T
tonyrey
Guest
None whatsoever - for criminals!An undesigned system is essentially amoral and meaningless.
None whatsoever - for criminals!An undesigned system is essentially amoral and meaningless.
An undesigned system is essentially amoral and meaningless.
Is there a problem with that?
Indeed. The fundamental message of Jesus is that suffering liberates us from evil if we have faith, hope and love. What appear to be flaws are the means by which we can follow His example and be united to Him. Pascal believed Jesus is in agony until the end of world because He has compassion for everyone who is afflicted whether they believe in him or not. The purpose of His mission on earth was to inspire us to follow His example in accepting whatever trials and tribulations we have to endure. He has transformed evil into a blessing…I tend to assume that things unfold as they should except for what we individually and as one humanity are called to do.
Looking about at the world around us, it is undeniably clear that we participate in systems: geological, astronomical, and biological, whose powers dwarf mankind. And we here, universally suffer and die. While frustrating our plans and desires, none of this interferes with God’s will for us.
Our losses are accompanied by a grief through which we come to see the truth more clearly of who we are and what is of real importance in our lives. Life confronts us head-on, and no illusion can satisfy the hurt. The emotional turmoil motivates us to change ourselves and the world, for the better. We are brought closer to the Foundation of our being, from earliest bargainings, to a full-fledged dialogue that brings peace and piercing insights into the nature of existence.
As the things of the world are revealed for the dross that they are, we have a choice, to cling to worthless flaws or follow the never-ending Source of joy and Life.
lemondiesel;14023761:
Aren’t both sides of the argument irrelevant?It would mean that nothing makes sense - including the assertion that the universe is amoral and meaningless.
In other words atheism and deism are self-contradictory and self-destructive.
tonyrey;14024951:
In a meaningless universe everything is irrelevant!Aren’t both sides of the argument irrelevant?
We could impose meaning but it would be wishful thinking in a futile attempt to conceal the eternal darkness from which we would come and to which we would return…
lemondiesel;14033947:
Correction:In a meaningless universe everything is irrelevant!
We could impose meaning but it would be wishful thinking in a futile attempt to conceal the eternal darkness from which we would come and to which we would return…
We could impose meaning but it would be wishful thinking in a futile attempt to conceal the eternal darkness from which we **would have **come and to which we would return…
(unfulfilled condition)
But you’re the only one who has tried to impose meaning by insisting there’s a purpose to everything.Correction:
We could impose meaning but it would be wishful thinking in a futile attempt to conceal the eternal darkness from which we **would have **come and to which we would return…
(unfulfilled condition)
Please cite my statement to that effect.But you’re the only one who has tried to impose meaning by insisting there’s a purpose to everything.
In previous posts I have pointed out misfortunes often serve no useful purpose whatsoever. There is an element of chance within the framework of Design. I have criticised Calvin’s statement that not a drop of rain falls without the express command of God, a view which makes the Creator directly responsible for all the disasters in the world.But you’re the only one who has tried to impose meaning by insisting there’s a purpose to everything.
In a meaningless universe everything is irrelevant!Aren’t both sides of the argument irrelevant?
C.S. Lewis: Christian ApologistCorrection:
In a meaningless universe everything is irrelevant!We could impose meaning but it would be wishful thinking in a futile attempt to conceal the eternal darkness from which we would come and to which we would return…
Plain common sense! What people don’t mention is often far more significant than all their statements. Our power of reason is taken for granted but it is one of the greatest miracles in the universe…C.S. Lewis: Christian Apologist
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?… Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too–for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist – in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless – I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality – namely my idea of justice – was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”
Taking your example of cancer, one may look at the disease not as a design flaw but rather as an invader that causes design degradation.Disabilities in people and animals, diseases like cancer and Alzheimer’s, as well as other things which seem to be design flaws.
If he could not create the world without these things, he is not all powerful. Or would He want suffering in the world? Then He would be evil.
How can we reconcile these seemingly flaws of design with possible intelligent design by God?
The reference to death pertains to humans. Humans are capable of sin.Disabilities in people and animals, diseases like cancer and Alzheimer’s, as well as other things which seem to be design flaws.
If he could not create the world without these things, he is not all powerful. Or would He want suffering in the world? Then He would be evil.
How can we reconcile these seemingly flaws of design with possible intelligent design by God?
(Sorry if this is in the wrong sub forum, mods please move it if it is!)
The CAF search finds your post #112 etc. But why do you ask? If you believe God is a designer then surely no designer can design without purpose. And so essence would precede existence, and all people would inevitably find the same purpose and meaning.Please cite my statement to that effect.
God’s plan **includes **purposeless coincidences which are inevitable in an immensely complex universe.The CAF search finds your post #112 etc. But why do you ask? If you believe God is a designer then surely no designer can design without purpose. And so essence would precede existence, and all people would inevitably find the same purpose and meaning.
It doesn’t follow that everyone finds precisely the same purpose and meaning because everyone is different in some respect or other. We have different talents and vocations but we all have the same fundamental purpose: to know, love and serve God and His creatures.But we don’t, each person works out his own meaning, it seems that existence precedes essence, and “man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards” (Sartre).
A false dilemma as I have just pointed out.Did God give us free will to have meaning imposed on us or to each find our own meaning?
A false dilemma as I have just pointed out.