How can we rely on Sola Scriptura if the Bible has so many conflicting ideas?

[StevenFrancis]

Even within the New Testament, the Bible has more than a few contradictions. I believe that the Bible is sacred and divinely inspired, but the idea of “Sola Scriptura” means that we all need to be theological scholars to understand the intricacies of the text, doesn’t it? What about your “Average Joe/Jane” who works 12 hours a day, gets home and spends time with family/household chores/taking care of kids, and then might get maybe ten minutes to read the Word before turning in for the night.

I’ve heard of countless people who have tried to find the “truth” by themselves with just their Bible, and end up confused and disheartened.

I myself have made the Bible a huge part of my life, but even I feel I can look at it and, based on what’s going on in my life or who I am associating with, take a different thing out of it from one point or another.

Surely this points to the need for guidance from people who devote their entire lives to God, who can shepherd us in the right direction? And let’s not forget that we in North America and Europe are privileged to be able to read. How does Sola Scriptura stand up for the masses upon masses of people who cannot?

Well, you can’t rely on sola scriptura. It’s a flawed tenet of the reformation, and doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. I think you have largely answered your own questions WITH your own questions. Anyway, God bless. I will read this thread and see what it’s defenders have to say.

 

[Lizz02]

Hi Lizz 02: You are welcome. I get the point you were trying to make and it makes sense. You are correct about human nature, and think it would be hard not to know if one committed a mortal sin.

^ Well, if you have committed mortal sin, it means that you have greatly affected another person by leading him towards sin too. That’s what I know.

 

[spina1953]

Frequently it seems among some who seem to think and reproachfully charge the Sacred Writers with some historical error or inaccuracy in the recording of facts, on closer examination it turns out to be nothing else than those customary modes of expression and narration peculiar to the ancients which used to be employed in the mutual dealings of social life and which in fact were sanctioned by common usage. When then such modes of expression are met with in the sacred text, which, being meant for men, is couched in human language, justice demands that they be no more taxed with error than when they occur in the ordinary intercourse of daily life.

Scripture is not principally a history book, nor is it a textbook on science, biology, cosmology etc. Scripture is the faith document of a believing community. Scripture contains God’s Word in the words of men. The truth of Scripture is the truth that leads to salvation The Bible isn’t teaching every manner of truth. The truth of Scripture must be considered in the light content and unity of the whole of Scripture as well as in light of the living tradition of the whole Church.

 

[joe371]

And why is the magisterium/Pope as final arbiter a better option?

In your opinion, is there a better person, working in conjunction with other bishops?

Peter is the Rock: The gates of hell (our worst enemy) will never prevail against Jesus’ church built on Cephas, who was the only one given the keys to Jesus’ kingdom, the Church, which is in an imperfect state, and we know what that means from Isiah 22; he is the prime minister while king Jesus is away.

He said to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The other apostles form the foundation as well: Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Those are very powerful words spoken to the apostles alone.

CCC “The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.”

Heaven and earth will pass away, giving way to:

Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

 

[solarguy17]

In your opinion, is there a better person, working in conjunction with other bishops?

Peter is the Rock: \QUOTE]

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not.

No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course), using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter is a recipe for a broken and flawed church. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not.

No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course), using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter is a recipe for a broken and flawed church. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God.

Jesus Himself established His Church on Peter, not anyone else. Jesus Himself prayed for Peter’s role in leadership.

Isaiah 22 discusses the handing of keys of authority. Jesus possessed those keys and gave them to Peter as a holder of an office among the rest of the Apostles

 

[spina1953]

joe371;11975607:

In your opinion, is there a better person, working in conjunction with other bishops?

Peter is the Rock: \QUOTE]

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not.

No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course), using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter is a recipe for a broken and flawed church. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God.

Hi solarguy: If what you say is true then why did Jesus tell Peter that he would build His Church on him (Peter)? And also if what you say is true then all Churches are build on man and so all are then flawed and can not be relied on to bring the truth.

 

[Nicea325]

joe371;11975607:

In your opinion, is there a better person, working in conjunction with other bishops?

Peter is the Rock: \QUOTE]

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not.

No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course), using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter is a recipe for a broken and flawed church. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God

.

And here is where you are error. The CC has never taught the church was founded by Peter,but Christ. Peter never founded ANY Church, he was not Protestant.

 

[marywarfield]

solarguy17;11976017:

And here is where you are error. The CC has never taught the church was founded by Peter,but Christ. Peter never founded ANY Church, he was not Protestant.

There are a couple glaring errors. Jesus told ONE
man to feed His sheep. He did not tell anyone or
everyone to do so.
It stands to reason since Jesus did NOTHING without
a reason there was a significant reason for His speech
to Peter.

Did Peter found a Church? No, he simply continued
and guarded what Christ founded.

In attempting to make scripture the overriding authority
people such as Calvin and Luther and now Bible only laity
need to do is use the same man based reasoning processes
to reach their OWN Traditions in conflict with the
historical traditions of the Church.

One of the silliest arguments for Bible only or Sola
Scriptura is it keeps one from following
man made Traditions. That is silly simply
because Sola Scriptura itself is an entirely
man made Tradition by virtue of how it came to be.
How do we know that it is a man made tradition?
It’s not anywhere in Scripture and not taught or
utilized by the NT or OT. Lol.

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea325;11977145:

There are a couple glaring errors. Jesus told ONE
man to feed His sheep. He did not tell anyone or
everyone to do so.
It stands to reason since Jesus did NOTHING without
a reason there was a significant reason for His speech
to Peter.

Did Peter found a Church? No, he simply continued
and guarded what Christ founded.

In attempting to make scripture the overriding authority
people such as Calvin and Luther and now Bible only laity
need to do is use the same man based reasoning processes
to reach their OWN Traditions in conflict with the
historical traditions of the Church.

One of the silliest arguments for Bible only or Sola
Scriptura is it keeps one from following
man made Traditions. That is silly simply
because Sola Scriptura itself is an entirely
man made Tradition by virtue of how it came to be.
How do we know that it is a man made tradition?
It’s not anywhere in Scripture and not taught or
utilized by the NT or OT. Lol.

Exactly! If SS is not a man-made tradition and its an Apostolic Tradition,then it is one Tradition which has gone wayward. Precisely why IT IS NOT an Apostolic Tradition!

 

[JRKH]

joe371;11975607:

In your opinion, is there a better person, working in conjunction with other bishops?

Peter is the Rock:

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not. No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course),

I see you attend a church of Christ. Me Too…Mine’s Catholic. (couldn’t resist).

Totally agree with you that man is not perfect. Only God is perfect. In fact, the Catholic Church would totally agree with you on this as well. Nothing in Catholic teaching declares any man - even the Pope to be perfect.

…using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

Interesting analogy - except for one flaw. The Catholic Church is not founded on the “foundation” of Peter. Its foundation is Jesus Christ. This is clearly stated in Catholic teaching.

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter is a recipe for a broken and flawed church. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God.

Again - we are in total agreement. Founding a Church on a man would indeed be folly.

Thanks for expressing Catholic teaching so well…

Peace
James

 

[joe371]

solarguy

Yes, God is better person. God is perfect, man is not.

So God is better than fallible teachers such as the apostles? Agreed. :thumbsup:Surely you agree that God uses fallible people, beginning with the apostles, to teach infallible truth - right?

No man is or ever has been perfect (except Jesus of course), using Peter as the rock (or foundation) of the church is when my hometown decided to build a road of a bog. For years it sank and and got destroyed. They tried many time resurfacing it, adding more supports, inject more stabilizer, but nothing worked. Until the sank supports down over a hundred feet to the bedrock, only this did the road stabilize.

All men are fallible, except Jesus - agreed.

I am sorry to hear about your home-town crisis. What’s your point though?

Building your church with the foundation of a man, whether that man is Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Buddha, Alexander Cambell, or even the Apostle Peter** is a recipe for a broken and flawed church**. Only when you rely on God can you truly be with God.

Sounds like you have a problem with scripture, not Christians belonging to the CC:

Eph. 2 - "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Remember, the Catholic Church was established by Jesus, not Peter or anyone else; it’s His church as per Matthew 16; Jesus said: “I will build my church…”

 

[joe371]

I see you attend a church of Christ. Me Too…Mine’s Catholic. (couldn’t resist).

Totally agree with you that man is not perfect. Only God is perfect. In fact, the Catholic Church would totally agree with you on this as well. Nothing in Catholic teaching declares any man - even the Pope to be perfect.

Interesting analogy - except for one flaw. The Catholic Church is not founded on the “foundation” of Peter. Its foundation is Jesus Christ. This is clearly stated in Catholic teaching.

Again - we are in total agreement. Founding a Church on a man would indeed be folly.

Thanks for expressing Catholic teaching so well…

Peace
James

:yup::yup::yup:

 

[spina1953]

In Matthew 16: 18-19 Jesus tells Peter that he will build His Church. In Luke 22:31-32 Jesus says to Peter I have prayed for you that you faith may never fail. You in turn must strengthen your brothers. Now when one really gets down to understanding these passages it becomes very obvious that Jesus is going to build His Church on the Peter the Rock, not that Peter is going to build the Church. Since Peter could be weak at times was no reason why Jesus could not build His Church on the Rock of Peter. Because Peter could be weak at times, Peter then would know that his fellow Apostles could be weak at times and those they have chosen to take their place then it was up to Peter and his successors to strengthen them. We know that all of the Apostles except Judas Iscariot, taught and preached the Good news and we also know that few wrote anything and that St. John said that not everything Jesus taught and preached and did was recorded or written down but only that which might bring to believe. This is another reason why SS does not work because there are things that Jesus taught that were not written down so that by tradition it is still taught. Also it says much in those passages that it was and is Jesus’ intent that Peter be the head of His Church. There is nothing that says that the Church was built by Peter or any man but only Christ Himself through peter and His Apostles.

 

[solarguy17]

Interesting, there are several posters claiming that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter and that he is the Rock the church is built on, but other posts saying the exact opposite, and all are Catholic.
This is the problem with no just relying on the Bible, people have conflicting ideas and there is nothing to back them up but other men’s opinions that have also differed and changed over the past 2000 years.

The one that that is unchaining is God and His Word. Thats why so many people are turning toward the Sola Scriptura idea now. People see various churches (not just Catholic) all teaching different things (even with in the same faith system, note the synods of Luthernism all are different), they ask themselves, “why is everyone different?” The only true Rock we can go back to is Jesus and the Bible that was written by inspired men.

The fact is there are many thing in the past that are blatantly against Jesus’s commandments, (Crusades anyone?) and there are still things being done today that are unBiblical.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Bible does not have conflicting ideas if you are understanding it in the way Christ’s only instituted Church teaches you.

The Catholic Church does not look at the Bible as a book containing fragments of thought that are disconnected and disjointed.

The Catholic Church sees not so much the Bible…I think there are sects that worship the Bible in itself as they create so many new divisions from its text…

The Catholic Church teaches that Sacred Scriptures is Logos, the Living Word of God and God does not contradict Himself from one book to another. There is unitive of thought, albeit, at a deeper mystical level, this mysticism we experience in the Eucharist and pondering the words of Scripture that bring us deeper into the mysteries of Christ’s life within us.

Every phrase, every word is connected to the content of the Word of God as a whole. We have theologians who help us understand Scripture as a whole and in light of the conditions of the world today. God did not abandon us to darkness and confusion.

There is the science of hermaneutics, where the Holy Spirit goes back into the Old Testament and illuminates that condition through the presence of Christ Himself, where it all makes sense.

Finally, God only reveals Himself to a gathering of people through those He chooses, they accountable to Him before believers.

There have been many since the beginning of Sola Scriptura who have gone off on their own interpretations beholden to no one and causing so much damage by divisions and bigotry.

People who question the Church and doubt it follows Scripture, really are at the point of inquiry to get hold of a Catholic Church Catechism and see how our beliefs and practices come from Sacred Scripture and not some group of men making up things as they go along.

And then there are levels of understanding in which to approach Scripture. You have to take into account the context of the times and history to better understand the Word of God.

The Sacred Scripture are not intended for an individual to get hold of a Bible and begin understanding it by one’s self. Rather, God has called us to community and guidance where we learn about Him together with one another.

 

[JonNC]

Interesting, there are several posters claiming that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter and that he is the Rock the church is built on, but other posts saying the exact opposite, and all are Catholic.
This is the problem with no just relying on the Bible, people have conflicting ideas and there is nothing to back them up but other men’s opinions that have also differed and changed over the past 2000 years.

The one that that is unchaining is God and His Word. Thats why so many people are turning toward the Sola Scriptura idea now. People see various churches (not just Catholic) all teaching different things (even with in the same faith system, note the synods of Luthernism all are different), they ask themselves, “why is everyone different?” The only true Rock we can go back to is Jesus and the Bible that was written by inspired men.

The fact is there are many thing in the past that are blatantly against Jesus’s commandments, (Crusades anyone?) and there are still things being done today that are unBiblical.

So, I take it you agree with everyone. If not, don’t you also fit into the category of “everyone is different”?

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Interesting, there are several posters claiming that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter and that he is the Rock the church is built on, but other posts saying the exact opposite, and all are Catholic.
**This is the problem with no just relying on the Bible, people have conflicting ideas **and there is nothing to back them up but other men’s opinions that have also differed and changed over the past 2000 years.

The one that that is unchaining is God and His Word. Thats why so many people are turning toward the Sola Scriptura idea now. People see various churches (not just Catholic) all teaching different things (even with in the same faith system, note the synods of Luthernism all are different), they ask themselves, “why is everyone different?” The only true Rock we can go back to is Jesus and the Bible that was written by inspired men.

The fact is there are many thing in the past that are blatantly against Jesus’s commandments, (Crusades anyone?) and there are still things being done today that are unBiblical.

Can you show us these posts which claim Peter founded the Catholic Church? I myself will refute that claim. It is not Catholic Teaching. No matter what “Catholics claim” it does not make it Catholic Teaching.

The Bible is considered the highest Authority by the Catholic Church. That doesnt mean the Council of the Bishops together, or an Ex Cathedra decree from the pope does not have an equal binding authority. But it does mean that they cannot contradict one another.

The Catholic Church herself does not Teach that Peter founded the Church on himself! That is a rediculous notion!

 

[marywarfield]

Interesting, there are several posters claiming that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter and that he is the Rock the church is built on, but other posts saying the exact opposite, and all are Catholic.
This is the problem with no just relying on the Bible, people have conflicting ideas and there is nothing to back them up but other men’s opinions that have also differed and changed over the past 2000 years.

The one that that is unchaining is God and His Word. Thats why so many people are turning toward the Sola Scriptura idea now. People see various churches (not just Catholic) all teaching different things (even with in the same faith system, note the synods of Luthernism all are different), they ask themselves, “why is everyone different?” The only true Rock we can go back to is Jesus and the Bible that was written by inspired men.

The fact is there are many thing in the past that are blatantly against Jesus’s commandments, (Crusades anyone?) and there are still things being done today that are unBiblical.

Naive much? Not everyone calling themselves catholic
on this thread are actually Catholics. Lol.

 

[rcwitness]

Can you show us these posts which claim Peter founded the Catholic Church?** I myself will refute that claim.**

Sorry :imsorry:

I meant we will refute that claim! :yup: