R
How can we rely on Sola Scriptura if the Bible has so many conflicting ideas?
- Status
S
spina1953
Guest
Hi rc witness: Good for you and I am with you in refuting any such claims that are made that it was Peter who founded the Church
It seems to me that while on earth, Jesus Himself never, so far as we know, wrote a line of Scripture, certainly none that has been preserved. he never told His Apostles to write anything. he did not command them to commit to writing what he had delivered to them, but he said, “Go you and teach all nations,” preach the Gospel to every nation," he that hears you hears Me."
What Jesus commanded and meant them to do was precisely what he had done Himself, deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice, convince, persuade, instruct, convert them by addressing themselves face to face to living men and women, not entrust their message to a dead book which might perish and be destroyed and be misunderstood and misrepresented and misinterpreted and corrupted, but adopt the more safe and natural way of presenting the truth to them by word of mouth and the training others to do the same after they themselves were gone and so, by a living tradition, preserving and handing down the Word of God, as they has received it, to all generations.
This was, as a matter of fact, the method that the Apostles used. Only five out of 12 wrote down anything at all that was has been preserved to us; and that not a line was penned till at least ten years after the death of Christ. The Church and the faith existed before the Bible; which is a collection of inspired books not a book. Thousands of people became Christians through the work of the Apostles and missionaries of Christ in various lands, and believed the whole truth of God as we believe it now; before ever they saw or read, or could possibly see or read, a single sentence of inspired Scripture of the New Testament, for the simple reason that such Scripture did not then exist.
The books of the New testament were produced and called forth by special circumstances that arose, were written to meet particular demands and emergencies. Nothing was further from the minds of the Apostles and evangelists than the idea of composing works which should be collected and formed into one volume and so constitute the Holy Book of the Christians. The Apostles would be amazed and also St. Paul to find that what they did write is inspired Scripture and of those who think that it contains all that they were taught and handed down while they were still alive.
It seems to me that while on earth, Jesus Himself never, so far as we know, wrote a line of Scripture, certainly none that has been preserved. he never told His Apostles to write anything. he did not command them to commit to writing what he had delivered to them, but he said, “Go you and teach all nations,” preach the Gospel to every nation," he that hears you hears Me."
What Jesus commanded and meant them to do was precisely what he had done Himself, deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice, convince, persuade, instruct, convert them by addressing themselves face to face to living men and women, not entrust their message to a dead book which might perish and be destroyed and be misunderstood and misrepresented and misinterpreted and corrupted, but adopt the more safe and natural way of presenting the truth to them by word of mouth and the training others to do the same after they themselves were gone and so, by a living tradition, preserving and handing down the Word of God, as they has received it, to all generations.
This was, as a matter of fact, the method that the Apostles used. Only five out of 12 wrote down anything at all that was has been preserved to us; and that not a line was penned till at least ten years after the death of Christ. The Church and the faith existed before the Bible; which is a collection of inspired books not a book. Thousands of people became Christians through the work of the Apostles and missionaries of Christ in various lands, and believed the whole truth of God as we believe it now; before ever they saw or read, or could possibly see or read, a single sentence of inspired Scripture of the New Testament, for the simple reason that such Scripture did not then exist.
The books of the New testament were produced and called forth by special circumstances that arose, were written to meet particular demands and emergencies. Nothing was further from the minds of the Apostles and evangelists than the idea of composing works which should be collected and formed into one volume and so constitute the Holy Book of the Christians. The Apostles would be amazed and also St. Paul to find that what they did write is inspired Scripture and of those who think that it contains all that they were taught and handed down while they were still alive.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Crusades…a comment was made about it.
People don’t realize that the Christians and pilgrims were being attacked by Seljuk Turks, and then a new sultan in Jerusalem that burnt the shrine of the Holy Sepulchre to the ground.
Christians had been crying out for help for 400 years before the Holy Father finally called up able men to go to the Holy Land to free it from Muslim aggression.
I would see that as an act of Christian heroism. Likewise Christians and even bishops had to fight the Dark Ages, which were anything but in the life of the Church and the emerging monasteries that supported the surrounding populations with their education in agriculture, irrigation, etc. The Dark Ages were called so, not because of darkness in the Church, but of the ongoing barbarian invasions that plundered and killed and destroyed peace.
Likewise, would it have been ungodly not to fight Naziism and communism??? that slaughtered millions of people? Just turn your back and let it happen??
We are now seeing so many ancient Christian communities being destroyed in the Middle East. Our country is likewise culpable as a leading component for the loss of the Christian presence in Iraq and Syria and other regions there.
Another great issue is that the Catholic Church follows the LXX version, the Septuagint interpretation that was developed 200 years before Christ, and was the Scripture of Our Lord and His apostles.
Luther’s greatest damage to Christianity is that he did not believe in the apostolic faith passed down generation after generation through the Holy Spirit in the Church Christ instituted.
Luther wanted the ‘pure’ Hebrew interpretation, and what it is…my spelling is not good…Mazoretic…was developed 200 years after Christ, the interpretation used by Jews who did not accept Christ as Messiah…ironic.
The Septuagint interpretation is labelled LXX, meaning 70, because that number represents the 70 rabbis who were called to Egypt by Emperor Ptolemy, who wanted to build the biggest library in the world. He had all 70 rabbis separated. They had their scribes. When they came back together, what was witnessed was a miracle.
The 70 rabbis all transcribed the books of the Bible word for word, all the same! This could only be the work of the Holy Spirit.
You then look at the Mazoretic text and there was alot of disunity and dissension among the rabbies 200 years after Christ in developing their interpretation that did not anticipate the Messiah as Christians do.
People don’t realize that the Christians and pilgrims were being attacked by Seljuk Turks, and then a new sultan in Jerusalem that burnt the shrine of the Holy Sepulchre to the ground.
Christians had been crying out for help for 400 years before the Holy Father finally called up able men to go to the Holy Land to free it from Muslim aggression.
I would see that as an act of Christian heroism. Likewise Christians and even bishops had to fight the Dark Ages, which were anything but in the life of the Church and the emerging monasteries that supported the surrounding populations with their education in agriculture, irrigation, etc. The Dark Ages were called so, not because of darkness in the Church, but of the ongoing barbarian invasions that plundered and killed and destroyed peace.
Likewise, would it have been ungodly not to fight Naziism and communism??? that slaughtered millions of people? Just turn your back and let it happen??
We are now seeing so many ancient Christian communities being destroyed in the Middle East. Our country is likewise culpable as a leading component for the loss of the Christian presence in Iraq and Syria and other regions there.
Another great issue is that the Catholic Church follows the LXX version, the Septuagint interpretation that was developed 200 years before Christ, and was the Scripture of Our Lord and His apostles.
Luther’s greatest damage to Christianity is that he did not believe in the apostolic faith passed down generation after generation through the Holy Spirit in the Church Christ instituted.
Luther wanted the ‘pure’ Hebrew interpretation, and what it is…my spelling is not good…Mazoretic…was developed 200 years after Christ, the interpretation used by Jews who did not accept Christ as Messiah…ironic.
The Septuagint interpretation is labelled LXX, meaning 70, because that number represents the 70 rabbis who were called to Egypt by Emperor Ptolemy, who wanted to build the biggest library in the world. He had all 70 rabbis separated. They had their scribes. When they came back together, what was witnessed was a miracle.
The 70 rabbis all transcribed the books of the Bible word for word, all the same! This could only be the work of the Holy Spirit.
You then look at the Mazoretic text and there was alot of disunity and dissension among the rabbies 200 years after Christ in developing their interpretation that did not anticipate the Messiah as Christians do.
J
JRKH
Guest
I will join with others here and ask you to please point out the posts here that claim the Church is founded BY Peter. If there are such posts, we need to clear this up because such people would be teaching error.
Overall I fear there may be some miscommunication going on.
What Catholics have to back them up, in addition to the Bible, is the teaching of the Church as contained in the Catechism. When one hears conflicting opinions from Catholics one need only turn to the official, documented Church teaching for clarification.
In this case - If there ARE people who claim the Church was founded by Peter it should only take a couple of minutes to clarify what they mean, and to determine if this fits iwth proper Catholic teaching.
So - in the last 500 years (the age of Sola Scriptura) there haven’t been conflicting opinions"? Conflicting opinions ALL based firmly on Scripture??
Agreed - God is unchanging as is His Word who is Jesus Christ.
Yes - and I suspect that they will find the same thing the decedents of the original reformers found…That relying Scripture alone and private (or small group) interpretation will simply NOT lead to the unified Church that Holy Spirit calls fro through the NT writers
you bring out a very important point here and demonstrate by it just how unbiblical the protestant reformation was (and is).
The question is whether, in going back to “Jesus and the Bible” will they be able to avoid the same mistakes made by their Sola Scriptura predecessors.
My prayer is that they will - but my suspicion is that they will not.
The key in this will be whether they actually recognize in reading scripture that Christ DID found an authoritative Church intended to visibly and universally resolve matters of doctrinal disagreement.
AND
If they can do this without prejudices against any previous group or structure.
Do you believe that such can occur?
Truly - None are immune to sin. We are all aware of this.
You mention the Crusades - Others can likewise be mentioned. The Native Americans were not treated in a Christian manner nor were the black slaves taken from Africa. And in these things both Catholics and Protestants are equally guilty.
Peace
James
K
KathleenGee
Guest
To those in Brasil.
The highest level of truth is in the interpreter who has the understanding of Scripture given it by Christ – to the apostles.
We go back to Emmaus when Christ was not recognized, walking with the apostles who at that time did not recognize Him. He then came to their camp and taught them everything.
It is this ‘teaching them everything’ that makes the Church the first level of truth in understanding Christ in Scripture. After all, Scripture fulfills Jesus as the Living Word of God.
The Scripture is all about leading us to Jesus and being in Him to gain eternal life.
So it is this body of apostolic faith, only the apostles being the ones Christ chose, who spent time with Him for 3.5 years, learning and becoming His disciples. This is the Oral Tradition.
The Holy Spirit works through the Church to guide us in understanding Scripture the way Christ intends us to.
Again, it is the Holy Spirit working through the apostolic Church, that brings us to truth of understanding Scripture.
All of our understanding of Christ, of Scripture and its perspective, morality, the sacraments, and prayer are found in the universal Catholic catechism, the second degree of truth. Here we see how Scripture is broken down, first from how we interpret Scripture, then to God and Man, then to Jesus Christ, to morality and sacraments, and then finally prayer which must center always on the will of God.
The third degree of truth are the papal encyclicals but not all are equal or carry the same weight. Here we depend on our local bishop to guide us as to what perspective to take an encyclical.
The highest level of truth is in the interpreter who has the understanding of Scripture given it by Christ – to the apostles.
We go back to Emmaus when Christ was not recognized, walking with the apostles who at that time did not recognize Him. He then came to their camp and taught them everything.
It is this ‘teaching them everything’ that makes the Church the first level of truth in understanding Christ in Scripture. After all, Scripture fulfills Jesus as the Living Word of God.
The Scripture is all about leading us to Jesus and being in Him to gain eternal life.
So it is this body of apostolic faith, only the apostles being the ones Christ chose, who spent time with Him for 3.5 years, learning and becoming His disciples. This is the Oral Tradition.
The Holy Spirit works through the Church to guide us in understanding Scripture the way Christ intends us to.
Again, it is the Holy Spirit working through the apostolic Church, that brings us to truth of understanding Scripture.
All of our understanding of Christ, of Scripture and its perspective, morality, the sacraments, and prayer are found in the universal Catholic catechism, the second degree of truth. Here we see how Scripture is broken down, first from how we interpret Scripture, then to God and Man, then to Jesus Christ, to morality and sacraments, and then finally prayer which must center always on the will of God.
The third degree of truth are the papal encyclicals but not all are equal or carry the same weight. Here we depend on our local bishop to guide us as to what perspective to take an encyclical.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Im listening
Interesting breakdown. Would be interesting to discuss, but maybe not in this thread? Not that its completely irrelavent.
Last Sunday’s reading! Very cool! Simple and profound, that little trek.
J
JRKH
Guest
Heard a really good homily on that story - the Road to Ammaus - Wish I could really remember it…Im listening
Interesting breakdown. Would be interesting to discuss, but maybe not in this thread? Not that its completely irrelavent.
Last Sunday’s reading! Very cool! Simple and profound, that little trek.
Father talked about how the disciples were walking away from Jerusalem from (discipleship) and they did not recognize Jesus when he began speaking to them. How He spoke with them but they still did not understand, then how when they stopped, He kept walking - until they invited him to stay (He doesn’t force himself on anyone). Only then, in the breaking of bread, did they recognize Him. Then, once they recognized Him, they HAD to return to Jerusalem - to discipleship and share the news.
The Homily was so much more full than this -
Peace
James
J
johnnyc176
Guest
It’s the Road to Emmaus. Here is a good write up by Msgr. Charles Pope…
blog.adw.org/2010/04/mass-on-the-move-the-hidden-mass-on-the-raod-to-emmaus/
And if you want to hear an excellent lecture pick up Dr. Brant Pitre’s 'The Road to Emmaus…
store.catholicproductions.com/the-road-to-emmaus-cd/
blog.adw.org/2010/04/mass-on-the-move-the-hidden-mass-on-the-raod-to-emmaus/
And if you want to hear an excellent lecture pick up Dr. Brant Pitre’s 'The Road to Emmaus…
store.catholicproductions.com/the-road-to-emmaus-cd/
R
rcwitness
Guest
Heard a really good homily on that story - the Road to** Ammaus** - Wish I could really remember it…
Peace
James
Yea, someone needs to open up their bible and pay more attention during homily! :ehh:
J
johnnyc176
Guest
I’m sure it was just a typo but you wanna get those vowels right especially when they cost 250 bucks.
J
JRKH
Guest
Well excuuuuse Meeeee…
M
marywarfield
Guest
Haha don’t you hate it when you blow the punch line?Heard a really good homily on that story - the Road to Ammaus - Wish I could really remember it…
Father talked about how the disciples were walking away from Jerusalem from (discipleship) and they did not recognize Jesus when he began speaking to them. How He spoke with them but they still did not understand, then how when they stopped, He kept walking - until they invited him to stay (He doesn’t force himself on anyone). Only then, in the breaking of bread, did they recognize Him. Then, once they recognized Him, they HAD to return to Jerusalem - to discipleship and share the news.
The Homily was so much more full than this -
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
Yes - - of course I thought people might be more interested in the content of the homily than my bad spelling…Haha don’t you hate it when you blow the punch line?
R
rcwitness
Guest
Well, we just dont get too many chances to bust an elder…Yes - - of course I thought people might be more interested in the content of the homily than my bad spelling…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
RC Witness,
When I said the interpreter is the first level of truth, I am repeating the teachings of my instructor who was heading a program to re-train or correct errors of those lay people in professional ministry. I was still caring for family but was invited to attend from just some small groups I had formed.
Our instructor was appointed by the Archbishop Levada who later took the place of Cardinal Ratzinger regarding orthodoxy of faith at the Vatican.
We could go back and say that first, Jesus Christ is Truth, and then I refer to ‘Veritatis Splendor’, written by JPII, who stated that morality cannot be defined philosophically, or in an erring and imperfect human being.
Morality is found in the person and the only true moral person is Jesus Christ.
So yes, God/Christ is absolute Truth. But our small human minds cannot comprehend Him, and so we need His interpretor…His Bride, The Church. These first degrees of truth is the truth of Jesus Christ coming to us through His Living Church that is founded on Peter and the Apostles, the only witnesses chosen by Our Lord to be the foundation of the Church…again a community of Chosen.
From the Church and the Councils and how the Church assembles the beliefs of Christ in the full deposit of Faith, we then go to the universal Catholic Catechism, the second degree of Truth. And then on to the encyclicals, and not all carry the same weight of truth.
When I said the interpreter is the first level of truth, I am repeating the teachings of my instructor who was heading a program to re-train or correct errors of those lay people in professional ministry. I was still caring for family but was invited to attend from just some small groups I had formed.
Our instructor was appointed by the Archbishop Levada who later took the place of Cardinal Ratzinger regarding orthodoxy of faith at the Vatican.
We could go back and say that first, Jesus Christ is Truth, and then I refer to ‘Veritatis Splendor’, written by JPII, who stated that morality cannot be defined philosophically, or in an erring and imperfect human being.
Morality is found in the person and the only true moral person is Jesus Christ.
So yes, God/Christ is absolute Truth. But our small human minds cannot comprehend Him, and so we need His interpretor…His Bride, The Church. These first degrees of truth is the truth of Jesus Christ coming to us through His Living Church that is founded on Peter and the Apostles, the only witnesses chosen by Our Lord to be the foundation of the Church…again a community of Chosen.
From the Church and the Councils and how the Church assembles the beliefs of Christ in the full deposit of Faith, we then go to the universal Catholic Catechism, the second degree of Truth. And then on to the encyclicals, and not all carry the same weight of truth.
- Status