How can we trust that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ben_Sinner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
i would also add that the term sent. certa. itself is a rendering of human judgment. it is primarily a means of distinguishing between what is essential to the faith from what is not essential to the faith.

it is not intended to convey that there is the chance that the belief or teaching might be mistaken or might have an element of error.

it is not necessary to even know of the teaching to be a faithful Catholic in full communion with the Church.
 
There is *no possibility *at all that such is not true.

Such is the words of Jesus Christ the Lord. Who is Truth.

Tis also the Sacred Scriptures.

Your being confused here by the Theological Notes used by certain Theologians writing in the past. Such are not per se from the Church. And one can misunderstand what they were meant to mean or not if one is not careful.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
How can we trust that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, when this isn’t even an infallible teaching of the Church?

According to the famous Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)

This teaching is “Sent. certa”. This means it can be assured to be true, but it isn’t infallible. So this means there is a very small chance that it isn’t true.

So basically the Church is stating that it isn’t infallibly certain that the gates of hell will never prevail against the church. If there is even a slight possibility that the gates can prevail, then we have to begin to question if the gates will prevail? Did the gates already prevail? Are they about to prevail?
Click to expand...
**God bless Ben and every readers of the CAF.

According to the famous Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma**

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)

**To do the analysis and to really understand what exactly the above statement means:

We must know the relating teachings of the Catholic Church,** such as Predestination of the Elect (which is in reality as the Elect is the Church, we can say: Predestination of the Church).

We need to know God’s protection of the Elect/Church, we also need to know the relating teachings of the Scriptures.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellation from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

Continue
 
Continuation

GOD’S THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

A CRUCIAL QUESTION

Does God’s gift of “Final Perseverance” protect the Elect/Church not to get into some kind of heresies?

**THE ANSWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

Matt.24:4, 11, 24;**

“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible, even the Elect. End quote.

As we see above, it is a possibility that the Elect/Church can be deceived and can believe (even teach) some heresies.

But we also know, this deception cannot be that serious that endanger the salvation of the Elect/Church, so “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, which the combined Elect.

The most serious deception of an the Elect can be, all his work can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

Continue
 
Continuation

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.

**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS

“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.

The works we must do we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.

The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love.

The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others.

This the only work rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).

For easy understanding consider, our work as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.

The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others.

And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.

Continue
 
Continuation

**FOR WHAT REASONS, OUR WORKS DONE FOR OUR SALVATION IS WOOD, HAY AND STRAW?

ANSWER**

Because our salvation is God’s free gift, RECEIVED FREELY from God hands, in faith.

Even our ability to receive God’s gift of Formed faith is also God’s gift.

Salvation/Justification takes place by Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.

As we see above the balance between faith and works about justification/salvation is 100 % faith and 0 % works.

The above balance makes the possibility for us Catholics that our works could be 100 % supernatural merit, all 100 % works could be done freely out of sheer love for the Glory of God and out of sheer love for others.
This is the only works which is good works/supernatural works.

If we continue to believe our salvation is Faith + Works, (because we don’t know how much work is enough for our salvation) highly likely at the judgment of our works all our works goes up in smoke because all our works done for our salvation or for to keep our salvation and as the results all our work is wood, hay and straw.

IF WE DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED ELECT AND WE WANT TO DO GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS IT IS CRUCIAL TO BELIEVE

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

D) Certainly, "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
  1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
SUMMARY

ANALYSIS OF OTT’S FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA

1. The Church is indefectible. (The combined Elect is the Church.)

Yes the Church is indefectible, this doesn’t mean an Elect/Church cannot be deceived in some kind of degree and to believe and teach some kind of heresies.

This heresies only can destroy the Elect peace, mental health, and supernatural merit but can NEVER DESTROY the salvation of an Elect. – It is Eternally Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

The above protection protects the Salvation/Everlasting life of the Elect but doesn’t protect the Elect from limited deceptions.

According to Christ’s COMMAND: The Elect MUST PERSONALLY protect themselves from deceptions. Please see: 1 Thess.5:21; 1 John 2:26-27; Matt.24:4, 11, 24; Matt.7:15-16; etc. etc.

2. The Church remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation. – It is true but the Church not yet perfect.

How could be the Church perfect, when the members/Elect are not yet perfect?

The decree of the perfection of the Elect is the decree of the perfection of the Church.

Same truth applies for the denominations, if the Elect deceived some degree, the denomination is deceived in the same degree, but this degree of deception can never cause the elect the loss of their Salvation/Everlasting life. **– Salvation/Everlasting life of the Elect is Eternally Protected!!! **

It is a possibility (and fact) that some denominations teach some limited deceptions “for practical reasons,” such as for control, for financial gains, etc. which can cause the loss of supernatural merit of the Elect or loss of their peace and mental health, put them into fear and paralyzed state, can cause spiritual starvations which culminates in mass exodus from some denominations to the other denominations.

3. The Church is founded by Christ, until the end of the world. – The Church is Eternally Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, so, ‘The gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church/Elect ’ which is the combined Elect.

It makes no differences which Christian denominations the Elect are members, Catholic, Protestant, etc. and those Elect who never heard the Gospel and neither members of any denominations, living on a deserted island or in the Amazon rainforest, yet they are members of the Church/Body of Christ. – CCC 848, 1271, etc.

God bless Ben and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
 
LatinRight said:
Continuation
(…)
LatinRight
Click to expand...
YIKES :eek:

LatinRight,
In all due charity, making such a protracted post, directly quoting an entire entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia over three posts is overkill - you lost your audience!

Even I found it t be a long read, much of which doesn’t add to what has already been posted earlier in this thread.

I reality, you only need to post the hyperlink to the article and perhaps a few salient excerpts to support your position. IMHO, most of us are more interested in your commentary and not in reading an entry from the CE.
 
It is an evil generation which demands a sign (proof). Simple childlike faith, combined with adult reason,leads to the hope which matures into love of God and absolute trust in His promises.
 
po18guy said:
It is an evil generation which demands a sign (proof). Simple childlike faith, combined with adult reason,leads to the hope which matures into love of God and absolute trust in His promises.
Click to expand...
Was Thomas evil?
John 20:24-25 (DR)
24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

This generation is no more evil than the last; perhaps, they are more tempted by evil than even Eve was when the serpent led us to our fall. Even the Thessalonians were instructed to be careful in what they believed:
1 Thessalonians 5:20-25
20 Despise not prophecies.
21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves. 23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He is faithful who hath called you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

There is no harm in questioning our faith, we are creatures of reason and as such, we need reason and reassurance otherwise there would never have been a need for the miracles, apparitions, or saints.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
How can we trust that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, when this isn’t even an infallible teaching of the Church?

According to the famous Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)

This teaching is “Sent. certa”. This means it can be assured to be true, but it isn’t infallible. So this means there is a very small chance that it isn’t true.

So basically the Church is stating that it isn’t infallibly certain that the gates of hell will never prevail against the church. If there is even a slight possibility that the gates can prevail, then we have to begin to question if the gates will prevail? Did the gates already prevail? Are they about to prevail?
Click to expand...
Would you please post the page number or chapter where this is found. I have Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. I would like to read it in context.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
How can we trust that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, when this isn’t even an infallible teaching of the Church?

According to the famous Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)

This teaching is “Sent. certa”. This means it can be assured to be true, but it isn’t infallible. So this means there is a very small chance that it isn’t true.

So basically the Church is stating that it isn’t infallibly certain that the gates of hell will never prevail against the church. If there is even a slight possibility that the gates can prevail, then we have to begin to question if the gates will prevail? Did the gates already prevail? Are they about to prevail?
Click to expand...
I think you’re confusing the theological claim of infallibility with epistemological certainty–a common confusion in modern Western Christianity.

For the Church to claim that something is infallible does not make you certain beyond a doubt, because your conclusion that the Church is true is still your conclusion and should be wrong.

So the absolute certainty you’re looking for is logically impossible. Just accept that and move on with the life of faith. That’s not what infallibility is there for (to give you a certainty that is beyond all possible doubt).

Edwin
 
z_0101 said:
Was Thomas evil?
John 20:24-25 (DR)
24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

This generation is no more evil than the last; perhaps, they are more tempted by evil than even Eve was when the serpent led us to our fall. Even the Thessalonians were instructed to be careful in what they believed:
1 Thessalonians 5:20-25
20 Despise not prophecies.
21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves. 23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He is faithful who hath called you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

There is no harm in questioning our faith, we are creatures of reason and as such, we need reason and reassurance otherwise there would never have been a need for the miracles, apparitions, or saints.
Click to expand...
Thomas was the first recorded instance of missing mass.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top