How Can You and i be Perfect?

[Angainor]

This is exactly my point.

And I’m not asking “Who then can be saved?” The answer is anyone who follows Christ’s instructions to “Be perfect”, and seeks forgiveness when he falls short of perfection.

I think you and I are on the same page.

Peace,
Dante

Sort of…

I don’t think anyone “follows Christ’s instructions to ‘Be perfect’”, but seeking forgiveness is right on.

 

[mike182d]

By definition, human beings cannot be “perfect” by virtue of the fact that they are not God. Only God is perfect in being and we, as contingent beings, are inherently imperfect (note: imperfection is not the same thing as “sinful.” Adam and Eve were imperfect before they had sinned).

Thus, to understand perfection, we have to understand in what way God is perfect through His incarnation as the person of Jesus Christ. And how does Christ reveal the nature of perfection? Humility. God, the Creator of the cosmos, King of all that exists and ever will, chose to be born in a filthy stable, live in poverty with the “least” of human beings, and die a traitor’s death on the cross.

Christ is not commanding us to perfect in word or deed, for this is impossible, but in humility. It doesn’t mean never sinning (such scrupulosity will drive one mad, like Martin Luther) but having the *humility *to return back to Christ, like the prodigal son, when we do. We must always give all of ourselves to the Father, who is the source of perfection.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

By definition, human beings cannot be “perfect” by virtue of the fact that they are not God. Only God is perfect in being and we, as contingent beings, are inherently imperfect (note: imperfection is not the same thing as “sinful.” Adam and Eve were imperfect before they had sinned).

Thus, to understand perfection, we have to understand in what way God is perfect through His incarnation as the person of Jesus Christ. And how does Christ reveal the nature of perfection? Humility. God, the Creator of the cosmos, King of all that exists and ever will, chose to be born in a filthy stable, live in poverty with the “least” of human beings, and die a traitor’s death on the cross.

Christ is not commanding us to perfect in word or deed, for this is impossible, but in humility. It doesn’t mean never sinning (such scrupulosity will drive one mad, like Martin Luther) but having the *humility *to return back to Christ, like the prodigal son, when we do. We must always give all of ourselves to the Father, who is the source of perfection.

Touche. Nice point.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Yes that is what I am suggesting the passage means. It is pretty clear. You sound a lot like Jesus’ disciples after Jesus explained to the rich man what he must do to get into heaven."…Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
Matthew 19:24-25
Now,And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28
The Good News is that Jesus freely offers total forgiveness of those sins that would otherwise keep us out of heaven. Transgressions get blotted out like they were never there.for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:23-24

It is His love that saves us.

It is our new heart that uses His love that saves us.

We have to use His love to be saved.

We have to use our new hearts to be saved.

Love is first!

Love is greatest.

God so loved the world that He sent His only Begotten Son.

God is love.

God’s Word of Love is spoken into our hearts.

Love is heard by faith. In other words, love is believed by faith.

Love is in charge of faith.

We now share or partake in the Divine nature.

Again, God’s love poured into our new hearts saves us.

When we consent (believe) to His love, we will be saved.

God’s Love completes/perfects us.

We do not have to love God “perfectly” to be saved. Jesus only said: love God and you will have eternal life.

My infant baby is a perfect human being, that is, complete.

We are now adopted children of God. We partake in the Divine nature. We are saved by His LOVE poured into our new hearts.

The old self, or old Adam died with Christ in our baptism.

 

[Angainor]

The old self, or old Adam died with Christ in our baptism.

Agreed! But you have a round-about way of getting to your point. I really have no idea what you meant by all that other “We have to use our new hearts” kind of stuff.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I want to thank everyone for joining the discussion, whether or not you did so for my benefit. For i see that i shall benefit from the fact that God has provided those who have opposing views. This makes it possible for me to see the issue examined from many sides and determine for myself who comes closer to the Jesus, who said that He is the truth.

The passage i asked you to help me understand is, of course, Matthew 5:48, and understand it i hope i will, before this discussion is through.

"So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)

The first question, again, is what did Jesus mean? And the second, and perhaps deeper one, is how can this be accomplished?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There seems to be much disagreement about how to answer the questions. There are Catholics on one side, at least one Protestant on another side, at least one skeptic on another side, and then there is me, who is undecided.

Although there are opposing views, there is one truth on which we all can agree, i think, namely this: There are perhaps only four possibilities in determining the truth of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48, and these are:

(1) The Bible is untrue (e.g., the author misquoted Jesus, or the author fabricated these words, or the translators of the New Testament made errors in their translation of Matthew, chapter 5).

(2) The Catholic Catechism is untrue (e.g., the authors of the Catechism misunderstood what Jesus meant in Matthew, chapter 5).

(3) One’s interpretation of the Roman Catholic Catechism is incorrect (e.g., One of us might be misinterpreting the intentions of the writers of the Catechism).

(4) One’s interpretation of the Bible is incorrect (e.g., the words of Christ were correctly quoted by the author, but one of us might be misinterpreting what Jesus meant by those words).

Now, my task, with which i hope you will all assist me, is to find out which of these possibilities is true. I am confident that you all agree that it is possible that one, or two, or three, or even all four might be true. Likewise i am assured that it is impossible that all four could be false. Therefore, in each of our cases, at least one of these four applies.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

(1) The Bible is untrue

(2) The Catholic Catechism is untrue

(3) One’s interpretation of the Roman Catholic Catechism is incorrect

(4) One’s interpretation of the Bible is incorrect

I suppose the best course of action for me to take would be to decide which of these propositions should be considered first. I would like to suggest that we not focus on answering (1), as this would take considerable time. It is a good proposition to consider for the skeptic, and would make a great discussion thread of its own.

I think discussing both (2) and (3) might prove interesting, but (4) seems the best place to start. The reason i suggest this is that the Protestant(s) and Catholics here likely agree that (1) is not true. For example, the Lutheran Angainor probably agrees with the Catholic Dylanschrader that our Savior and Lord Jesus did actually say:
“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

​

The reason Angainor disagrees with Dylanschrader, i assume, is that they interpret the meaning of Jesus’ words differently. The task for me, then, is to determine who, if any, has the correct interpretation of Christ’s words.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So, in looking at Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48,

"So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."my goal is to determine who, if anyone here, has the correct interpretation of these words.

I’d like to ask for help, here. Will anyone tell me what would be the best way for me to figure out who has the correct interpretation of our beloved Redeemer’s words in Matthew 5:48?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

To ask the question another way, when one wants to determine what an author means by what he writes, where does one begin?

 

[Seamus_Sully]

It is His love that saves us.

It is our new heart that uses His love that saves us.

We have to use His love to be saved.

We have to use our new hearts to be saved.

Love is first!

Love is greatest.

God so loved the world that He sent His only Begotten Son.

God is love.

God’s Word of Love is spoken into our hearts.

Love is heard by faith. In other words, love is believed by faith.

Love is in charge of faith.

We now share or partake in the Divine nature.

Again, God’s love poured into our new hearts saves us.

When we consent (believe) to His love, we will be saved.

God’s Love completes/perfects us.

We do not have to love God “perfectly” to be saved. Jesus only said: love God and you will have eternal life.

My infant baby is a perfect human being, that is, complete.

We are now adopted children of God. We partake in the Divine nature. We are saved by His LOVE poured into our new hearts.

The old self, or old Adam died with Christ in our baptism.

I should have stated: faith comes by hearing.

Then love is heard by faith.

 

[Contarini]

I was trying to discover what Catholicism teaches about how to make it to heaven in another discussion thread.

Why are you so concerned with “making it to heaven”? Don’t you trust God? Don’t you believe that God desires your eternal welfare even more than you do? So why not just do what God tells you to do, trust Him to forgive you when you fall short, and stop worrying?

Edwin

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Agreed! But you have a round-about way of getting to your point. I really have no idea what you meant by all that other “We have to use our new hearts” kind of stuff.

Sorry about writing is a round-about manner.

Let me try once again.

I will try to be more clear.

As St. Paul teaches: Faith comes by hearing.

What does faith hear?

Love is heard by faith.

God’s Word saved us.

God is love.

God’s voice is love.

We hear His voice of love.

The faith that is involved in our salvation is the faith that consents to His love.

If we consent to love we will be saved.

Love is patient and kind.

Love is not rude (Love is polite).

Love is not puffed up (Love is humble).

Love does not rejoice with evil, but rejoices with the truth.

God is love.

I just changed to God’s other Words, the Ten Words, or Ten Commandments, or Decalogue.

God is One. We must consent to the One.

God is fidelity. We must consent to fidelity to our spouse. Chastity is beautiful because it comes from God’s beauty. We all know Jesus’ definition of adultery in the New Covenant.

God is Life. We must consent to life and not murder. Murder in the New Covenant is being angry at our brothers. We must consent to non-anger or peace.

God is truth. We must consent to being truthful, and not tricking others or even self.

I am changing perspectives.

John the Baptist says Jesus must increase and he must decrease.

St. Paul says, when he is weak then he is strong.

When we let Jesus work in us, then we become His handmaidens.

He works through us when we are weak.

Moreover, He will complete what He started.

When we consent to LOVE, then His love will save us.

We must use the new hearts that He gives us.

We are saved by His love and His gift of a new heart.

His love contains all that we need to be saved: power of the Gospel, light, kindness, patience, not rudeness, peacefulness, endurance,sobriety, chastity, truthfullness, wisdom, gifts of the Holy Spirit, fruits of the Holy Spirit, and all the other needed gifts.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

I will be much more consise.

As St. Paul teaches: Faith comes by hearing.

What does faith hear?

Love is heard by faith.

God’s Word saved us.

God is love.

God’s voice is love.

We hear His voice of love.

If we consent to love we will be saved.

His love contains all that we need to be saved: power of the Gospel, light, kindness, patience, not rudeness, peacefulness, endurance,sobriety, chastity, truthfullness, wisdom, gifts of the Holy Spirit, fruits of the Holy Spirit, and all the other needed gifts.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So, in looking at Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48,

"So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."my goal is to determine what is the correct interpretation of these words.

I’d like to ask for help, here. Will anyone tell me what would be the best way for me to figure out what is the correct interpretation of our beloved Redeemer’s words in Matthew 5:48?

Anyone?

 

[Contarini]

Anyone?

Well, the rest of the Sermon on the Mount would be a start!

Are you really in any doubt as to what you need to do (or at least as to what some good first steps might be)? Hint: prayer, works of charity, faithfulness to whatever responsibilities and relationships you may be involved in–these are all good ideas!

Or are you just trying to create some kind of trap for Catholics and similarly minded Christians? Either way, you need to deal with the question I posed in my earlier post. Why not just do the things we know we should do and see what happens? Who knows, it might be fun!

Edwin

 

[Angainor]

Socrates4Jesus:

So, in looking at Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48,
"So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."my goal is to determine what is the correct interpretation of these words.

I’d like to ask for help, here. Will anyone tell me what would be the best way for me to figure out what is the correct interpretation of our beloved Redeemer’s words in Matthew 5:48?

Anyone?

Read them?

Seriously. This does not seem like it is open to much interpretation.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, the rest of the Sermon on the Mount would be a start!

Are you really in any doubt as to what you need to do (or at least as to what some good first steps might be)? Hint: prayer, works of charity, faithfulness to whatever responsibilities and relationships you may be involved in–these are all good ideas!

Or are you just trying to create some kind of trap for Catholics and similarly minded Christians? Either way, you need to deal with the question I posed in my earlier post. Why not just do the things we know we should do and see what happens? Who knows, it might be fun!

Edwin

Well, Edwin, if the truth of Jesus’ words are a trap, then i would hope that everyone (me most of all) would fall prey to them. What i’m seeking to do here is the same as Socrates: to learn the truth, and follow Him wherever He leads me. I do not have to defend Him, for He does that extremely well on His own. To know Him and to strive in some imperfect way to become like Him (though, i admit, i could never be like Him, for He was God in the flesh), that is my purpose.

What is yours?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Read them?

Seriously. This does not seem like it is open to much interpretation.

And read them i have, my Lutheran friend; and truth of them concerns me. I think i understand this truth, but others tell me i do not, so i’m asking them to give the reasons why they believe as they do. Perhaps if i can see Jesus’ words from their point of view i will then learn a truth that will set me free.

“But don’t go there!” my Protestant friends warn me. “They’re on a highway to hell and are oblivious to the fact. Why step foot on their path? It leads to death! Eternal separation from God, is that what you want? If you play with fire you will get burned. Listen to us and stay at our forum. The truth is alive and well, there. However they are like zombies walking in darkness, deceived into thinking they are alive.”

Yet, how do i know that i am not one of the living dead? The way to know, it seems to me, is to stare the truth right in the loving eyes of Jesus. He alone can help the blind man see the truth and the dying man live eternal. If what i have been taught is a lie, i trust He will show me Himself, perhaps through the loving words of a Catholic? If what i have been taught is the truth, i shall return to where i came with my trust in that truth strengthened. Yet, if the truth i believe sheds her skin and reveals herself to be a lie beneath, then shake her off i must, before she bites.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Perhaps you, Angainor, will be kind enough to tell me if what i believe to be the truth truly is true? I suppose i will explain the reason for the hope that i have and you will be able to tell me if you believe i am deceived.

As we acknowledge, our loving Lord said (as quoted in a Roman Catholic sanctioned Bible):

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
(Matthew 5:48)
As i have stated, i’m striving to know the true meaning of His words, here. These are the words of God Himself, who is the only one who is perfect in every thought, word and deed, and who alone never committed a sin of commission or omission. As the author of Hebrews correctly states, “It is impossible for God to lie”. I trust that He said what He meant and meant what He said; every word He speaks is true.