How can you associate with the Church if you don't agree completely

[mcrow]

I think this post is misleading. It is not the case that the Priest may not administer Communion to a known homosexual – it is the case that he may not give Communion to any person known to be sexually active out with the Church’s designated marriage situation. It is not about homosexuality at all here. It is about sexual activity instead.

No, it’s for both reasons.

I’ve spoken to priests about this at length and they cannot serve a known homosexual or anyone they know to be a sinner for any reason. So in the case of known gay person they would be declined Communion for A) Having a sinful relationship with someone of the same sex and B) premarital sex since gays cannot possibly be married in the eyes of the Church.

It’s the “chick or the egg” sort of thing since both sins are happening at the same time. Essentially, a straight person having premarital sex is committing one sin while a gay person doing the same is committing two sins.

In either case, if the priest know of the situation he can deny Communion.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Do not listen to CMatt25.

He or she has picked and chosen the paragraphs in the Catechism to defend moral relativism.

No person calling him or herself a Catholic can support homosexuality because a malformed conscience instructs them to. That is how various protestant denominations work, not Catholicism.

We are also required to form our conscience to the Lord which we know through Church teaching. The scriptures are very clear on this point and the catechism reflects this teaching.

 

[CMatt25]

Do not listen to CMatt25.

He or she has picked and chosen the paragraphs in the Catechism to defend moral relativism.

No person calling him or herself a Catholic can support homosexuality because a malformed conscience instructs them to. That is how various protestant denominations work, not Catholicism.

You apparently missed my beginning about how after “we immerse ourselves in prayer, instruct and inform our consciences as to Church teaching”.

But I guess then the OP shouldn’t listen to Linda Marie either who said, “If, after you have investigated fully, you still believe that “X” is not a sin, then the conscience clause comes in.”

The CCC is what it is. Our faith walks are lifelong journeys. The OP has stated he/she is continuing the journey. And you can but I’m not about to judge another’s conscience. Nor their heart. Not now nor at the moment of death. And no doubt as you know, the Church calls many who disagree with something, still Catholic.

God bless you on your faith walk and peace be with you always.

 

[Barbkw]

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

CCC 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

These two paragraphs refer to Catholics who have formed a conscience that conforms to the teachings and doctrine of the Catholic Church. They are supportive statements for those who (for whatever reason) are being persecuted for supporting the Church’s beliefs.

If not, then these two statements equate out to saying nothing more than, “even a broken clock is right twice a day.”

If a Catholic person or a Catholic group is going to become militant against the teaching and doctrine of the Church, they are self excommunicating. There are multiple groups that are doing this now:

Catholic groups supporting noncelibate same sex attraction and gay marriage:

Sept 29, 2010: Equally Blessed coalition to include DignityUSA, Call to Action, New Ways Ministry, and Fortunate Families.

dignityusa.org/press/equally-blessed-unites-catholic-voices-marriage-equality-justice or cta-usa.org/about/mission/ or newwaysministry.org/ or fortunatefamilies.com/ or www.rainbowsashmovement.com/About-Us.html

Catholic groups supporting the ordination of women in the Catholic Church:

www.womenpriests.org/

**Pro choice Catholics – Abortion, Contraception, Homosexuality: **

catholicsforchoice.org/actioncenter/CatholicsforaFreeChoice-SpeakOut.asp

Fourteen years ago, In 1996, Bishop Bruskewitz, informed Catholics in the diocese of Lincoln that if they retained membership in 12 groups that they would be self excommunicating. The organizations Call to Action, Call to Action Nebraska and Catholics for a Free Choice were included in the group of twelve.

 

[CMatt25]

These two paragraphs refer to Catholics who have formed a conscience that conforms to the teachings and doctrine of the Catholic Church. They are supportive statements for those who (for whatever reason) are being persecuted for supporting the Church’s beliefs.

If a Catholic person or a Catholic group is going to become militant against the teaching and doctrine of the Church, they are self excommunicating.

If that were the case and one only has a proper conscience when it conforms to every teaching, sorry but that sounds more like indoctrination of one’s mind rather than conscience to me. And surely you know even Catholics who disagree on something (perhaps militant in your view) are considered Catholics by the Church. Even excommunicated Catholics are still considered Catholic.

But in fact you can’t be clearer than these words which I leave you to ponder.

I don’t make up these words.

Pope John Paul II, in his message for World Peace on January 1st, 1999, stressed the primacy of conscience:

“People are obliged to follow their conscience in all circumstances and cannot be forced to act against it.”

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) expressed the Church’s understanding of the primacy of conscience – an understanding which he eloquently expressed while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968.

“Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority,” writes Ratzinger, stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”

slimpickens.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/primacy-of-conscience-pell-vs-the-popes/

Simply put. Once we have thoroughly prayed, pondered, and informed ourselves of teaching, one must still follow their conscience in all circumstances. Their conscience is above the Church and the conscience must be obeyed even if need be against the Church.

God bless you on your walk and peace be with you always.

 

[jmcrae]

Simply put. Once we have thoroughly prayed, pondered, and informed ourselves of teaching, one must still follow their conscience in all circumstances. Their conscience is above the Church and the conscience must be obeyed even if need be against the Church. .

And only after doing everything possible to form your conscience according to the teachings of the Church. Your conscience cannot be said to be “informed” if it is based on the teachings of Oprah, rather than on the teachings of Christ.

 

[mark_a]

I cannot, however, understand why the application of a teaching of love should be as negative as it is in the case of the homosexuality issue.

The teaching is more about the proper use of the sexual gift than it is about love.

I do not think that the Church’s teaching should lead to the current anti-gay marriage, adoption etc. campaigning that is condoned.

This teaching is a natural result of presenting the other side of the cultural coin.

I haven’t seen a prioritized list that shows the degree of sinfulness of adultery, fornication, contraception, masturbation, polygamy, beastiality, homosexual polygamy, etc. as compared to homosexuality.

However, none of the fingerpointing from anyone who partakes in the above negates the Church teaching that marriage is between one man and one woman for procreation.

Best wishes.

 

[Barbkw]

*Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) expressed the Church’s understanding of the primacy of conscience – an understanding which he eloquently expressed while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968.

“Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority,” writes Ratzinger, stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”*

Let’s be honest and go back and find the context in which Father Ratzinger in 1968 used that paragraph.

(How in the world and why did someone have recourse to turn to a statement he made over 40 years ago? That’s a hell of a lot of digging to find that statement. Why aren’t his current statements against homosexual acts being used instead?

He’s had multiple pages of remarks against sodomy and homosexual unions since becoming Pope.)

A Catholic with an immoral conscience will obey to his or her death that ill formed conscience unless he or she is directed toward a moral path.

On the other hand, a Catholic with an obedient heart directed toward understanding the Pope and a well formed conscience is capable of looking inward and then can discern outward problems that exist in the Church.

 

[Barbkw]

Pope John Paul II, in his message for World Peace on January 1st, 1999, stressed the primacy of conscience:

“People are obliged to follow their conscience in all circumstances and cannot be forced to act against it.”

That statement, again taken out of the context in which it was written (to suit a personal need or want) is proof of nothing.

Immoral people, have their sins follow them like stink on a skunk.

Moral people, when fighting against an immoral world, “are obliged to follow their conscience in all circumstances and cannot be forced to act against it.”

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks, Barb! That’s important information to know - that the context of these teachings is that the moral Catholic who is following the teachings of the Church cannot be forced by immoral people to disobey the Church.

It’s good to know that this was never intended as an “out” for immoral people to follow a badly formed conscience.

 

[Barbkw]

CMatt25,

“If that were the case and one only has a proper conscience when it conforms to every teaching, sorry but that sounds more like indoctrination of one’s mind rather than conscience to me.”

When a Catholic gives the Pope the proverbial “middle finger” telling him that he’s the one who’s wrong, then they aren’t progressing forward. They are in full reverse. A person with a well formed consciense knows that it is heresy both against Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition for homosexuals to believe that their sexual acts and their marriages are holy.

Self excommunicated Catholics are shutting themselves off from the two Sacraments capable of leading them to holiness, Reconciliation and Eucharist.

 

[Linda_Marie]

We have biblical support for excluding public sinners from active participation in the Sacraments (excepting Confession) until they repent and sin no more. We don’t know everyone’s state of grace but when someone presents themselves with their active lifestyle plastered all over them, such as a drunkard staggering up the aisle, we are obliged to deny them.

The thing is that it is as much for their sakes as to prevent desecration of the Eucharist. We believe that those who are in a state of mortal sin and partake the Holy Eucharist take upon themselves condemnation. In preventing them from receiving the Eucharist, we are preventing them from compounding their sin and making things much worse for themselves. It is an act of love, not hate.

1 Corinthians 5
Expel the Immoral Brother!
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?
<…>
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New International Version)

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”[a]

Footnotes:

1. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205:9-13&version=NIV

 

[CMatt25]

And only after doing everything possible to form your conscience according to the teachings of the Church. Your conscience cannot be said to be “informed” if it is based on the teachings of Oprah, rather than on the teachings of Christ.

Which I’ve said twice here. Inform your conscience of Church teaching. Now a 3rd.

And pray. Seek guidance. Study. Ponder. More prayer is always a good idea.

And then if after all of that your conscience sees Christ’s teachings in a somewhat different light, there is a primacy of conscience in the end as John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger’s words alluded to. If someone (I don’t mean you jmcrae) then wants to judge another’s conscience or heart, that is up to them. I will not take that route however.

Only God knows the inner struggles another may have. Only God knows the heart.

And it is also thru His infinite understanding, His mercy, and His judgement, not the judgement of any of us here on CAF, by which holiness shall be be obtained.

Again, I will not particpate in a judgement game should anyone wish to, to determine another’s holiness and in the end their eternal salvation. The Bible tells me not to.

However I pray for God blessings for each and every one of you, for each one of us along our walks with Him. And peace be with us all. Amen.

 

[finclk]

I was speaking to a friend about being Christian and the homosexuality issue came up. I admitted that I personally don’t agree with the Church teaching on it or, rather, that I think the application of Church teaching is wrong (my understanding of the Church’s teaching is that it starts from the premise that people are not defined by sexuality. I don’t understand how that, and the application of Christ’s message of unconditional love can extend to the current teaching that same-sex marriages are wrong, and the encouragement of laypersons to vote etc. accordingly).
I feel like I have done this issue to death recently and made little or not progress, so I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about homosexuality - could you make a new thread or PM me or something if you want to speak about it. I’m not opposed to chatting about it, but I was hoping this thread could discuss another issue, which this is the background to.

My friend asked me how I could associate myself with the Church if I thought that teaching was wrong because I was quite literally supporting the cause through my support of the Church. I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
I do believe that this is the one true Church passed on by Christ and I feel that I am closer to God now that I’ve ever been and leaving isn’t even almost an option. I’m not sure how to justify my indirect support of what I don’t agree with through supporting the Church.

I’d love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks in advance.

Hi there,

I love this forum as there as so much topics being discussed.

Your original qn/topic of whether you must agree everything with the Catholic Church to be a catholic? ans is no. The church can have important issues like matters of faith/dogmas/doctrines which to be called a Catholic, you must be able to touch yourself inside and agree wholeheartedly. The areas you can disagree with are Theological opinions. (Anyone pls correct me if i’m wrong on this)

Your 2nd subpoint of accepting homosexuality as natural and not due to free will, that not only is against Catholic teachings but also general Christian teachings. In fact evangelical protestants have a stricter view on homosexuality as they go on the basis of the bible.

1. Catholics HAVE TO BELIEVE homosexual orientation is generally unchosen and thus is not, in itself, sinful. It is a disordered state. However, all homosexual behavior is sinful. God and the church expect lesbians and gays to remain celibate for life.
2. Protestants believe homosexual orientation is wrong, not natural, viewing it as chosen, unnatural, abnormal & changeable behavior. Basically one cannot be born a homosexual cause God would not create homosexuals.

(I emphasize HAVE TO BELIEVE as a Catholic, one has to agree fully with what the church states, means one could be born a homosexual but still shouldn’t engage in the behavior. For protestants, there are varying degrees of beliefs on how much homosexuality is due to NATURE or NURTURE)

For me personally, I disagree with the catholic church on this as I fully believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and STEVE or MADAM and Eve. In general, one is either a Christian or a practicing homosexual. It’s mutually exclusive. One cannot be a practicing homosexual and a christian at the same time.

Anyway as a summary, the church stance on homosexuality is not just one of the issues, there are alot of other IMPORTANT doctrines which as a catholic, you must say you agree wholeheartedly to be called a catholic.

For an evangelical protestant, their basis is just the bible. As long as it doesn’t conflict with the bible, it’s acceptable.

 

[cbsjrcol]

It seems that many people read and understand what they want to (human nature) regarding conscience.

This is from CCC #2039:

Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord.81 At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person’s own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

I am off to a meeting tonight regarding Catholics Returning Home…the biggest issue is that the Catholic Church only has ONE thing to offer…TRUTH!! As much as I empathize with many social challenges of today…this is just what they are, social challenges of today. So, the goal is not to get more people in the pews or make them feel good…it is to expose them to the truth! When I realized that virtually every Christian faith was Anti-CONTRACEPTION until 1930 (Lambeth Conf), I was shocked. What has happened to our society in 80 years? You are either Catholic or you are not (talking matters of Faith and Morals here!)

Pray Pray Pray for guidance and wisdom. We must ascent to the teaching of the Church

God’s Peace

 

[MaryMarie]

“…what do we do once we immerse ourselves in prayer, instruct and inform our consciences as to Church teaching, and yet still after all of that, in good conscience we disagree.”

(The author has a misunderstanding of the CCC quotes.)

It is God Himself who teaches through His (Catholic) Church, therefore to disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church is to disagree with God! This can never be done “in good conscience.”

We might not currently understand certain aspects of a teaching, but we must persist in prayer, however long it takes. We must conform ourselves to Christ, trusting that He is Truth, Goodness, Justice–and even Mercy–itself, and trusting that His teachings reflect this. And if He chooses to delay granting our prayer, it could very well be to test our faith in Him!

It is true that God loves the sinner, but it is just as true that He hates the sin. I think we get a fuller understanding of this when we become parents. We never stop loving our children, but we don’t condone their bad/sinful behaviour.

It would be helpful to learn what the Church teaches about discernment.

 

[The_Reginator]

It is God Himself who teaches through His (Catholic) Church, therefore to disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church is to disagree with God! This can never be done “in good conscience.”

We might not currently understand certain aspects of a teaching, but we must persist in prayer, however long it takes. We must conform ourselves to Christ …

Indeed we must conform to the teachings of the Church as they ARE the teachings of God Almighty.
That attitude helped me while converting to Catholicism when it came to doctrines that were very foreign to my low-Anglican upbringing.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I personally can accept the teachings of the Church regarding homosexuals, but when it comes to contraception - not so much.

I use the implant, and like using it because (as I’ve mentioned before on my own thread) it helps regulate a condition. I am currently sexually active although I’ve managed to cut it down greatly (as in, how much I sin this way). I’m aiming for abstinence and its a difficult process for both me and my boyfriend, we give in occasionally.

Is the Church against contraception purely because it could cause an abortion/promote promiscuity? Mine will not trigger abortions (I do not even have periods and the body is smart enough to not release an egg if there is no lining).

Basically I’m asking what I HAVE to believe/do as a Catholic (when I’m recieved into the Church) regarding contraception.

 

[jmcrae]

I personally can accept the teachings of the Church regarding homosexuals, but when it comes to contraception - not so much.

I use the implant, and like using it because (as I’ve mentioned before on my own thread) it helps regulate a condition. I am currently sexually active although I’ve managed to cut it down greatly (as in, how much I sin this way). I’m aiming for abstinence and its a difficult process for both me and my boyfriend, we give in occasionally.

Is the Church against contraception purely because it could cause an abortion/promote promiscuity? Mine will not trigger abortions (I do not even have periods and the body is smart enough to not release an egg if there is no lining).

The Church is against contraception because it actively thwarts the unitive and procreative elements of the marriage covenant.

(NFP gets a pass because it operates passively - you are just not having sex at the times when you are fertile - it doesn’t actively interfere with the marriage act.)

Basically I’m asking what I HAVE to believe/do as a Catholic (when I’m recieved into the Church) regarding contraception.

What you have to believe, when you are received into the Church, is that sex is reserved to married people who are open to life.

How you put this into practice is through the discipline of chastity - which is more than just no sex outside of marriage - it’s an attitude of the heart and mind in which you not only avoid extra-marital, pre-marital, and contracepted sex, but you also dress chastely, and pursue chaste activities - which means that not only do you not use contraception, you also don’t dress provocatively, and you don’t make use of pornography of any kind - magazines, web sites, novels, video games, and more.

Edited to add - I may be coming across more harshly than I mean to - I do understand that it’s a process, and both people have to be on board with it - it’s going to take you some time to get to where you need to be, before you begin to think and behave like a good Catholic. You might not have completed the whole process of letting go by this Easter - and that’s okay - the Church will still be here for you next year, or how ever long it takes you to get to the point where you are able and willing to live the Catholic lifestyle - it’s not a race, but if you’re not ready, then you’re not ready, and you have to wait. Don’t cheat yourself out of a grace-filled First Holy Communion, in the rush to become a Catholic on paper, if it takes a bit longer to become a Catholic at heart.

 

[freerf]

I would reply to my friend that God has touched my heart and lead me to a deep faith in the Catholic Church. At this time in my life I must humble myself, recognize my own limitations and youthfulness, and trust that God has placed me where He wants me to be.