How can you change sexual orientation or lose it?

[Pfaffenhoffen]

As we can see here woman was actually created for man as his “helper”, man was not created for woman.

And what pray tell does “by indulgence” mean? According to the Haydock “By indulgence. That is, by a condescension to your weakness.” So we can see that they are only joined in flesh, as we see in the parable of the woman with seven husbands parable marriage does not exist in Heaven (until death do us part indeed)

1. So divorce is a mental disorder? Masturbation is a mental disorder? I guess most teenage boys have a mental disorder then.
2. Prostitution is behaviour frequently done out of desperation, many were forced into it by others. Addictions can very much be controlled (stop acting on it, but cravings persist) or even cured (stop acting and cravings go away) depending on the type of addiction (and also the person). Homosexual desires can and do frequently exist before ever engaging in homosexual acts.
3. I didn’t say you were ignorant, only that you were in need of more learning in two areas. Being ignorant isn’t a horrible thing if you are willing to learn, now being willfully ignorant on the other hand…
4. I am acutely aware of how heavy that cross is…

As we can see here woman was actually created for man as his “helper”, man was not created for woman.

I just cannot believe you said this !!! It seems XVI century thought or earlier…

According to the Haydock "By indulgence. That is, by a condescension to your weakness.

I cannot believe that you believe that this is taken literally… Oh! Boy !!! I just cannot comment at all !!!

I thought that you would quote the passage that Christ said that man and woman would be one flesh but you forgot that.

1. You said that not I. I said that diseases and mental ilnesses were “in-ordinata”. Period. But if go your way, you see how out of balance people are when they divorce and that no adolescent wants to stay in the masturbation state. I do not think that there are people who are crazy and others well-minded. Everybody may catch a mental ilness, full time or temporary, as you catch a cold or you get cancer. So, I say, homosexuality may be temporary and curable. That is what I hope, and I find it hard to accept that you do not accept this “hope”, that you find homosexual people just helpless people, or with homosexuality engraved with an fire iron on their heads for life…
2. Wrong. No, you did not say that I needed MORE learning, you said

So not only are you in need to theological learning, but science too

. Do not worry, dont give excuses, I do not mind to be called ignorant. In fact, Socrates said, “I only know that I know nothing!”. In fact, maybe if you asked what study in theology and science I have you would be surprised. But, never mind…

1. Good.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

1. I just cannot believe you said this !!! It seems XVI century thought or earlier…

I cannot believe that you believe that this is taken literally… Oh! Boy !!! I just cannot comment at all !!!

I thought that you would quote the passage that Christ said that man and woman would be one flesh but you forgot that.

1. You said that not I. I said that diseases and mental illnesses were “in-ordinata”. Period. But if go your way, you see how out of balance people are when they divorce and that no adolescent wants to stay in the masturbation state. I do not think that there are people who are crazy and others well-minded. Everybody may catch a mental illness, full time or temporary, as you catch a cold or you get cancer. So, I say, homosexuality may be temporary and curable. That is what I hope, and I find it hard to accept that you do not accept this “hope”, that you find homosexual people just helpless people, or with homosexuality engraved with an fire iron on their heads for life…
2. Wrong. No, you did not say that I needed MORE learning, you said . Do not worry, don’t give excuses, I do not mind to be called ignorant. In fact, Socrates said, “I only know that I know nothing!”. In fact, maybe if you asked what study in theology and science I have you would be surprised. But, never mind…
3. Good.

1. Well, mid twentieth century. I didn’t say that women were inferior to men. It’s right there in Genesis, “let us make him a help like unto himself”. You appeared to have been referring to Genesis since that is where it covered the creation of woman.
2. Inordinata does not refer to mental disorders it refers to morally disordered/imbalanced such as masturbation, divorce, fornication, homosexual acts etc.
3. And I’m in need of learning on computer networking even though I have basic knowledge in it. Xenophonic Socrates>Platonic Socrates since Plato liked to “embellish” “sometimes”.

 

[genesius28]

I don’t want to sound mean, but it is a choice.

Homo sexuality is a choice based off of perversion. For sexual pleasure. A man can become so interested into the enjoyment of Sex that he looks for new ways to pleasure himself better. Get more of an erotic perverted experience. Breaking the covenant of Sex and the natural bond between a man and a woman.

I hope i haven’t offended anybody.
If I did I am truly sorry.

Take Care and
God Bless.

I had my first crush on a boy when I was in kindergarten… I didn’t even know what sex was, let alone that there was a term for a boy who likes boys. All I knew was that I thought he was cute. It’s not about sexual pleasure, it’s just who you find attractive. And it’s not about finding “new ways of pleasure” because I’ve never felt the slightest attraction to women at any point in my life. So for me to look for “news ways to pleasure” myself (as you put it) would mean seeking out a woman… which, quite frankly, I think sounds disgusting.

You may not understand how a man could be attracted to another man – and that’s fine, because I don’t understand the appeal of women – but you can’t assume that it’s all about sexual gratification if you’ve never had the experience of growing up gay yourself.

 

[Wowbagger]

Didn’t it say God gave up rebels to vile affections? Is homosexuality a result of sin?..

Doesn’t affection already refer to the attraction?

And what about the anti-theists? They are the kings of all rebels, yet so many of them are straight.

It’s a result of original sin, yes. Like every disorder, disease, and death itself. The Greeks of that time were particularly depraved, which was a sign of their decadence, but we are all rebels in the end, and we are all given up to our own peculiar “vile affections.” It is up to us to decide whether we will embrace those affections or take them up as a cross. Your friend is no different, although he carries a particularly heavy cross for this era, when the culture is obsessed with sex while the Church is still trying to figure out what it means to be a Catholic homosexual.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

It’s a result of original sin, yes. Like every disorder, disease, and death itself. The Greeks of that time were particularly depraved, which was a sign of their decadence, but we are all rebels in the end, and we are all given up to our own peculiar “vile affections.” It is up to us to decide whether we will embrace those affections or take them up as a cross. Your friend is no different, although he carries a particularly heavy cross for this era, when the culture is obsessed with sex while the Church is still trying to figure out what it means to be a Catholic homosexual.

You can pretty much always find the answer in the Church’s past in the case of something that has continuous been with us since um… at least Biblical times. It knew what it was, but has since been forgotten.

 

[Hadrianus]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says quite clearly that the genesis of the homosexual condition is largely unknown. That it is not a choice is presented at a pretty high level of magisterial teaching. This also accords with the scientific evidence which the Church takes seriously. The statement is not dogmatic and a Catholic may choose to insist that those with a homosexual orientation have deliberately chosen it; but this opinion is not that held by the Church, and cannot be presented as Catholic doctrine.

Regarding the OP: No one knows how to change or lose sexual orientation as such, but by grace it is possible for all to lead lives of chastity. There certainly were saints who for all practical purposes seem to have transcended bodily lusts entirely. Chastity is a gift within the reach of all who desire to be in a state of grace.

All that said, we must be realistic in assessing the fact that those outside of the Church will not generally speaking possess the graces necessary for this kind of chastity. Human beings in their fallen state cannot avoid sin without God’s grace, and those who lead secular lives must first be converted before we can expect them to change their lives.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

1. Well, mid twentieth century. I didn’t say that women were inferior to men. It’s right there in Genesis, “let us make him a help like unto himself”. You appeared to have been referring to Genesis since that is where it covered the creation of woman.
2. Inordinata does not refer to mental disorders it refers to morally disordered/imbalanced such as masturbation, divorce, fornication, homosexual acts etc.
3. And I’m in need of learning on computer networking even though I have basic knowledge in it. Xenophonic Socrates>Platonic Socrates since Plato liked to “embellish” “sometimes”.

1. No. You said that woman was made for man but man was not made for the woman.
2. But I want to refer inordinata to things that are not “ordered”. As they were expelled from Paradise, they were told the work= pain and labout=pain. What was not so in Paradise. So, God did not “order” us to have diseases, death and mental imbalance, which will not exist in Heaven. OK, moral sins are not good order but in the natural world there are things that are not well ordered. this is not a perfect world.

The problem is when people mistakenly take mental imbalance for moral terpitude and sin.

1. Again. You did not say that. You said that I needed to study theology as well as science. It was not a general idea that everybody must improve. It was intended as a personal “ad hominem”. But, as I told you, forget about it. It does not bother me. Sorry, I did not understand that: " Xenophonic Socrates>Platonic Socrates since Plato liked to “embellish” “sometimes”." Not everybody can fly as high as you !

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks now I feel better.

We can never truly know if they choose or if they’re “born” with it.

I don’t think these are the only two options.

Whether same-sex attraction is the result of genetics, environment, or a combination of the two, it could still very easily be something that is not chosen.

As Dakota said, even Nicolosi (the man behind NARTH) doesn’t say that the inclination is chosen. He posits that many cases of same sex attraction in males involve an absent father and a domineering mother. This is an environmental cause (not a genetic one), but it’s still not something a child chooses for himself.

 

[michelleds]

How can you change sexual orientation or lose it?

the human cannot. God can or God will give your friend and all of us the strength to fight our fallen nature. His Grace is sufficient.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Dear friend,
your friend should not and MUST NOT kill himself because he has a homosexual orientation.
God designed us as sexual beings. Not homosexual beings, to be sure,
BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND that the body/mind/sexuality connection is a mystery as to how it works.
AND WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND that SINCE THE FALL,
Original Sin has REALLY SCREWED UP the way our body/mind/sexuality connection should work, among MANY OTHER THINGS ABOUT US that Original Sin has screwed up royally.
A homosexual orientation is, I believe, part of the disharmony in our bodies caused by original sin, which disharmonies manifest themselves in different people in different ways.
What is sinful, is to commit the sex act.
We must study the catechism and the scriptures. We must pray for strength to overcome our sexual passions, all the more so if they are in some way disordered.
Then study things like the theology of the body and how the body is specifically designed, yes designed, to be used for RIGHTEOUS acts in harmony with Nature and with God’s Law and with Charity. THAT will help us avoid a whole host of
sins and crimes, not just homosexual acts.
God sometimes grants an instant cure to a person with Same Sex Attraction.
At other times, He leaves them with it, as a cross to bear, to draw them closer to Him
in prayer and devotion and to make them realize just how MUCH we need Him 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
May God bless your friend and fill him with holiness, chastity, and the Holy Spirit.
Much love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[shaky]

I don’t want to sound mean, but it is a choice.

Homo sexuality is a choice based off of perversion. For sexual pleasure. A man can become so interested into the enjoyment of Sex that he looks for new ways to pleasure himself better. Get more of an erotic perverted experience. Breaking the covenant of Sex and the natural bond between a man and a woman.

I hope i haven’t offended anybody.
If I did I am truly sorry.

Take Care and
God Bless.

Well i could not choose to be a homosexual!

 

[Leegal]

Well i could not choose to be a homosexual!

Neither could I. Which is why I say that sexual orientation is immutable. I agree with what Hadrianus said in post #46.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

1. No. You said that woman was made for man but man was not made for the woman.
2. But I want to refer inordinata to things that are not “ordered”. As they were expelled from Paradise, they were told the work= pain and labour=pain. What was not so in Paradise. So, God did not “order” us to have diseases, death and mental imbalance, which will not exist in Heaven. OK, moral sins are not good order but in the natural world there are things that are not well ordered. this is not a perfect world.

The problem is when people mistakenly take mental imbalance for moral turpitude and sin.

1. Again. You did not say that. You said that I needed to study theology as well as science. It was not a general idea that everybody must improve. It was intended as a personal “ad hominem”. But, as I told you, forget about it. It does not bother me. Sorry, I did not understand that: " Xenophonic Socrates>Platonic Socrates since Plato liked to “embellish” “sometimes”." Not everybody can fly as high as you !

1. Affirmative
2. That doesn’t make homosexuality a mental disorder
3. Plato isn’t a very trustworthy source for the historic Socrates, Xenophon is a far more trustworthy source as he’s basically a historian and isn’t worshiping Socrates. My feet are firmly grounded.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Neither could I. Which is why I say that sexual orientation is immutable. I agree with what Hadrianus said in post #46.

If you have a strong enough conviction not to do so, you could not jump off of a skyscraper.

As someone who’s ‘been there’, I think it’s unfortunate that so many people, especially Christians, believe that humans are capable of developing or diminishing attractions to all sorts of things – junk food, hard drugs, theft and violence, and pornography, yet reach a barrier in trying to comprehend that we can condition sexuality.

Children are not born liking one gender over the other. They are also not born attracted to electrical outlets. They grow up, and learn about things, and grow in curiosity, and one day, they will have a curious attraction to an electrical outlet. It is the job of the parents to train their children to understand why the outlet is unattractive in terms of playing with it, and what the proper use of the outlet is. Some parents can grasp this concept but can’t teach their kids that boys and girls are made to compliment each other and what their body parts are properly used for.

 

[Hadrianus]

My opinion is only opinion, but what I cited from the CCC in post #46 must be accepted as the position at present of the Catholic Church, which would be open to revision if neurobiologists or psychologists are ever able to discover the actual genesis of homosexual orientation. The question on that level is a scientific one.

@ivebeenshown,

I do like the idea that boys and girls have to be taught by their parents to be attracted to one another. It’s certainly a very original theory.

 

[Julia_Mae]

One of my best friends is a homosexual who, in fact, hates the fact that he is one. He even (almost) attempted suicide and self-harm as an act of punishment towards himself. I am the only one who knows that he is.

Sorry, but homosexuality ISN’T a choice may be the cause of something genetic or environmental (he claims it’s environmental.). .

Evidence all leans toward genetic right now. But I see the attraction of wanting it to be environmental because it leads to hope for a fundamental change. I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation at this point.

I didn’t read all the other responses, but the real issue here is how much pain your friend is in. No one should hate the themselves, especially for being as made. What I wish your friend knew, is that God loves him as much as any person ever created. A much as any Saint or Pope, or anyone else. Young men have special challenges because biology makes sexuality number one in mind during certain years. But the Holy Spirit trumps biology. God’s power is made perfect in weakness.

This is a huge challenge and a difficult struggle. I see on Page 1 someone recommended gay Catholic support sites. I hope you will pass these along. Every soul is precious to God. Every person can bring Christ to the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. He must not get lost or destroy himself. He is a beautiful and beloved child of God.

 

[Leegal]

If you have a strong enough conviction not to do so, you could not jump off of a skyscraper.

As someone who’s ‘been there’, I think it’s unfortunate that so many people, especially Christians, believe that humans are capable of developing or diminishing attractions to all sorts of things – junk food, hard drugs, theft and violence, and pornography, yet reach a barrier in trying to comprehend that we can condition sexuality.

I am sorry but I cannot get with the analogy. We are taught or fed junk food, growing up to crave it. We can choose to change our eating habits. We experiment with things such as drugs and porn (choice), and we can become addicted to use (still choice). I am not inclined to suicide (choice albeit one that may not be made in a right mind), I would not choose to jump off a building.

I do not believe that people choose their sexual orientation. Only God knows how and why this happens. It’s not for me to judge them on this basis. We may be disagreeing over the topic with minds that are not sufficient to understand the complexity of human sexual orientation – nor with God’s knowledge and understanding of how homosexual orientation occurs.

Now, if I as a hetero choose to experiment for sexual gratification, curiosity, then I have made the choice to sin – but I have not chosen to change my orientation because I would still be hetero, but I have chosen to sin. Likewise, a homosexual, by Church’s teaching, must abstain.

My point is he/she did not choose to be homosexual, but must make the choice not to sin. After all, heteros are prohibited from engaging in sex without the benefit of a consecrated marriage. The sin is not in “being”, the sin is if we choose to act upon that orientation outside of Church teaching. That holds equally for both orientations.

 

[cemiller]

Evidence all leans toward genetic right now. But I see the attraction of wanting it to be environmental because it leads to hope for a fundamental change. I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation at this point.

I didn’t read all the other responses, but the real issue here is how much pain your friend is in. No one should hate the themselves, especially for being as made. What I wish your friend knew, is that God loves him as much as any person ever created. A much as any Saint or Pope, or anyone else. Young men have special challenges because biology makes sexuality number one in mind during certain years. But the Holy Spirit trumps biology. God’s power is made perfect in weakness.

This is a huge challenge and a difficult struggle. I see on Page 1 someone recommended gay Catholic support sites. I hope you will pass these along. Every soul is precious to God. Every person can bring Christ to the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. He must not get lost or destroy himself. He is a beautiful and beloved child of God.

I’ve said it in this thread already, but the “all the evidence” does not lean towards genetic. They’ve done studies on identical twins where 1 is straight and 1 is gay. Only 20% were both gay out of the twins involved in the study. Not to mention the “gay gene” was overstated, even the original researcher said that. There is no proof thus far of the mother’s hormone theory, that I am aware of. Even the APA changed their wording on the subject to include evironmental reasons for homosexuality. Their site still states that it is most likely a combination of biological and evironmental, but no where says it’s all genetic. If you would like a link to it, please see my earlier posts…

 

[ivebeenshown]

I am sorry but I cannot get with the analogy. We are taught or fed junk food, growing up to crave it. We can choose to change our eating habits. We experiment with things such as drugs and porn (choice), and we can become addicted to use (still choice). I am not inclined to suicide (choice albeit one that may not be made in a right mind), I would not choose to jump off a building.

I do not believe that people choose their sexual orientation. Only God knows how and why this happens. It’s not for me to judge them on this basis. We may be disagreeing over the topic with minds that are not sufficient to understand the complexity of human sexual orientation – nor with God’s knowledge and understanding of how homosexual orientation occurs.

Now, if I as a hetero choose to experiment for sexual gratification, curiosity, then I have made the choice to sin – but I have not chosen to change my orientation because I would still be hetero, but I have chosen to sin. Likewise, a homosexual, by Church’s teaching, must abstain.

My point is he/she did not choose to be homosexual, but must make the choice not to sin. After all, heteros are prohibited from engaging in sex without the benefit of a consecrated marriage. The sin is not in “being”, the sin is if we choose to act upon that orientation outside of Church teaching. That holds equally for both orientations.

This is exactly what I do not understand – acknowledging that we can be attracted to eating certain foods and CHANGE that attraction to healthier foods, but denying that we can change our sexual attraction. It makes no sense. Both eating and sexual intercourse invoke chemical reactions in the brain. There are triggers, reactions, etc. all of the classical psychological traits and connections. It’s no different than Pavlov’s dogs.

But of course, someone who renounces homosexual ways and grows as a person into a more healthy perspective on sexuality is often classified is ‘closeted’, or a ‘repressed bisexual’ by those who deny what we learn in the first semester of Basic Psychology.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

This is exactly what I do not understand – acknowledging that we can be attracted to eating certain foods and CHANGE that attraction to healthier foods, but denying that we can change our sexual attraction. It makes no sense. Both eating and sexual intercourse invoke chemical reactions in the brain. There are triggers, reactions, etc. all of the classical psychological traits and connections. It’s no different than Pavlov’s dogs.

But of course, someone who renounces homosexual ways and grows as a person into a more healthy perspective on sexuality is often classified is ‘closeted’, or a ‘repressed bisexual’ by those who deny what we learn in the first semester of Basic Psychology.

Except this doesn’t explain why a person might be only attract to their same sex without ever engaging in sex.