How can you have the Real Presence without Transubstantiation?

[StCsDavid]

SPOKENWORD:

So you believe we are living in the Holy City right now.?The mission here on earth is to bring in the lost. God Bless

I’m not avoiding your question about the Holy City (we’ll get there in few posts I’m sure) and I agree we all have a mission to bring in the lost as you say.

Let’s try this again asked slightly a different way…Who is the Bride and what specifically is her mission?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

StCsDavid:

I’m not avoiding your question about the Holy City (we’ll get there in few posts I’m sure) and I agree we all have a mission to bring in the lost as you say.

Let’s try this again asked slightly a different way…Who is the Bride and what specifically is her mission?

The Bride is made up of every born again believer,called the Church.(us). Our mission is to obey and follow Jesus Christ and do what He commands such as go out and proclaim the Good News and bring in the lost. God Bless

 

[StCsDavid]

SPOKENWORD:

The Bride is made up of every born again believer,called the Church.(us). Our mission is to obey and follow Jesus Christ and do what He commands such as go out and proclaim the Good News and bring in the lost. God Bless

Ah, good. We’re in agreement in that the Bride is indeed the Church (while I wouldn’t necessarily use the term “born again” we are all indeed joined as one Church through our baptism in Christ) which does indeed have its mission to bring the light of truth to the non-believer. But wait there’s more because the Church has another mission. What do you make of Rev 22:1-2? Tell me your take on what this “river of water” means.
Yours in Christ.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

StCsDavid:

Ah, good. We’re in agreement in that the Bride is indeed the Church (while I wouldn’t necessarily use the term “born again” we are all indeed joined as one Church through our baptism in Christ) which does indeed have its mission to bring the light of truth to the non-believer. But wait there’s more because the Church has another mission. What do you make of Rev 22:1-2? Tell me your take on what this “river of water” means.
Yours in Christ.

Unless you are born again you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.This river of water is the same river that flows out of Jesus Christ. Anyone who drinks from it will have eternal life.Anyone who drinks of this water will never thirst again(spiritually). God Bless

 

[StCsDavid]

SPOKENWORD:

Unless you are born again you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.This river of water is the same river that flows out of Jesus Christ. Anyone who drinks from it will have eternal life.Anyone who drinks of this water will never thirst again(spiritually). God Bless

We have been born, claimed actually, by Christ in our baptism through the working of the Holy Spirit. Yes, this is true. But does not the Bride make available the water? It would seem to be the fullfillment of Ezekiel 47: 6-12. Also, take a close gander at John 4:39. Christ had yet to send the spirit to the Apostles as he not yet been glorified. These Apostles, led by Peter, are commissioned by Christ to lead His Church. The water then is the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church… through the Chruch, to the world through the Sacrament of Baptism. So the Bride can’t be all of us as we are not all empowered to administer the Sacrament. Yet the Bride is the Church…as is the New Jerusalem. Give it some prayerful thought before you dismiss it.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

StCsDavid:

We have been born, claimed actually, by Christ in our baptism through the working of the Holy Spirit. Yes, this is true. But does not the Bride make available the water? It would seem to be the fullfillment of Ezekiel 47: 6-12. Also, take a close gander at John 4:39. Christ had yet to send the spirit to the Apostles as he not yet been glorified. These Apostles, led by Peter, are commissioned by Christ to lead His Church. The water then is the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church… through the Chruch, to the world through the Sacrament of Baptism. So the Bride can’t be all of us as we are not all empowered to administer the Sacrament. Yet the Bride is the Church…as is the New Jerusalem. Give it some prayerful thought before you dismiss it.

I believe you need to do some research on what born again means. I understand that the CCC makes no mention of this term,But in John 3;3 Jesus says,’‘I tell you the truth,NO ONE can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again.’’ God Bless

 

[Mickey]

John 3: 3-5

Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?

Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

John 3: 3-5

Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?

Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mickey tell me in your own words what being born again means? God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Mickey tell me in your own words what being born again means? God Bless

You just read it in the inerrant divinely inspired Word of God. You don’t need to hear it in my words.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

You just read it in the inerrant divinely inspired Word of God. You don’t need to hear it in my words.

Okay,then explain the Word of God to Me . God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Okay,then explain the Word of God to Me . God Bless

In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Thanks Mickey for cooperating. God Bless

 

[StCsDavid]

SPOKENWORD:

I believe you need to do some research on what born again means. I understand that the CCC makes no mention of this term,But in John 3;3 Jesus says,’‘I tell you the truth,NO ONE can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again.’’ God Bless

It’s not that we think the term is completely wrong, it’s just only half the story. Baptism is just the beginning of the beautiful gifts that Christ has given us. He and Paul both warned that we could lose the gift of salvation
(John 15:6) and (1 Corinthians 9:26)

And too, take a peek at (1 Corinthians 10:1-10).

Paul seems to be telling folks they are at risk
as well.

 

[allhers]

John 3: 3-5

Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?

Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Born again= Baptism

 

[Aaron_I]

allhers:

Born again= Baptism

Baptism is necessary for salvation
Eucharist is necessary for salvation
Faith completed by works is necessary for salvation

A necessary cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. The Bible doesn’t say, “if you are born again, you will see the kingdom of heaven.” That would imply a suficient cause of salvation. Rather it presents it as something that is necessary. It does the same for faith (as everyone would agree), but read James 2 for a better understanding of faith. Also, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” There you have the eucharist being necessary for salvation.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Aaron I.:

Baptism is necessary for salvation
Eucharist is necessary for salvation
Faith completed by works is necessary for salvation

A necessary cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. The Bible doesn’t say, “if you are born again, you will see the kingdom of heaven.” That would imply a suficient cause of salvation. Rather it presents it as something that is necessary. It does the same for faith (as everyone would agree), but read James 2 for a better understanding of faith. Also, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” There you have the eucharist being necessary for salvation.

Salvation is a gift given to us by His grace and mercy.It,s not taken away if we fail to recieve communion.Holy Scripture makes no such condition. So much for Mark 16;16 God Bless

 

[Melchior]

b_justb:

Consubstantiation (Luthers view) is the view that the bread and wine of Communion / the Lord’s Supper are seen to spiritually be the flesh and blood of Jesus, but yet the bread and wine are still actually only bread and wine. In this way, it is different from

Calvin’s view: In the Lord’s Supper believers are lifted up to heaven by the Holy Spirit, where Christ is seated, and feed on him by faith. Calvin then proceeds to confess: “Now if anyone should ask me how this takes place, I shall not be ashamed to confess that it is a secret too lofty for either my mind to comprehend or my words to declare. And, to speak more plainly, I rather experience than understand it. Therefore, I here embrace without controversy the truth of God in which I may safely rest. He declares his flesh the food of my soul, his blood its drink [John 6:53ff.]. I offer my soul to him to be fed with such food. In his Sacred Supper he bids me take, eat, and drink his body and blood under the symbols of bread and wine. I do not doubt that he himself truly presents them, and that I receive them.” (Institutes, 4.17.32)

Transubstantiation (Catholic view) where the bread and the wine are believed to actually become the body and blood of Jesus.

Respectfully that is not the Lutheran view. Consubstantiation is often attributed to the Lutherans but it is not exactly accurate and they would challenge it. Consubstantiation pertains to the two natures of Christ and is categorically unfit for describing the Eucharistic presence held to by Lutherans. They believe Christ is physically present with the bread and wine. The say HE is In, with and under the bread and wine. So they do believe He is truly present in a physical manner. They just believe the bread and wine remain bread and wine while mysteriously also being the body and blood of Christ. So they believe that truly consume Christ while they also are truly consuming bread and wine.

You have Calvin’s view down pat, though.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

NotWorthy:

Question: How can a piece of unleavened bread take on the substance of a divine God?

Answer: The same way a divine God can became fully human at the same time.

Why is this so difficult to understand???

Notworthy

By that reasoning why is it hard to believe that the Eucharist can be both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ? I am not making a case for or against - but it does follow from your logic. I mean St. Paul repeatedly calls the the Eucharist bread and wine. Was he wrong?

Mel

 

[Aaron_I]

Melchior:

By that reasoning why is it hard to believe that the Eucharist can be both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ? I am not making a case for or against - but it does follow from your logic. I mean St. Paul repeatedly calls the the Eucharist bread and wine. Was he wrong?

Mel

The difference would be that Christ’s body is a part of his being. After all, the body is an intrinsic part of humanity. The bread and wine, on the other hand, are not a part of Christ’s being. The essence’s of two different things cannot merge.

 

[Sherlock]

Melchior:

By that reasoning why is it hard to believe that the Eucharist can be both bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ? I am not making a case for or against - but it does follow from your logic. I mean St. Paul repeatedly calls the the Eucharist bread and wine. Was he wrong?

Mel

My understanding (perhaps someone more learned can correct me if I’m wrong) was that “bread and wine” were simply the words used to name the sacrament— a word such as “Eucharist” had not yet come into use.

As for why the Eucharist can’t be both bread and wine AND the Body and Blood—Jesus didn’t say, “This is also my body” and, “This is also my blood”.