How can you keep telling yourselves this?

[StrawberryJam]

A while back, I had asked the normal questions. Of course, at the beggining they mostly involved questions about suffering.
I was told that all the suffering is allowed for the greater good to come about.

At one point, I asked how much suffering must continue for how long for the plan to come together? It’s been a really long time since Jesus died and rose, and quite intensive suffering for many. Then Japan has their crisis.

I come here looking for prayer threads for them and instead I find the most objectionable thread regarding the tragedy. Makes Pat Robertson look sane.

I search other christian forums. I get ill.

The suffering going on in Japan is too much for me to continue to hope that any kind of God could allow for a “greater good” who knows when, and who knows even why it would be needed for this so called good.

I think I am suffering a true mental breakdown over this. I feel as if I am utterly helpless and useless to do much at all. I sent my donation to the Red Cross. I went to Mass this morning and the priest did not ask for prayers for Japan (but he did for the boy scout pankake breakfast!!! Woo hoo!!!)

I am sick inside. I feel hallow and empty and am I angry at ever being silly enough to investigate faith.

 

[danserr]

I think I am suffering a true mental breakdown over this. I feel as if I am utterly helpless and useless to do much at all

Your response is almost a sensible one. The English Cardinal Newman once said that if he believed that the sufferings and injustices of the present life would not be made right in another one, then he should go mad.
He did not go mad, precisely because he was able to believe in a heaven where the sufferings of the present life could be made right.
Besides, it is not as if God just sits on his hands in heaven watching the suffering happen; he became man Himself and entered into and shared human suffering. He suffered rejection from his hometown, misunderstanding from his family, betrayal from one of his closest friends; he suffered from a corrupt sham trial, and finally a slow and torturous death. And then He rose.

He said, when he ascended, “I am going to prepare a place for you,” which means that, just as God himself suffered and rose, people can as well. He suffered to give us heaven, and that access to heaven can make right the wrongs and sufferings of the present life. And the sufferings what is more, will become part of our glory. Jesus still had his wounds after he arose, but the memory of them no longer tortured him; rather he had won out over them and were signs of his victory over his suffering. The same can apply for us.

So your response is in many ways right and sensible. Instead, however, you should consider that God does not simply sit apathetically and watch human suffering, he entered into and shared it. And he did this to open the doors of heaven, which, once attained, will make right the wrongs of this world and turn that suffering to glory.

Fulton Sheen remarked (quoting, Nietsche, I think, of all people), that “we can bear anything in this world, any kind of a how, as long as we know the way,” and the why was given, on the road to Emmaus.

 

[wjp984]

The beauty that God created in this universe and the Earth is amazing but unfortunately includes such things as earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, etc. Tragedies occur but that does not mean God doesn’t love us all and care for all the lives that were lost.

Without earthquakes and volcanoes there would be no mountains. There would be no Hawaiian islands nor Japan to begin with. It is a very interesting concept how the very things that are essential to our existence also kill us.

Take the sun for example. It’s one gigantic hydrogen bomb and we live off the fuel. Likewise, electricity can both save and kill lives. Basically almost everything that is essential to our lives also can kill us.

We are all aware of the natural disaster risks that ocurr in our areas and try to take precautions as best as possible. Some live in hurricane land, others in tornado ally, I personally live in earthquake country myself.

I suppose one can make the argument that a benevolent God would have created a world and universe that did not need natural disasters to function. However, that perfect world is Heaven which we are all striving to get to. As to whiy it is necessary to have this life rather than Heaven to begin with, you can look at the numerous other disccusion threads on the topic.

 

[Rence]

The beauty that God created in this universe and the Earth is amazing but unfortunately includes such things as earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, etc. Tragedies occur but that does not mean God doesn’t love us all and care for all the lives that were lost.

Without earthquakes and volcanoes there would be no mountains. There would be no Hawaiian islands nor Japan to begin with. It is a very interesting concept how the very things that are essential to our existence also kill us.

Take the sun for example. It’s one gigantic hydrogen bomb and we live off the fuel. Likewise, electricity can both save and kill lives. Basically almost everything that is essential to our lives also can kill us.

We are all aware of the natural disaster risks that ocurr in our areas and try to take precautions as best as possible. Some live in hurricane land, others in tornado ally, I personally live in earthquake country myself.

I suppose one can make the argument that a benevolent God would have created a world and universe that did not need natural disasters to function. However, that perfect world is Heaven which we are all striving to get to. As to whiy it is necessary to have this life rather than Heaven to begin with, you can look at the numerous other disccusion threads on the topic.

Thank you for one of the most sensible posts I’ve read on this forum today

 

[Gertabelle]

I don’t know what exactly you’re asking – it’s way too late for me – so please forgive me if I’m just missing the point.

Regarding the disasters in Japan – God has a perfect will, that we humans mess up a lot; and God has a permissive will that is what we get a lot due to our own choices. God did not plan some natural disaster as a good thing. But He will bring good out of it – opportunities to grow in compassion, humility, service, faith, etc.

As for the suffering you speak of… well, I’m no theologian, but suffering is just part of the human condition. God has not promised us perfect happiness in this life. He offered that to our first parents, Adam and Eve, but they chose to do their own thing instead. And so it began (suffering, that is).

Last March, I had a terrible accident with my table saw and mangled my left hand (amputated index finger below the first knuckle, no feeling in part of middle finger, locked first knuckle in pinky). I’m a musician (piano, guitar, recorder, harp, flute) so this accident was more than just an appearance thing to me. I learned the amazing pain of hand and bone injuries, and got the opportunity to explain over and over and over again that my hand would never be the same (I have over 600 elementary students) – I got so sick of “teachable moments”

So here’s my point (can you believe I actually had one!) – in spite of the horrible suffering, I wouldn’t change a thing about what happened. SO MUCH good came of this event!!

The problem of suffering is a hard one, and it shouldn’t be relegated to pithy little platitudes. Suffering is awful, which is why we call it suffering But it’s always harder to watch it in others, because it would be cruel to start talking to a suffering person about all the good that’s going to come out of a situation. Rather, as Christians, we are called to comfort, to support, to rebuild with those who are suffering.

I know many of us who call ourselves Christian totally stink at this. God forgive us. If we weren’t such total hypocrites we wouldn’t need the Church

Hang in there, keep searching for God, and don’t get too discouraged by those of us trying to follow Him but failing miserably.

God bless you.

Gertie

 

[Debra_C]

I think I understand what you mean. I have read plenty of comments about the Internet that go something like “God is trying to get our attention! Are you listening yet? Be ready!” Following Katrina (a disaster I experienced personally) there were a goodly number claiming it was sent as a punishment. Such statements have come from many people, both Catholic and Protestant. But I do not believe that God inflicts these disasters on us. I believe that they are natural, just as the label natural disaster implies. They are simply a part of how the earth works. And while I believe our God is powerful enough to stop them, I am not necessarily surprised that He does not interfere. Death is a part of our lives just as much as birth. Earthquakes, volcanoes, and weather calamities are a part of the earth’s continuing cycle of life. Why things unfold the way they do, I cannot say. But I do know that where there is suffering, no matter how big or how small, the Lord is there in the midst of it, loving us, walking with us, giving us strength, offering us hope, comfort and peace. I pray that you are able to find peace, too.

 

[Debra_C]

The suffering going on in Japan is too much for me to continue to hope that any kind of God could allow for a “greater good” who knows when, and who knows even why it would be needed for this so called good.

This part of your OP kind of stood out to me, and I’d like to answer it separately. I believe the things you are hearing about the greater good stem from this scripture passage:

“We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose… What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?” (Romans 8:28-31)

It should be noted that this passage is not specifically about suffering caused by natural disaster. However, It does offer an important note of hope. I don’t interpret this as many others do. I don’t believe it is telling us that God sends disasters by His will for the sake of an illusive greater good. Rather I see it as a reminder that God will not forget or abandon us when we are suffering, and that He will find a way to bring something good out of the bad as only He can. I’m sure you have heard the adage “When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.” Our Lord is here with us to help make that lemonade, and He’s brought along plenty of sugar for all to use.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I went to Mass this morning and the priest did not ask for prayers for Japan

FWIW, at my Parish, the Prayers of Intercession are typed-up by the Parish secretary on Friday, and read by a lector at weekend Masses.

The quake happened late at night last Thursday (about 10:00 pm, local time), and by Friday morning the news outlets were reporting unexpectedly light causalities (less than 400), with no mention of nuclear plant meltdowns. The tsunami had not yet hit Japan by the time Friday-morning stories went to press, although the possible threat was reported.

I attended Sunday evening Mass, and the Japan situation WAS included in the prayers (apparently having been added in by someone after the nature of the situation had been made more apparent - I doubt it was in the original Friday notes typed up by the secretary, and I don’t know if it had been included for earlier Saturday Vigil or Sunday morning Masses at my Parish). Other parishes might have not kept up with current events as well, and may have failed to add this into their notes.

My advice: go to Mass next week. I have a feeling that you will hear prayers for the people of Japan.

 

[William_Pitts]

A while back, I had asked the normal questions. Of course, at the beggining they mostly involved questions about suffering.
I was told that all the suffering is allowed for the greater good to come about.

At one point, I asked how much suffering must continue for how long for the plan to come together? It’s been a really long time since Jesus died and rose, and quite intensive suffering for many. Then Japan has their crisis.

I come here looking for prayer threads for them and instead I find the most objectionable thread regarding the tragedy. Makes Pat Robertson look sane.

I search other christian forums. I get ill.

The suffering going on in Japan is too much for me to continue to hope that any kind of God could allow for a “greater good” who knows when, and who knows even why it would be needed for this so called good.

I think I am suffering a true mental breakdown over this. I feel as if I am utterly helpless and useless to do much at all. I sent my donation to the Red Cross. I went to Mass this morning and the priest did not ask for prayers for Japan (but he did for the boy scout pankake breakfast!!! Woo hoo!!!)

I am sick inside. I feel hallow and empty and am I angry at ever being silly enough to investigate faith.

I feel your pain. Many years ago I left my church, and Christianity because of the suffering I saw in the world. I became angry at God because I felt He could have stopped the suffering. I can’t give you any answers. Only God Himself knows the answer, but I can tell you what made a difference for me and brought me back from the brink. I fell into despair. I attempted suicide and failed. I lost a place to live and had to move in with my son.

One day, I stepped on something and soon thereafter I ended up in the hospital with a severe infection. I stayed for more than a month. I was on IV antibiotics for most of that time. My kidneys were wrecked and my bone marrow was destroyed. I lost everything I had in the world and I almost lost my life.

I lay in the hospital bed, feeling sorry for myself and a thought ran through my mind, “Maybe we have to be put on our back to look up and look for God.”

C.S. Lewis said, “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”

Maybe God is shouting to mankind and begging them to come to Him.

There is a whole book about this, Job. Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

2Co 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all consolation, who consoles us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to console those who are in any affliction with the consolation with which we ourselves are consoled by God. For just as the sufferings of Christ are abundant for us, so also our consolation is abundant through Christ.

I see two Catholic Churches. One is composed of the shepherds of the Church and the other is the members of the body of Christ ministering to a suffering world. Caring for the sick and the poor. Feeding those who are hungry. Helping to heal those who are hurting. Caring for the unloved or discarded by society.

The fact that you are hurting for those who are suffering is evidence that the Holy Spirit is creating in you a caring, Christ like heart.

Mat 25:32-40 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”
Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?”
And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.

You are not silly at all. You are an honest caring person. God bless you on your journey.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don’t know how but He will make it right

 

[Edmundus1581]

My advice: go to Mass next week. I have a feeling that you will hear prayers for the people of Japan.

We said prayers for Japan at the 5:30 PM Sunday Mass, at our 9:15 AM Monday mass, and in the prayer group afterwards.

I also suspect that where there haven’t been prayers for Japan it will not have been out of lack of caring, but simply “compassion fatigue”. Over the last 3 months we’ve had an unusual amount of causes to pray for, and donate too. I sure hope the next disaster doesn’t happen to me - perphaps there will be no one left to care!

 

[NHInsider]

This part of your OP kind of stood out to me, and I’d like to answer it separately. I believe the things you are hearing about the greater good stem from this scripture passage:

“We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose… What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?” (Romans 8:28-31)

It should be noted that this passage is not specifically about suffering caused by natural disaster. However, It does offer an important note of hope. I don’t interpret this as many others do. I don’t believe it is telling us that God sends disasters by His will for the sake of an illusive greater good. Rather I see it as a reminder that God will not forget or abandon us when we are suffering, and that He will find a way to bring something good out of the bad as only He can. I’m sure you have heard the adage “When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.” Our Lord is here with us to help make that lemonade, and He’s brought along plenty of sugar for all to use.

This is super-important because it does get misinterpreted so often. God can bring good even out of evil - as He did with the Crucifixion. This is not the same as saying that He wills evil.

The first time I had cancer some well-meaning Christians said things to me that would have turned me against God forever if I hadn’t already had a strong faith. We should avoid platitudes and we should avoid trying to “explain away” trouble and tragedy. That was the error of Job’s friends.

God does not need us or ask us to explain what is happening. He calls us to reach out and do whatever we can for those in need - whether this means getting on a plane with a rescue team, donating money, or getting on our knees to pray for the sufferers is going to be different for each of us.

 

[Windfish]

StrawberryJam:

I feel hallow and empty and am I angry at ever being silly enough to investigate faith.

If you are really investigating the Faith, I am surprised you have not already investigated the so-called “problem of evil.”

I am actually surprised at your sentimentality, StrawberryJam, I have not seen that side of you. Do you live in Japan?

 

[Spirithound]

At one point, I asked how much suffering must continue for how long for the plan to come together? It’s been a really long time since Jesus died and rose, and quite intensive suffering for many. Then Japan has their crisis.

Hi! Have you ever read CS Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain” ? It really helped me to put pain and suffering into perspective. One thing that he says, that I think speaks to part of your question, is that suffering is individual; there is no “sum total of pain”.

So, the suffering that an individual receives only works towards their own sanctification, and whatever intentions they themselves may have. What this means is that yes, it has been a long time since Jesus died and rose, but it would be a mistake to see all the suffering in the world as a continuation of the suffering of the past 2 millennia; each suffering individual has only been suffering as long as they have been living, and each new person is going to suffer in their own time too.

The Masses that I have been to, we have prayed for Japan.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Since Japan is pagan and a closed country, maybe Christians going in to help will be accepted and the gospel can spread there. I see that as the greater good.

Jesus told us not to show off our prayers, many of us have been in our prayer closet praying for the souls of people there and praying for their needs and pain. We don’t make a grand show of it.

 

[Church_Militant]

SJ I don’t know how you missed these. This one has been up since the moment we first heard about the quake.

• Please pray for us in Japan
• Praying for Japan and our move there
• Pray for no radiation sickness in Japan

 

[Church_Militant]

Since Japan is pagan and a closed country, maybe Christians going in to help will be accepted and the gospel can spread there. I see that as the greater good.

Jesus told us not to show off our prayers, many of us have been in our prayer closet praying for the souls of people there and praying for their needs and pain. We don’t make a grand show of it.

Japan is pagan? Sendai just happens to be one of the largest Catholic diocese in Japan, with over 50,000 Catholics out of about 100,000 people. There are a lot of Catholics in Japan and have been for centuries.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Dear OP,

When you see/hear people saying that natural disasters are God’s plan to punish heathen, it is indeed depressing. It’s like the Westboro “Baptist” members just got a new influx of membership or something. I think people these days are desperate to make sense of the world and are grabbing at any explanation for these unexpected tragedies. We don’t like the unpredictability of the world we live in so we try to tell ourselves we know what is going on and why. But our lovely world has its dangers. Back in the Dark Ages, those people had no idea what was happening if there was an earthquake or a volcano or even a lunar eclipse, so they blamed it on the Devil, or witches, or God’s wrath. And they came up with a plan so that it wouldn’t happen to them again - they burned the witches, or made sacrifices to God, or had exorcisms to get the Devil out of people…etc.

I believe and there is scientific evidence that these movements of the earth’s surface, volcanic explosions, and weather phenomena such as tornadoes and hurricanes, are RANDOM, not caused by God’s direct hand. Weather is especially capricious. Do we really believe God does this to us? That to me would be discounting Jesus’ life and mission completely, for that would be the Old Testament God, Yahweh, who punished his people Israel when they were stubborn and stiff-necked.

The other factor is the media - when things like this happen, they practically slobber all over themselves documenting the TRAGEDY and not the good that comes from it. I know a lot of people died, but Japan is a densely populated island and a lot of people DID NOT die. Today the media is hunting and probing for evidence of LOOTING, and they can’t believe the Japanese people aren’t letting the animalistic side of themselves out. In fact there are shopkeepers who are giving their goods away to help people but do you hear about that? No. The news is negative, it’s what sells. Turn off the TV and just say a prayer for all the people in Japan.

Just think - maybe 1 Buddhist has converted since the tragedy! Angels are rejoicing with every one!!!

 

[MDK]

A while back, I had asked the normal questions. Of course, at the beggining they mostly involved questions about suffering.
I was told that all the suffering is allowed for the greater good to come about.

At one point, I asked how much suffering must continue for how long for the plan to come together? It’s been a really long time since Jesus died and rose, and quite intensive suffering for many. Then Japan has their crisis.

…

The suffering going on in Japan is too much for me to continue to hope that any kind of God could allow for a “greater good” who knows when, and who knows even why it would be needed for this so called good…

Life in this natural world is never promised to be paradise for us, but the next is where paradise is found.

Suffering and death are not by far the worst things that can happen to us. Being outside God’s friendship is the worst thing, both here and in eternity. Suffering without God in our lives is empty and purposeless pain with no joy of attachment to Him. Dying outside of friendship with God is eternal unhappiness. But, when we die in the friendship of God, we have eternal happiness with Him, free from the temporary hardships and suffering that may happen to us or others we love while in this world. The supernatural is where paradise is, both while we are here in His comfort and love if we suffer and when we die, and in eternal life where there we are perfected and made whole with Him in joy and happiness.

Without God and His promise of eternal life with Him, this world makes little to no sense. Human tragedies due to earthquakes sadden me and get me to pray, but these things don’t shake me due to God’s presence and His offering of eternal joy and happiness. God’s plan for us to be with Him is true, and is reality that we can trust in completely and participate in whole heartedly.

This is why the state of mind of believing there is no God (atheism), or not trusting there is a God (agnosticism) will leave someone empty and unable to reconcile the universe… because those views lack the fullness of truth. God is that Truth.

 

[Theophilus777]

Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him. It was prophecied in Isaiah 53 that He would be a Man of Sorrows.
Jesus suffered. He was rejected by those to whom He was sent, abandoned by His closest friends in His hour of greatest need, He was accused of being in league with the devil, He was driven out of towns and cities by angry mobs. We know that Jesus wept.
And while He healed the sick and raised the dead and fed the hungry and did many things to bring justice to this world, the simple truth is that healing the sick and raising the dead and feeding the hungry are all symptoms of a greater problem. That problem is sin. The world is the vale of tears that it is because we have all rejected God and disobeyed Him. There is suffering in the world because we have all chosen our own way over God’s will, our desires above His desires, our pleasure above God’s pleasure. We were not created for suffering but then we were not created to be selfish either, and that is why Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. We cannot be like Him without this Cross, and the path that leads to the joy and peace and freedom and comfort we all seek can’t be had without this Cross.
That’s what the season of Lent is all about. We recognize that through our own choice of sin we are separated from God. We feel sorrow for sin, our sin, the sin that other people commit, and the effects of sin not only upon our own lives but upon all the natural world that God created and entrusted to us. God did not drop the ball, but rather we did.
The standard is holiness, because He is holy, and we are created in His image and likeness and if we will be like Him we will be holy also. Every day of the 40 days of Lent leads to the Cross, but the Cross leads to the Resurrection, and that is why every year we take up our Cross and suffer the pains of the penances we endure because the only way to have a new life is to die to the old one. That is what the Cross is for. That is why in this life we suffer. What helps us to endure the suffering is the hope that God has given us, indelibly promised us, and that hope is that we too will rise and enter a Kingdom in which God will reign supreme and and we will be His children forever.
The very last book of the Bible has this to say"
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God, prepared as a Bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying Now the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes.There will be no more death, or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
There is alot to be said about suffering. Suffering is not meaningless. In God’s economy suffering accomplishes something. We are made holy by the Cross of Christ and also by the Crosses that are given us to bear. Jesus promised us we would have them. That is why we celebrate Lent.
The end of it all is Resurrection. Jesus promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise. You can look all you want for Paradise in this life but the only thing you’re going to find is suffering and tsunamis and earthquakes. Paradise is what we are waiting for. We believe. Remember that when Easter finally arrives.

 

[Church_Militant]

Japan is pagan? Sendai just happens to be one of the largest Catholic diocese in Japan, with over 50,000 Catholics out of about 100,000 people. There are a lot of Catholics in Japan and have been for centuries.

It seems I got my numbers wrong for Sendai. This article corrects that.
Japan is struck by disaster - Catholic diocese first victim of quake