How certain are we that God exists?

[ThinkingSapien]

Please forgive me, but would you please save me the trouble of looking up your post

Second half of post #157…

where you replied to me earlier on what object you would propose in place of the nose for us to work on . . .]

In my reply I wasn’t proposing a new object. See the second half of post #157 to see why. (or post #153).

 

[jochoa]

So, everyone, let us now engage in the serious exercise of working together to concur on the most fundamental idea of certainty.

Interesting discussion.

For me the most fundamental ideas of certainty are:
If there is no certainty of the creator of everything, then nothing is certain.
Since the creator of everything is certain, then If the creator of the everything would do it, then it is guaranteed to exist for any thing of the everything.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

[Just in case you don’t want to talk about the nose in regard to certainty of its existence with us all humans] In your next post, from each of you both and others who care to join in, please just propose what object you want me to join you in examining in regard to its existence, namely, that our information of its existence is certain.

KingCoil

Again, apples and oranges. We do not go from the nose on our face to the nose on
God’s face. You have already conceded this, so why are we still talking about that?

Certainty can be inferential or it can be experiential. The nose on your face is not inferential. It is experiential. You know you have a nose because you experience it, not becasue you have inferred it and because others have inferred it with you to confirm your experience. Confirmation of an experience is not essential to the certainty of that experience, whereas confirmation is very valuable with respect to inferential certainty, as any scientist will tell you.

But the experience of God is not a scientific question. It is purely a religious question. In the event of a false experience of God, it would also be a philosophical debatable or psychologically debatable experience. But any experience of God can render absolute certainty. The question is not whether my experience of God is true or false, but whether my experience of God leaves no doubt in my mind (and in my heart) that I am absolutely certain about my experience of God.

Do you have an issue with anything I have just said?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

The question is not whether my experience of God is true or false, but whether my experience of God leaves no doubt in my mind (and in my heart) that I am absolutely certain about my experience of God.

Do you have an issue with anything I have just said?

I think there will always be room for faith no matter how certain we* feel* about our experience.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I think there will always be room for faith no matter how certain we* feel* about our experience.

Yes, I am certain of my faith!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

To sum up my thoughts:

The inferential (analytical) certainty of God may be probable, not absolute. There is no convincing inferential reason to believe there is no Creator God. Nor is there an inferential reason to believe a Designer God is not plausible.

Combine the inferential certainty of God’s existence with the experience of God in both the mind and the heart, and you have absolute certainty. Absolute certainty is the subjective experience of an objective reality called faith. For some people this absolute certainty is more vital than it is for others, and that all depends on the degree to which our spirituality has evolved. The mystic is more evolved than the theologian, just as the theologian is more evolved than the philosopher (deist, pantheist, etc.)

Thomas Aquinas, before he died, was graced to evolve beyond the theological certainty into the mystical realm. That is likely one of the reasons why he left the *Summa Theologica *unfinished before he died and from that point on solely dedicated himself to being received by our Lord.

 

[ynotzap]

I should not attend to your post because you are not into the immediate present concern on what is your idea of the most fundamental concept of certainty.

Anyway, we are not concerned here with concepts of God outside Christianity, where in Christianity namely the first and foremost concept of God is that He is the creator of the universe.

Please, now, propose an object if you don’t like the nose in our face, for us to examine in regard to the certainty of its existence; so that we can concur on what is the fundamental idea of certainty, which fundamental idea must be realized in every instance of the use of the word certainty in reference to anything at all, including God Himself.

Here is again my precise and concise statement of what to me is certainty:

KingCoil

Our reference for rational certainty is the real world. It is the object that we come into contact throughout our existence Objectivity, reality apart, from our thinking, not subjectivity which is reality subjected to our thinking, which may or may not be in accordance with objective reality.(truth) Assuming that a person is normal by collective human standards, we come into contact with the real material world through our senses, we are not animals, even though we show we have animality in our nature, but we also show we have rationality in our nature. Homo sapiens, knowing man. By our rationality we can arrive at more objective truth, reality that is real not tangible to the senses, but tangible to the mind, it is called reasoning, or understanding. Because it is not tangible to the senses, but real, we call it spiritual. The intelligence of man is a spiritual facultly of the soul, and so is the will, a faculty of volition, or choice. We can verify again and again everytime we doubt about non-tangible realities. eg: the law of gravity. We don"t see this law, but we can attest to its existence by stepping out of a ten story building, and if we survive we can do it again, and again. (objectivity)

We can approach the existence of God the same way, by cause and effect, by dependence , by origen, by motion, by grades of beings, Cause and effect is a real objective phenomenon of human experience the criterion of all our knowledge. By applying the law of cause and effect, logically we can arrive at the primal cause of our existence. We also apply self-evident principles we find in reality eg. a thing can not be, and be at the same time. the principle of contradiction, we can’t give what we do not possess, By this logic we can reason the existence of a supreme being or God. To verify, or identify this Supreme Being will not be revealed by reason. God is not subject ot reason, He is beyond reason, His is the Creator of reason. God will never be subjected to His creation, but creation to Him. He contacts us anyway He chooses. He contacts us through our spiritual faculties by the infusion of His presence, He make us aware, He sets the conditions of His contacts. He desires Faith in Him and not reason, but faith is reasonable Faith is not the product of reason, it is the gift of the Holy Spirit that comes through Jesus Christ. It is not the product of human effort or reason. And yes God does contact us on His own terms and He is there and we can experience Him over and over when we have doubts. I can verify it from my own experience , It’s like a sledge hammer hitting me in the nose, or better yet, it’s like a 2X4 hitting me across the head to get my attention when I start having doubts about His existence and love for me.

 

[ynotzap]

Well, you are making a conditional statement, first do realize the condition in yourself, then declare that you have already established a relationship with God in your mind and heart, and from that relationship you know from absolute certainty that God exists.

Okay, have you effected the relationship with God?

Better you don’t bring in a conditional statement, give an example of absolute certainty to you of something factually existing like the nose in your face and the nose in the face of your friend, or family member or anyone who can be in physical contact with you, so that you both can see the nose in each other’s face and also touch it, and exchange information on the experience of each other seeing the nose and touching the nose in oneself’s face and also in the other’s face, and concur that there is a nose in each other’s face.
Apply post 149 to the above post
And you both concur that that is absolutely certain that there is a nose in each one’s face.

Now, you apply that idea of absolute certainty to your experience of God.

Is that the same kind of absolute certainty you have from your experience of God, as from your experience of the nose in your face and also in the face of your close friend, etc.?

In which case, you have what I call direct certainty of the nose and also direct certainty of God, but the first kind of direct certainty is of an object that is outside your mind, heart, soul, self whatever, while the second direct certainty is of an object that is experienced within your soul, heart, mind, self whatever.

No need to call that absolute certainty.

But we have not yet concurred on what is to be our agreed on concept of absolute certainty.

Let us first work to get to concur on what is absolute certainty.

Allow me to start first, with the word absolute, it means not relative, is that all right with you?

In my next post I will suggest to you that certainty has to do with the feature in human information on the existence of an object, the feature by which we can verify again and again everytime we have doubts about the object existing.

For example, the existence of ice cream is a piece of information which piece of information has this feature by which when we have any doubts about the existence of ice cream, we can just go and get some in the nearest cold grocery, and eat it – there we have certainty, the direct kind of certainty that ice cream exists.

What do you say, will you accept my invitation to analyze what is certainty?

For myself, the word means a (I am repeating myself) feature of human information by which humans can verify the existence of something he has information about, by experiencing its existence again and again as often as he doubts that the object is existing.

Again, for example, you have the information – that means knowledge. that there is a parking meter outside your house, then you start to doubt it, so you look out the window and assure yourself that yes there is a parking meter outside.

So, what do you say, let us start with certainty as a feature in human information of an object existing, by which feature we can assure ourselves that it is in fact existing by for example looking at it again, and even touching it again, etc., by applying our external senses to it.

That is certainty of the existence of an object outside our self, which is direct certainty; there is also direct certainty of an object that is within our self, for example, the experience of discomfort in an elbow, some aching for a concrete experience, like what I feel right now with my left elbow as I type this post.

Tell you what, as you can notice that I want to get down to facts of everyday’s life in our discussion, on what is certainty and the kinds of, and the kind that is in regard to God’s existence, shall we first examine more carefully what exactly is the word certain all about?

The way I see it, it is a feature of human information on the existence of something, by which feature a human can again and again as often as he is in doubt as to the existence of that something, assure himself that it in fact exists, by looking at it again, touching it again, etc., applying to it our external senses.

That is the most fundamental of certainties.

Apply this post to my above post

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

You see, everyone here, I have this idea that unless we first concur on meanings of words used in the formulation of an issue to be resolved, it is useless altogether to write so much about the issue.

Can you concur with me that that paragraph above is intelligible to you, I write in a manner as simple and as direct and as vocabulary-wise easy for any literate person in the street to grasp my thought.

So, if you do understand my first paragraph here, tell me, do you think that we will ever resolve any issue at all, until and unless we first concur on the meanings of words used.

The topic of this thread is “How certain are we that God exists?”

And so far I have this impression that posters who participate don’t want to work together and with me to concur on the meaning of the word, certain.

Please, do not anymore insist that you have already said this or that and I did not read it, etc., just now tell me what is your understanding of the word, certain, in less than 50 words.

You will counter with the requirement that I be the first one to propose what I understand by the word, certain.

Okay, here is my understanding of the word, certain.

**Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence."
**http://i62.tinypic.com/2iafwcx.jpg

35 words only, and I am asking everyone when you react to my post here to present your own self-thought out meaning of the word, certain, in less than 50 words; and please do not say anything at all for any purpose whatsoever, until and unless you have first at the very top of your post presented your own self-thought up meaning of the word, certain.

So, everyone readers here, see what posters will write in their reaction to this post from yours truly.

KingCoil

 

[yppop]

KingCoil

Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence."

As one who occasionally has had trouble in this forum explicating the meaning of my statements - no matter how clearly I define the associated terms - your struggle to explicate the meaning of the word “certain”, has captured my interest. Your definition seems to me to implicate the philosophical questions regarding objective/subjective reality and inductive/deductive reasoning.

So that I might better understand the meaning of your definition let me ask:

1. Are you implying that “certainty” can be applied only to reality that can be sensed directly?
2. Are you “certain” (in the sense of your definition) that the sun will rise tomorrow?

3, Are you “certain” (in the sense of your definition) that “2+2=4”?

Yppop

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Okay, here is my understanding of the word, certain.

**Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence."

KingCoil**

This thread is not about the certainty of noses. It’s about the certainty of God.

My take on certainty about God is that we can use both inferential plausibility (the philosopher’s God) and experiential knowledge (knowing and being in a loving relationship with God) as the twofold ways of knowing God with certainty. The philosopher’s God is only halfway known. The mystic’s God is personally experienced and more fully known. The personal experience of God completes and fulfills our inferential knowledge of God as Creator and Designer of the universe.

This is why late in his life Aquinas abandoned the philosopher’s God for the mystic’s God. In the last century another Thomist, the French Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain, did the same thing. After his wife died he retired and joined a religious congregation and gave himself more fully to the personal experience of God.

To reiterate, I think God can be known with partial certainty through the philosopher’s God, but more certainly by the mystical and personal experience of God. But I can see why this is a dubious proposition to those who do not have a personal experience with God. To such people, if they cannot see the nose on God’s face, they cannot be certain of God.
​

​

 

[ynotzap]

I have no doubt that you equate certainty with sense experience and you will never come to the knowledge of God’s existence because like the materialistic evolutionists, and imperical scientists they fail to trancend to a spiritual reality, they are earth-bound. If it isn’t physical it isn’t real. It seems many posters are in agreement on the meaning of words, and ideas, but you are having trouble understanding those common meanings. We have dictionaries to explain the meaning of common words thats the way we communicate. If we can’t be certain about universal truths, or common meanings then we become sceptics who say we can never be sure of anything, and why waste time trying to convince him. He contradicts himself. Why labor the point?

 

[ynotzap]

absolute certainty: Pure, complete, conviction,sure, fixed, no doubt right out of the common dictionary. I have pure, complete conviction, fixed no doubt that God exists, and His Name is Jesus Christ. My faith confirms what my reason reveals and my reason confirms what my faith reveals that Gods’ existence can be known by His creation, we have no excuse.

 

[KingCoil]

KingCoil

Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence.

Thanks for your post.

Forgive me, but will you be most accommodating by first setting forth your own definition of the word, certain, at the top of your post, in less than 50 words.

I assure you that it will be a most enriching experience for you and for me, when we go into comparing our definitions and thereby work toward a definition that we both accept; otherwise we will always be working from definitions that are not concurred on, and that is a waste of time as we will be talking past each other’s head.

I know, I know, you are very eager to get down to debate, but I prefer that before we debate at all, please do invest some good time and work to formulate your own self-thought up concept of the word, certain, in less than 50 words.

If you prefer, you can already take account of my concept of the word in formulating your own self-thought out concept of the word, in less than 50 words.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence.

Thanks for your post.

Forgive me, but will you be most accommodating by first setting forth your own definition of the word, certain, at the top of your post, in less than 50 words.

I assure you that it will be a most enriching experience for you and for me, when we go into comparing our definitions and thereby work toward a definition that we both accept; otherwise we will always be working from definitions that are not concurred on, and that is a waste of time as we will be talking past each other’s head.

I know, I know, you are very eager to get down to debate, but I prefer that before we debate at all, please do invest some good time and work to formulate your own self-thought up concept of the word, certain, in less than 50 words.

If you prefer, you can already take account of my concept of the word in formulating your own self-thought out concept of the word, in less than 50 words.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Dear gentlemen posters here:

Please produce your own self-thought out concept of the word, certain, before you write anything else; yes, in less than 50 words.

I have presented my concept of the word, certain, in less than 50 words.

It is like this, let us imagine that we are bidding to build a car which we will sell to a manufacturing and marketing company, and this company will go into mass production of the car.

So, I have presented my car at a cost of say, less than 50,000.00 dollars.

Here you guys come in without any car models but with a lot of words, what do you think the company interested in our models will tell you?

They the people making the decision to take in one model from the models of cars presented by competitors, they will tell you please don’t talk, first present you car model which you have produced at less than 50,000.00 dollars.

And you know, what the company will tell everyone who has presented a car model at a cost of less than 50,000.00 dollars, the company will tell them all, that they should work together and produce one common model acceptable to the company.

So, dear gentlemen posters here, don’t talk anymore, unless and until you produce your definition of the word, certain, in less than 50 words.

And yes, put it at the top of your post next time you transmit a message here.

KingCoil

 

[yppop]

King
Here’s my definition:
The level of **certainty **of the existence of something depends on probability of the existence of a possible alternative. The lower the probability of the possible alternative, the higher the level of certainty. Absolute certainty means that the something to which it refers has no alternative, 2+2=4 for example.
Yppop

 

[KingCoil]

King
Here’s my definition:
The level of **certainty **of the existence of something depends on probability of the existence of a possible alternative. The lower the probability of the possible alternative, the higher the level of certainty. Absolute certainty means that the something to which it refers has no alternative, 2+2=4 for example.
Yppop

Thanks for cooperating.

Here is my definition of the word, certain:

#178**
Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence.

Now, let us talk about where is the concept of the word an adjective certain or the noun from the adjective, namely, certainty, to be found?

Would you like to be the first between us two to propose where is the concept of the word certain or the word certainty to be found?

You think about that and I will also think about that.

So, examine your definition and I mine, then I will wait for your idea of where the concept of the word is to be found.

I will be back after 12 hours, and if I don’t see your idea of where the concept of the word certain or certainty is found, I will propose my idea where the concept is found.

Thanks again for your cooperation; you have presented your concept of what is certainty the noun from the adjective certain, and you have used 49 words, which are less than 50 words.

I commend you for your cooperation, and I will cooperate with you, so that in the end we will not be talking past each other’s head.

KingCoil

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m not into counting words for definitions, so I guess I’m not qualified to continue. :sad_bye:

 

[PJM]

=KingCoil;11932417]Thanks for your exhortation.

I call myself a defector from Catholicism.

That does not mean that I stop knowing God creator of the universe exists.

You see, there are many ways to defect (the word is of course pejorative) from Catholicism; perhaps I should call myself an ultra-self-liberalized Catholic.

It is like being an ultra-self-liberalized Catholic, one is practically off on a tangent from Catholicism, wherefore a defector from Catholicism in effect – regrettably that is a pejorative term.

Anyway, my immediate concern is to get folks to work to concur on what is the fundamental concept of certainty, so that we have certainty with the existence of our nose as we have certainty of the existence of God creator of the universe: what is the common denominator of man’s certainty of the nose in his face as also of God creator of the universe?

KingCoil

Thank you; So here my friend are a few certainities:

[1] There is BUT

One True God [Tiune]

Who can [logically, Morally and theologically] and DOES have just one set of faith beliefs

& who Founded only One Church to whom God entrust ALL of the “keys” to heavens access. [Today’s Catholic Church]

[2] Heaven, Hell & Purgatory are real

Heaven or hell is OUR choice

And last for eternity. Choose well, while you still can.

God Bless you,
Patrick