How certain are we that God exists?

[yppop]

Thanks for cooperating.

Now, let us talk about where is the concept of the word an adjective certain or the noun from the adjective, namely, certainty, to be found?

Would you like to be the first between us two to propose where is the concept of the word certain or the word certainty to be found?

KingCoil

Hi King;
I don’t understand what you mean by “where is the concept of the adjective certain and the noun certainty”.

Are you implying that the adjective certain is tied to the concept of subjectivity and the noun certainty is tied to objectivity?

Yppop

 

[ynotzap]

Posted by King Coil: What is the common denominator of man’s certainty of the nose on his face as also of God, Creator of the universe?

Existence is the common denominator of man’s certainty of the nose on his face, as also of God Creator of the Universe whether it be known through sensation, or by reasoning, or by Faith. If all didn’t exist we would never know, and the problem of certainty would never arise.

 

[KingCoil]

I’m not into counting words for definitions, so I guess I’m not qualified to continue. :sad_bye:

Yes, thank you, because it is my principle that people should be concise and precise with their thoughts.

So, when you have a thought and you want people to get it precisely and concisely, then work on it to be precise and concise and of course expressed in common simple easy words accessible to literate folks in the street.

You keep on with your insistence that God is not the nose etc., but who is saying that God is the nose?

You see, everyone participating here, come with an open mind and be receptive to ideas from each other on how to come to concurrence on concepts of words used in this thread.

And keep in mind the words used in this thread, namely, “How certain are we that God exists?”

And don’t be complaining that I or someone else is trying to lay traps on you so that you cannot anymore change your statements, etc.

No, no one least of all yours truly is laying traps by which you will be bound beyond escape from your written words once you expressed them in writing.

If you want to change your words, you can always do so; the fact is that we are all here to learn from each other, so why the fear that anyone at all is out to trap you in your words? And what is wrong with changing your words when you realize that they need changing in order for you to express your latest corrected thinking and of course writing?

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Originally Posted by KingCoil
Thanks for cooperating.

Okay, let us think on the sentence that an existing thing is our mind and also outside our mind in the universe outside, or not also in the universe outside independent of our mind.

You understand the above words?

Now, there was a time when no man existed, at that time there was no human mind, so there could not have been the concept of certain and certainty in the human mind, you understand that?

There was only the universe then, so was there the concept certain and certainty in the universe?

You will say that as we are talking about the material universe and since the concept is not a material thing how can it be located in a material universe?

Okay, now we are here with our minds, can we say that the concept of certain and certainty is in our mind? Do you care to notice that you have a concept of certainty which you express in 39 words, so on that consideration the concept is in your mind.

So, will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?

Now, sad to say there are humans whose minds are not so enlightened as to have acquaintance with the concept of certain and certainty: so we can say that for them in their minds there is not found the concept of certain and certainty.

The question I ask you now is and I repeat: “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

If you still don’t understand my question, then ask me, and tell me why you don’t understand my question.

In the meantime do not bring in more terms like objectivity and subjectivity, so that we will not have to work to concur on them, when we can already concur on that there in our mind is the concept of the words, certain and certainty.

Please, when you reply to this post from yours truly, start right away with your answer to my question, “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Posted by King Coil: What is the common denominator of man’s certainty of the nose on his face as also of God, Creator of the universe?

Existence is the common denominator of man’s certainty of the nose on his face, as also of God Creator of the Universe whether it be known through sensation, or by reasoning, or by Faith. If all didn’t exist we would never know, and the problem of certainty would never arise.

I concur with your thoughts, bravo.

Except one item:

If all didn’t exist we would never know, and the problem of certainty would never arise.

As soon as you make that statement, an if statement, then you must follow up with a very big blank space, like this:

ynotzap:

http://i60.tinypic.com/zoaw7s.jpg

That is why I really abhor atheists who start their argument that the universe started from nothing…, is that so? in which case you do not exist ever, so shut up, and go self-extinguish yourself with the rest of your nothing-ness.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Forgive me, everyone, I have to correct some typos in my post below: the words in italics and bold are the corrections.

Originally Posted by yppop

Hi King;
I don’t understand what you mean by “where is the concept of the adjective certain and the noun certainty”.

Are you implying that the adjective certain is tied to the concept of subjectivity and the noun certainty is tied to objectivity?

Okay, let us think on the sentence that an existing thing is *** in *** our mind and also outside our mind in the universe outside, or not also in the universe outside independent of our mind.

You understand the above words?

Now, there was a time when no man existed, at that time there was no human mind, so there could not have been the concept of certain and certainty in the human mind, you understand that?

There was only the universe then, so was there the concept certain and certainty in the universe?

You will say that as we are talking about the material universe and since the concept is not a material thing how can it be located in a material universe?

Okay, now we are here with our minds, can we say that the concept of certain and certainty is in our mind? Do you care to notice that you have a concept of certainty which you express in *** 49 *** words, so on that consideration the concept is in your mind.

So, will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?

Now, sad to say there are humans whose minds are not so enlightened as to have acquaintance with the concept of certain and certainty: so we can say that for them in their minds there is not found the concept of certain and certainty.

The question I ask you now is and I repeat: “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

If you still don’t understand my question, then ask me, and tell me why you don’t understand my question.

In the meantime do not bring in more terms like objectivity and subjectivity, so that we will not have to work to concur on them, when we can already concur on that there in our mind is the concept of the words, certain and certainty.

Please, when you reply to this post from yours truly, start right away with your answer to my question, “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

Forgive me for the typos, but I always try to write as to be understood easily and correctly of course – even though English is not my native tongue.

Sorry.

KingCoil
[/QUOTE]

 

[ynotzap]

King Coil You are right. I should have clarified my statement when I said " that if all did not exist (nose and God) then we would never know, and the problem of certainty would never arise. The statement is true, but because it included God,we wouldn’t exist either . You made your point.

 

[KingCoil]

King Coil You are right. I should have clarified my statement when I said " that if all did not exist (nose and God) then we would never know, and the problem of certainty would never arise. The statement is true, but because it included God, we wouldn’t exist either . You made your point.

Thanks for your concurrence.

Don’t leave this thread.

KingCoil

 

[jochoa]

Thanks for the very enjoyable discussion! I greatly appreciate the reflection material!

Here is my current understanding:
Certain
adj.
known by God

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Personal Reflections on your definition:
Although your words can be a bit strong, they will suffice:

I concur with your thoughts, bravo.
Except one item:

**…if we doubt it…"
**

As soon as you make that statement, an if statement, then you must follow up with a very big blank space, like this:

That is why I really abhor atheists who start their argument that the universe started from nothing…, is that so? in which case you do not exist ever, so shut up, and go self-extinguish yourself with the rest of your nothing-ness.

I personally like your definition, but to rid of the “if” simply remove “again and again if we doubt it.” Your current definition of certain has redundancy which isn’t necessary. If I am certain of a piece of information after having verified its existence by sensing it, then there will never be a time after which cancels the certain experience.

Once again, thanks for the very enjoyable food for thought!

 

[KingCoil]

…]

Here is my current understanding:
Certain
adj.
known by God

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Statistics
Words: 3
Characters (no spaces): 10
Characters (with spaces): 12
Paragraphs: 1
Lines: 1

…]

You say:

Here is my current understanding:
Certain
adj.
known by God

Dear Jochoa, you have not paid attention to the title of the thread:
How certain are we that God exists?

We are concerned with ourselves, humans, how we are certain that God exists, not with how God is certain He exists.

So, everyone, please talk from the standpoint of ourselves, not impersonally, and of course not bringing in God or other beings not humans.

KingCoil

 

[Nelka]

How certain are we that God exists?

[SIGN]100%.[/SIGN]

 

[KingCoil]

[SIGN]100%.[/SIGN]

We are now in the process of each one participating here producing his definition of what is certain, the word, or certainty, the noun, in less than 50 words.

You are making a categorical declaratory statement which readers can dismiss as purely gratuitous.

Please do some serious thinking to produce your contribution of a definition of certain, certainty.

The purpose is to arrive at a concurred on definition; for unless talkers have agreed on definitions of words in the discussion of an issue, like in the present thread, then it is a shame that we are talking past each other’s head, no different from insane folks in an asylum.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

To date, Yppop is the only one to have produced his own definition of certainty.

Originally Posted by yppop
King
Here’s my definition:
The level of certainty of the existence of something depends on probability of the existence of a possible alternative. The lower the probability of the possible alternative, the higher the level of certainty. Absolute certainty means that the something to which it refers has no alternative, 2+2=4 for example.
Yppop

I am still waiting for Yppop to resume our exchange on where is the concept found.

He said that he could not understand my question to him, so I told him what I maintain, namely, that the concept of certainty is located in our mind.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Originally Posted by yppop

Hi King;
I don’t understand what you mean by “where is the concept of the adjective certain and the noun certainty”.

Are you implying that the adjective certain is tied to the concept of subjectivity and the noun certainty is tied to objectivity?

Okay, let us think on the sentence that an existing thing is in our mind and also outside our mind in the universe outside, or not also in the universe outside independent of our mind.

You understand the above words?

Now, there was a time when no man existed, at that time there was no human mind, so there could not have been the concept of certain and certainty in the human mind, you understand that?

There was only the universe then, so was there the concept certain and certainty in the universe?

You will say that as we are talking about the material universe and since the concept is not a material thing how can it be located in a material universe?

Okay, now we are here with our minds, can we say that the concept of certain and certainty is in our mind? Do you care to notice that you have a concept of certainty which you express in 49 words, so on that consideration the concept is in your mind.

So, will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?

Now, sad to say there are humans whose minds are not so enlightened as to have acquaintance with the concept of certain and certainty: so we can say that for them in their minds there is not found the concept of certain and certainty.

The question I ask you now is and I repeat: “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

If you still don’t understand my question, then ask me, and tell me why you don’t understand my question.

In the meantime do not bring in more terms like objectivity and subjectivity, so that we will not have to work to concur on them, when we can already concur on that there in our mind is the concept of the words, certain and certainty.

Please, when you reply to this post from yours truly, start right away with your answer to my question, “will we concur that the concept of certain and certainty is in your mind and in my mind and in everyone human’s mind who does understand the concept with their mind in the words certain and certainty?”

Why is it important to determine where the concept of certainty is found, in the mind only or also outside the mind in the universe, which has existed even when humans had not yet appeared in the stage of existence.

[Continuation in next post]

KingCoil
[/QUOTE]

 

[ThinkingSapien]

He said that he could not understand my question to him, so I told him what I maintain, namely, that the concept of certainty is located in our mind.

By definition are not all concepts mental (in the mind)?

 

[KingCoil]

[Continuation]

It is important because I submit that when we give a definition of a word we must also keep in mind that we are talking about something in our mind only or also found in the universe outside our mind.

If it is only found in our mind, then we are into something that exists only in our mind.

Now, if it is also found in the universe outside our mind, then we can go forth from the concept in our mind to look for the object in the universe corresponding to the concept in our mind.

You will ask me next, so what is the importance of that?

The importance is that if we are talking only of things found or located in our mind, we could be talking of purely fictional things.

This thread is about the question: “How certain are we that God exists?”

It is not about God as a fiction in our mind, but as existing in factual reality in the universe and also beyond the universe.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

Dear Sapien, please produce your definition of the word certain or certainty in less than 50 words.

Don’t say that you already did that, just take the time and present it now in less than 50 words, then we can discuss our definitions in order to come to concurrence on what is the concept of certain, certainty.

And forgive me, don’t react to everything or some things you find in my posts, just first present your definition at the top of your next post here, and then if you still care to react sporadically to my posts, you can go ahead.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

…]

I personally like your definition,* but to rid of the “if” simply remove “again and again if we doubt it.” Your current definition of certain has redundancy which isn’t necessary. If I am certain of a piece of information after having verified its existence by sensing it, then there will never be a time after which cancels the certain experience.

Once again, thanks for the very enjoyable food for thought!

*Here is my definition of the word, certain:
"KingCoil:

#178
Certain means that a piece of information like there is a nose in our face can be verified again and again if we doubt it, by applying our senses like sight to experience its presence.

You say:Your current definition of certain has redundancy which isn’t necessary. If I am certain of a piece of information after having verified its existence by sensing it, then there will never be a time after which cancels the certain experience.

There are countless instances when after you have experienced some object or event or situation, you might doubt afterwards whether it is still the fact which you are certain of from your one experience.

For example, earlier, I gave this scenario [in big letters about parking meter which can be moved elsewhere]:

Apr 24, '14, 7:49 pm  #149

…]

Let us first work to get to concur on what is absolute certainty.

Allow me to start first, with the word absolute, it means not relative, is that all right with you?

In my next post I will suggest to you that certainty has to do with the feature in human information on the existence of an object, the feature by which we can verify again and again everytime we have doubts about the object existing.

For example, the existence of ice cream is a piece of information which piece of information has this feature by which when we have any doubts about the existence of ice cream, we can just go and get some in the nearest cold grocery, and eat it – there we have certainty, the direct kind of certainty that ice cream exists.

What do you say, will you accept my invitation to analyze what is certainty?

For myself, the word means a (I am repeating myself) feature of human information by which humans can verify the existence of something he has information about, by experiencing its existence again and again as often as he doubts that the object is existing.

Again, for example, you have the information – that means knowledge, that there is a parking meter outside your house, then you start to doubt it, so you look out the window and assure yourself that yes there is a parking meter outside.

So, what do you say, let us start with certainty as a feature in human information of an object existing, by which feature we can assure ourselves that it is in fact existing by for example looking at it again, and even touching it again, etc., by applying our external senses to it.

That is certainty of the existence of an object outside our self, which is direct certainty; there is also direct certainty of an object that is within our self, for example, the experience of discomfort in an elbow, some aching for a concrete experience, like what I feel right now with my left elbow as I type this post.

Tell you what, as you can notice that I want to get down to facts of everyday’s life in our discussion, on what is certainty and the kinds of, and the kind that is in regard to God’s existence, shall we first examine more carefully what exactly is the word certain all about?

The way I see it, it is a feature of human information on the existence of something, by which feature a human can again and again as often as he is in doubt as to the existence of that something, assure himself that it in fact exists, by looking at it again, touching it again, etc., applying to it our external senses.

That is the most fundamental of certainties.

I propose to you, Jochoa, that you get acquainted with the fact that there is a distinction between what I call a generic object or event, and a specific object or event bound by concrete circumstances of time and space, etc.

KingCoil

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Dear Sapien, please produce your definition of the word certain or certainty in less than 50 word

Sure, I will play along for now.

As used in the context of this thread:

A state of having a feeling of confidence for an idea/proposition or feeling of trustworthiness for an object or person.

Btw:threads tend to only stay on topic for a limited amount of time. At the glacial pace at which this thread is progressing I’ve got concerns it will devolve into banter before you get around to presenting either your full idea or any major component of it.

 

[jochoa]

We are concerned with ourselves, humans, how we are certain that God exists, not with how God is certain He exists.

Please consider that I am sharing how humans can be certain of God’s absolute existence. As a human coming into existence, once I know what God knows, I am certain the knowledge is absolute.

So, everyone, please talk from the standpoint of ourselves, not impersonally, and of course not bringing in God or other beings not humans.

Ok. The process of being certain of an object’s existence is accepting a definition of the object in question, followed by reasonable analysis of the being’s environment, in which alignment concludes to certainty, and misalignment concludes to uncertainty.

I definitely prefer the Wisdom of the Catholic Church: “…God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.”

I propose to you, Jochoa, that you get acquainted with the fact that there is a distinction between what I call a generic object or event, and a specific object or event bound by concrete circumstances of time and space, etc.

Thanks for sharing further thoughts, I will do my best to keep up.

BTW…thanks for all your patience with me, this is very enjoyable reflection material in my day!