How come archeologists cannot find a trace of..?

[Jerusha]

We have the same problems in our church! Worse when catholic don’t even study the CCC. I’ve met racist catholics. I’ve met Catholic who think there is a special forgiveness for someone who crusifies themselves (philipenes) and our church monks use to flog themselves to drive out their imperfections or wear hair shirts. The issue isn’t morals as much as truth. I agree with you about joe though.

Yes, we do have our own imperfections. The very specific condemnation of polygamy, concubines, and whoredoms is pleny of indication that there was something very seriously wrong with Mormonism. And it probably started with JS, although Sidney Rigdon was part of the problem, too.

 

[ReligiousQuest]

Oh---- but they do gossip. Sometimes it gets quite malicious. That is what that story is about.

Racism is still a serious problem in their church. Many take seriously the claim that skin color is an indication of one’s soul, because of the sins of the ancestors of peole of color. People must be punished because of their ancestor’s sins, in order to bring them to repentance. and Mormons are real good at doing that, without looking at their own ancestors’ sins, and learning from them. This excuses racism.

And that is another moral to that story-- about people punishing others for real, or perceived imperfections, and thereby arousing opposition and anger. They try to do “God’s work” without realizing that their own strategies are, in themselves, sinful.

The problem is that, without something like CCC, they define sin too narrowly.

However, I do enjoy my coffee, and I do not regard it a sin. I do regard it a sin when someone else condemns me for it. :coffeeread: Reading the BOM with a good cup.

That doesn’t make sense? If that’s true, how do you then explain why they teach us in Church that we will be responsible for our own sins and not Adam’s Transgression, or for other’s sins? Why is there the emphasis on personal responsibility?

Lamanites receiving darker skin because of ancestors? Then why do they teach us that their descendants weren’t cursed, but rather they have a mark on their skin left over from ancestors who received a mark for what they did? Why do non-LDS Christians point a finger, then make the claim that we’re in the position we’re in right now because of what Adam and Eve did? Why is Christians making that claim about our situation because of Adam and Eve any less messed up? Jews say that they don’t believe we’re punished because of Adam and Eve and do not need a Savior because of it. Jews say that needing a Savior & Redeemer is outrageous and not Biblical (they don’t believe the New Testament is Biblical because they believe it directly contradicts the Hebrew Scriptures, or our Old Testament).

Racism with certain individuals? So what about many KKK Clan members who claim to be Christians? LOL, I’m serious. There are going to be racist individuals everywhere you go.

 

[sambos671]

Yes, we do have our own imperfections. The very specific condemnation of polygamy, concubines, and whoredoms is pleny of indication that there was something very seriously wrong with Mormonism. And it probably started with JS, although Sidney Rigdon was part of the problem, too.

Polygamy is a problem but the Mormons I know (unless its secret) do not practice it. I don’t know about the protestutes and things. However, I do believe the issue is one of truth and the BoM does not teach Truth. JS was a scoundrel who wanted more wives and influence and came accross a great plan. I wonder if it was unintentionally similar to the start of Islam. Too many comparisons to be comfortable though.

 

[Jerusha]

Yes, early Mormonism had a problem with polygamy. Once they went to Utah, and realized that they had suffered because of polygamy, they rejected it. Or at least most of them. There were other problems that they didn’t deal with. Like Brigham Young. Now I am reading Mosiah’s preaching about bad kings. uch:

 

[RebeccaJ]

That doesn’t make sense? If that’s true, how do you then explain why they teach us in Church that we will be responsible for our own sins and not Adam’s Transgression, or for other’s sins? Why is there the emphasis on personal responsibility?

Lamanites receiving darker skin because of ancestors? Then why do they teach us that their descendants weren’t cursed, but rather they have a mark on their skin left over from ancestors who received a mark for what they did? Why do non-LDS Christians point a finger, then make the claim that we’re in the position we’re in right now because of what Adam and Eve did? Why is Christians making that claim about our situation because of Adam and Eve any less messed up? Jews say that they don’t believe we’re punished because of Adam and Eve and do not need a Savior because of it. Jews say that needing a Savior & Redeemer is outrageous and not Biblical (they don’t believe the New Testament is Biblical because they believe it directly contradicts the Hebrew Scriptures, or our Old Testament).

Racism with certain individuals? So what about many KKK Clan members who claim to be Christians? LOL, I’m serious. There are going to be racist individuals everywhere you go.

There isn’t anything like this in Catholicism. KKK, probably so.

 

[tobinatorstark]

How come archeologists cannot find a trace of one single civilization that the Mormon prophet claimed was given to him on the golden [and self destructing] tablets??

Not a single piece of pottery. Not a single dwelling place, not a single burial, not a trace - not a bit of anything that he claimed ever existed.

Care to explain that anyone?

1. I don’t believe in Mormonism
2. Why rely on archeology instead of God and the Catholic Church.
3. Putting anything ahead of God is idolatry. We have have committed it, one time or another

 

[Stephen168]

Catholics, let’s be nicer. Can we quit arguing over whether the BOM is truth or fiction, and go to the subject of what moral truths there are in it. I have been thoroughly re-reading it, and I can see many places that are critical of the way today’s Mormons “do Mormonism”. Can you find them?

I think we Catholics agree the Book of Mormon is fiction because there is no proof of the events ever happening. So if it is just a morality play, what does it teach? I knew the Mormon Church was racist until 1978 but I didn’t know it was taught in the Book of Mormon.

 

[mfbukowski]

Answering every argument with a link to FAIR. That’s pretty funny, and pathetic.

A FAIR link with hundreds of links to pages of nonsense is not an argument. Wikipedia has better information, and is more reliable.

Make the argument yourself.

I have over and over to the same questions. I just got tired of it. FAIR has the best answers out there. If you want answers, it is the place to go. If you want to debate and play games, I am not interested.

No one reads my posts anyway-- you all just ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over
And don’t read the replies. Fergetabout it.

 

[mfbukowski]

I have never attacked you personally, nor do I believe I have ever launched a personal attack on any LDS.

You are simply a mean old man, and I truly pity you in your misery and your insecurity in your faith.

 

[mfbukowski]

I was teasing you with the planet Cobal thing. You can’t take a Battlestar Galactica joke pointed at mormons can you? Sorry. The rest I would like to answer but there’s a bunch of them how do you want me to answer them? Also You seem to be in defense mode as in what the marines say the best defence is a good offence. You’re having problems substantiting the BoM claims with regard to ancient civilizations.

Sorry, I don’t watch TV much. If you are interested in answers to your questions, read FAIR. If you are not, why argue with such a lame brain? I have given you answers and you don’t even read the posts.

 

[mfbukowski]

As I have said before, the Book of Mormon is not “plain and simple”. Because it is written in such difficult language, it is very difficult to read and understand.

I am reading Mosiah. There is a section where people are distressed because the younger generation were not members of the church. The people of the church made accusations of sinful and crminal deeds by nonmembers. The church leaders took the accusations to Alma Sr., who took them to Mosiah. Later, Mosiah made a law that false accusations were against the law. Obviously, he examined the cases, and found that many of them were confabulations by people who wanted to punish people who were not church members.

Alma Jr. was a wild and reckless youth, who was in opposition to the church. Alma Sr. prayed for him, and his prayers were answered in a very impressive way.

I uncovered this story by translating it into plain English. There is something to fix in about about every sentence. No wonder they are so judgmental!! They can’t even understand their own book!!!

And, of course, is racism moral? Mosiah’s lament in Moroni 9 talks about the Nephite sin of racism, which contributed to the destruction of his people.

I doubt that those LDS that you know are as “good” as external appearances indicate.

There are other examples, but others can make contributions.

And shall we look at how many Catholics follow their faith? I think we’d see some interesting numbers. But I am glad you are reading the BOM - perhaps you will have some reasonable comments next time around instead of all the old rehashed stuff you read everywhere else.

It would be nice to see one person here who actually thinks independently and does not rely on the usual anti-mormon sites. That is why I am responding with the standard Mormon sites-- you all respond with your standard site arguments, so then will I. And this forum has a slew of really silly aruments on it. They got someone who doesn’t even know my church to write them. Dang. I could write some really good anti Mormon stuff! But you don’t even know where to look for stuff that I can’t answer.

 

[mfbukowski]

Racism is still a serious problem in their church. Many take seriously the claim that skin color is an indication of one’s soul, because of the sins of the ancestors of peole of color. People must be punished because of their ancestor’s sins, in order to bring them to repentance. and Mormons are real good at doing that, without looking at their own ancestors’ sins, and learning from them. This excuses racism.

Not so.

blacklds.org/

There is no question that we had racist policies in the past but there is no racism that I see in the church at all today. That was wrong and it continues to be wrong with America in general. The new president’s election has helped- no question.

My son went on a mission in Mississippi and expected racism to be an issue, but he found that our churches were virtually the only ones that were not de facto segregated even today. It is rare for Blacks and Whites to worship together in the South, as I understand it, but not in our church.

The church is growing like crazy in Africa right now.

 

[mfbukowski]

This is all a waste. I’m gone.

 

[ricko]

Not so.

blacklds.org/

There is no question that we had racist policies in the past but there is no racism that I see in the church at all today. That was wrong and it continues to be wrong with America in general. The new president’s election has helped- no question.

My son went on a mission in Mississippi and expected racism to be an issue, but he found that our churches were virtually the only ones that were not de facto segregated even today. It is rare for Blacks and Whites to worship together in the South, as I understand it, but not in our church.

The church is growing like crazy in Africa right now.

I can’t speak for Mississippi but in Louisiana which used to have more slaves than any Southern state, ALL of the churches are opened to people of any race. You do have some black churches that are just that, all black. It’s their choice as our doors are always opened. I would imagine it is like that in Mississippi. The blacks choose to go to an all black church.

 

[PaulDupre]

They don’t drink coffee. They don’t gossip. These are indicators of morals.

What about not drinking coffee is moral? Coffee is morality-neutral.

And if you think Mormons don’t gossip, you have obviously never been a member of a Mormon ward. They are the most vicious gossips on the planet.

 

[Stephen168]

They are moral. The husband doesn’t cheat on his wife. They don’t swear, they don’t smoke. They don’t break the law.

I’ve known two Mormon husbands that cheated on their wives. I didn’t know smoking was immoral.

 

[Jerusha]

Smoking is a minor sin that I participate in regularly.

 

[sambos671]

Sorry, I don’t watch TV much. If you are interested in answers to your questions, read FAIR. If you are not, why argue with such a lame brain? I have given you answers and you don’t even read the posts.

What is FAIR? I’ll read it. And can I then ask you questions that arise from my reading? Direct me to FAIR and I’ll see what I can do. But you may not like the fact I still may not agree with it. As far as lame brain, You may be right though I have a graduate education, travel the world speak English, French, Kiswhahili, some modern Hebrew and have a working knowledge of Latin. Though what I have in education I may be lacking in wisdom. Though your point is taken I find that when you assume as the saying goes you make an “(insert antique name for donkey) of you (u) and me” So I generally find name calling isn’t effective.

 

[sambos671]

What about not drinking coffee is moral? Coffee is morality-neutral.

And if you think Mormons don’t gossip, you have obviously never been a member of a Mormon ward. They are the most vicious gossips on the planet.

It’s a matter of discipline. If you can discipline your self in non - moral issues then certainly you can handel moral ones. I find the most immoral people are lacking in self discipline. Thats just a personal observation though.

 

[mfbukowski]

What is FAIR? I’ll read it. And can I then ask you questions that arise from my reading? Direct me to FAIR and I’ll see what I can do. But you may not like the fact I still may not agree with it. As far as lame brain, You may be right though I have a graduate education, travel the world speak English, French, Kiswhahili, some modern Hebrew and have a working knowledge of Latin. Though what I have in education I may be lacking in wisdom. Though your point is taken I find that when you assume as the saying goes you make an “(insert antique name for donkey) of you (u) and me” So I generally find name calling isn’t effective.

Re-read the post. I was refering to myself as a lamebrain. I have posted many links to FAIR on this thread. It is a Mormon apologetics group that answers all these and includes professional scholars. I would never name call like that. I hope. Well I guess I have in the past, but there’s no excuse for it.

Originally Posted by mfbukowski
Sorry, I don’t watch TV much. If you are interested in answers to your questions, read FAIR. If you are not, why argue with such a lame brain? I have given you answers and you don’t even read the posts.

I will re-write it to make it clearer: “Sorry, I don’t watch TV much. If you are interested in answers to your questions, read FAIR. If you are not interested in answers to your questions, why are you arguing and wasting time on an ignorant lamebrain such as myself? Either you want answers, or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing with a stupid person (me). I have given you answers, including links to FAIR, but you don’t even read the posts.”

That is what I meant.

And the fact that you don’t know about the links indicates that I am right that you don’t read the posts. I cited that link about 5 or 6 times earlier in the thread, over and over.