How come so many catholics can't follow the Law of the Church.

[expectthebest]

Actually, the concept of invincible ignorance is a church matter. Take, for example, the Sioux nation in pre-Columbian America. The Gospel had not reached them. It is thought that God’s grace is so expansive, that a Sioux member who lived uprightly and did what was right in the eyes of God might also receive justification. This soul had no possibility of knowing about Christ, because the Christians had not yet arrived on the continent. This was ignorance of Christ that could not have been overcome. It seems odd that there would have been no possibility of salvation and that all were doomed to hell.

Once taught the Gospel of Christ, salvation was a matter of accepting or rejecting the Gospel. The opposing position is that the intellectual elite, such as Dawkins and Hitchens, have heard the Gospel, and soundly rejected it. However, they are not justified before God, since they have rejected His offer of salvation. Neither are they excused because they have rationalized the need for salvation away in their own minds. You follow?

The Sioux could not have known of Christ. The intellectuals do know of him, but reject Him. That was my point, although perhaps clumsily made.

Yes. I didn’t misunderstand. I’m saying that it is scary to know that the more educated we are in our Faith, the harder it may be to get to heaven.

 

[po18guy]

Yes. I didn’t misunderstand. I’m saying that it is scary to know that the more educated we are in our Faith, the harder it may be to get to heaven.

Christ never said the journey would be easy. He promised that He would be with us until the end of the age. Denying yourself, taking up your cross, and then following Christ is indeed a daunting task. But, what’s the alternative? Now that’s scary!

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Aaron409]

Christ never said the journey would be easy. He promised that He would be with us until the end of the age. Denying yourself, taking up your cross, and then following Christ is indeed a daunting task. But, what’s the alternative? Now that’s scary!

Christ’s peace be with you.

love that paragraph

 

[Lilyflower]

I’ve asked myself the same question. Wouldn’t it be easier for the ignorant person to get into heaven then the educated person? If so, why wouldn’t we try to be as ignorant as possible since heaven is the ultimate goal? And if one argues there is a difference between ignorance and willful ignorance, where is the cut off? For those Catholics who don’t study their Faith but just try to do what they’ve been taught? For those in other Christian denominations? For those not having any knowlege of Christianity?

I know God wants us to know our Faith but why should knowing your Faith place in in greater jeopardy? This just doesn’t make sense.

Our human intelligence is a gift from God. We are expected to use it. I do not believe for one minute that we would be penalised for our efforts [to learn about the faith].

Arguably someone like Sixtus who had a real tangible encounter with the Holy Spirit which copied those of some of the Prophets, no doubt great things will be expected from him. But I believe we are only ever asked to ‘do our best!’

An old school friend of mine lived all his life without the CC and in his last two hours on this earth received the Last Rites. He thus did not have time to sin again and therefore died a Saint. Isn’t that wonderful?

Anyone of any denomination who does what they believe God wants from them, is doing the Will of God. That is all any of us are asked.

I believe that ultimately we will be judged only by how much we loved and counting against us will be all those times when we could have loved but for whatever reason chose not to!

 

[expectthebest]

Our human intelligence is a gift from God. We are expected to use it. I do not believe for one minute that we would be penalised for our efforts [to learn about the faith].

Arguably someone like Sixtus who had a real tangible encounter with the Holy Spirit which copied those of some of the Prophets, no doubt great things will be expected from him. But I believe we are only ever asked to ‘do our best!’

An old school friend of mine lived all his life without the CC and in his last two hours on this earth received the Last Rites. He thus did not have time to sin again and therefore died a Saint. Isn’t that wonderful?

Anyone of any denomination who does what they believe God wants from them, is doing the Will of God. That is all any of us are asked.

I believe that ultimately we will be judged only by how much we loved and counting against us will be all those times when we could have loved but for whatever reason chose not to!

Sure, it’s easy to say as long as we are doing our best. But how do we know we are doing our best? How far doesn one take this? One hour of study per night? Two, three, five? See my point? How do we know that we are knowlegable enough? The more we know, the more we know what is right and wrong. Therfore, we will have more opportuntiy to do something wrong not out of ignorance then someone who doesn’t take the study of Faith quite as seriously. Will that person who doesn’t study as much be punished for that?

As for your friend, this is a wonderful story. But, I can square in my mind why some would get this benefit while others do not. Is it just luck? Is it part of God’s plan that some receive more mercy than others? Doesn’t seem just.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sure, it’s easy to say as long as we are doing our best. But how do we know we are doing our best? How far doesn one take this? One hour of study per night? Two, three, five? See my point? How do we know that we are knowlegable enough? The more we know, the more we know what is right and wrong. Therfore, we will have more opportuntiy to do something wrong not out of ignorance then someone who doesn’t take the study of Faith quite as seriously. Will that person who doesn’t study as much be punished for that?

As for your friend, this is a wonderful story. But, I can square in my mind why some would get this benefit while others do not. Is it just luck? Is it part of God’s plan that some receive more mercy than others? Doesn’t seem just.

ExpectTheBest, maybe some people need more mercy. Some of this is up to us. The person who refuses to turn away from sin, and does not seek God’s mercy, may not receive as much mercy as someone who makes more effort. Those that never have an opportunity to learn about God of course cannot be punished for that.

I submit that rather than focus on any disparities that may appear to exist, it is more productive to focus on the benefits of God’s mercy and be grateful for it.

 

[expectthebest]

ExpectTheBest, maybe some people need more mercy. Some of this is up to us. The person who refuses to turn away from sin, and does not seek God’s mercy, may not receive as much mercy as someone who makes more effort. Those that never have an opportunity to learn about God of course cannot be punished for that.

I submit that rather than focus on any disparities that may appear to exist, it is more productive to focus on the benefits of God’s mercy and be grateful for it.

I agree that we all must focus on our own salvation. But, how and why some are saved and some are not seems to me a valuable understanding.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I agree that we all must focus on our own salvation. But, how and why some are saved and some are not seems to me a valuable understanding.

Who is it that are not saved? Those that reject God? They have made their choice.

Those that have never heard of God still have a choice to make when they have learned the Truth. Before the Truth is known, an informed choice cannot be made. Salvation is not withheld on that basis.

 

[expectthebest]

Who is it that are not saved? Those that reject God? They have made their choice.

Those that have never heard of God still have a choice to make when they have learned the Truth. Before the Truth is known, an informed choice cannot be made. Salvation is not withheld on that basis.

I understand that. What I don’t understand is why some people are given a second chance, even a death bed chance while others are not. Both rejected God. One was given a chance while another wasn’t. Is there a Church teaching on this that I’m unaware of?

 

[MelanieAnne]

I understand that. What I don’t understand is why some people are given a second chance, even a death bed chance while others are not. Both rejected God. One was given a chance while another wasn’t. Is there a Church teaching on this that I’m unaware of?

I don’t know what you mean by some having a 2nd chance while others do not have the same opportunity. Everyone who has the TRUTH provided to them has a chance to accept or reject. They always have the opportunity to accept, but they don’t have to.

People who never have the TRUTH provided to them obviously have to receive it at some point, and then be given the same opportunity to accept or reject.

One of the things that I like about Catholicism, and reject about Protestant notions with their roots in Calvinism, is this idea that if a person doesn’t believe EXACTLY this ONE WAY, they are going to hell. Our Church is one of inclusion, not exclusion.

 

[chris_molter]

I understand that. What I don’t understand is why some people are given a second chance, even a death bed chance while others are not. Both rejected God. One was given a chance while another wasn’t. Is there a Church teaching on this that I’m unaware of?

Trust God to provide however many chances a person needs to accept or reject God with finality. For some folks, it’s one time, for others it may take 1000. God knows how many chances it will take and provides them and the Grace to accept.

At that point, we can cooperate or not.

 

[expectthebest]

Trust God to provide however many chances a person needs to accept or reject God with finality. For some folks, it’s one time, for others it may take 1000. God knows how many chances it will take and provides them and the Grace to accept.

At that point, we can cooperate or not.

Is that Church teaching? That God will give you as many chances as it takes for you to take your decision in finallity?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Is that Church teaching? That God will give you as many chances as it takes for you to take your decision in finallity?

ExpectTheBest, I can’t help wondering, are you Expecting the Best?

I don’t have my Catechism handy and there are those far more nimble than I on this subject but I believe God will put opportunities in your path as often as possible. But in the end, it is still up to you to accept or reject.

These things don’t come with neon signs or trumpet fanfares, but they are there if you are open to them. I don’t see that as somehow unfair to anyone. From God’s perspective He just wants all of us with Him and is doing His part to make that happen. That’s a good thing.

 

[chris_molter]

Is that Church teaching? That God will give you as many chances as it takes for you to take your decision in finallity?

Nope, but it IS Church teaching that we receive sufficient Grace to achieve salvation. Add time to that mix. There you have it.

Church teaching doesn’t talk about it in terms of “chances” (AFAIK) so you’re not going to find a document that goes one way or another.

But the idea flows from what the Church teaches on Grace and certainly doesn’t contradict it.