How common is the Latin Mass in the US?

[R_H_Benson]

As noted above from their website, they average 11 ordinations per year.

You have to start somewhere. They only have one seminary in North America and one in Europe.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Summorum Pontificum was released in September of 2007. That makes it more than 8 years ago, and even if we give the matter 3 years to get up and somewhat available, that still leaves 5 years of enough exposure that using the term “secret” really doesn’t seem to apply. Certainly, in the 8 years, it has been in and out of the Catholic press 9as well as occasionally in the secular press) sufficient to generate interest, if interest was/is to be generated.

One of the significant aspects of SP is that a priest cannot be required to say the EF. And while there certainly have been training programs around the U.S. to provide for priests who have not been taught the rubrics, there simply do not appear to be that many priests who desire to say the EF.

There is also the issue that SP requires that there be a stable number requesting the EF, and when I hear someone complaining that there is none available in their area, I simply boot back to the issue - it needs to be more than one or two, or ten or fifteen, to get anything started. It is by no means an impossible task, but some people seem to want it done for them, or are unwilling to invest the time and energy to bring it about.

Pope Benedict, in his accompanying letter said that he did not foresee the EF becoming widely popular, and in that he seems to have been very prescient.

In years past I worked in RCIA, and I would always take the group into Portland to attend an EF Mass all in Latin, at a parish which had a crack schola. his was always after Easter, and with every group, I had one or two who didn’t like it, several who didn’t say much, and several who thought it was fantastic.

Granted that it was about a half hour’s drive, I have not found a one who ever went back, in spite of how much they said they liked it. And to me, that speaks volumes.

There seems to be a perception that there is a large number of people who desire the EF; after 8 years, the evidence appears to be to the contrary. That is in no way any refelction upon those who prefer the EF; nor is it in any way a reflection on those who prefer the OF. It is simply the facts.

It would be nice to project that it should be widely available all over the US; but people are simply not clamoring for it. My information does not show what the average attendance is at any of the parishes which have the EF, but just looking through the list shows that in any number of places, the Mass is only offered some time during the week, rather than on Sunday, and often not every week. And that translates to lack of interest to the other people who are part of that parish. And that again says that there simply is not that much interest.

I understand that you have a very high appreciation of the EF and believe that if others were exposed to it, they too would want the EF weekly. The evidence, after more than 8 years, is that Pope Benedict was right; it would be a small number overall who would want and support the EF.

Do you think it is fair to attribute the lack of interest partially to a lack of understanding of the TLM? When I said that it is a “secret” I meant that in more ways than its limited availability. Very little initiative has been shown by the vast majority of bishops to foster the growth of the TLM on the diocesan level. Besides the FSSP, ICRSS, etc., no where have I ever seen workshops or informational sessions offered that might help people delve into the somewhat overwhelming and initially confusing TLM. The laity - especially those who grew up in the post-conciliar era - cannot be expected to seek out the TLM on their own. They don’t know what it is besides for a vague notion. The Church is older than one generation and the TLM is an integral part of our liturgical heritage. Bishops should be ensuring that the seminaries are teaching priests how to say the TLM. It falls on the shoulders of our shepherds - not on the laity - to fairly present and foster both forms of Mass in the Roman Rite.

 

[ProVobis]

Deacon, thanks for the encouragement. You seem to take quite an interest in the forma extraordinaria. I hope you will be asked (if you haven’t already been) to deacon a Solemn High Mass sometime in the future. I will pray for you.

 

[Tim_D]

According to their website, 421, of which 262 are priests, and of those, 243 are incardinated. Their website is less than clear, as just above that, it notes a total of 421 and says 257 incardinated; and below that, 243.

To put that in perspective, in 2015 in the US, there were 515 men ordained a priest; or in one year, more than the apparent total of all FFSP priests.

according to the FFSP website, they average 11 ordinations per year, with a high of 17 in 2004, and the second highest in 2015 of 15.

So, no, the FFSP might have seminaries which are close to SRO, but they do not produce prodigious numbers each year. It would appear that some might be dropping out along the way - not unusual for any seminary.

Thank you for the figures and thank you for your excellent posts. My “home” Sunday parish has had the TLM since 1983 or so. The numbers grow and they also recede. The parish, however, is known for being more “traditional” in the sense that the Church is in the old style with altar rails, something that I haven’t seen at any other church in town that I’ve attended and the liturgies are far from the “happy/clappy” style that you see in so many churches.

My “other” Church that I sometimes attend is in the much more “modern” style but it is a strangely very “traditional/conservative” Church, an odd occurrence when a parish is one of the largest in the diocese. It seems to me that the argument of finding reverence in the liturgy is best settled by finding it in oneself, not the form of the Mass. The Mass is the Mass, is the Mass. We should all be grateful that we have such access to it.

 

[rfournier103]

Question: How common is the Latin Mass in the US?

Answer: Not nearly common enough.

 

[Tim_D]

Very little initiative has been shown by the vast majority of bishops to foster the growth of the TLM on the diocesan level.

Why should they? It isn’t the Ordinary Form of the Church; it is extraordinary. I’m sure that bishops have a tough enough time trying to manage their dioceses while administering the sacraments in the current form. It seems strange to think that they should invest time and resources (i.e. money) in something that isn’t widely called for and is extraordinary to the current form.

 

[Tim_D]

Question: How common is the Latin Mass in the US?

Answer: Not nearly common enough.

Apparently, it is common enough to those who desire it. When the percentages are in the lower single digits, then one can’t expect an entire diocese to restructure current operations for the desires of a few.

 

[rben20]

It’s not common but it has certainly grown and my hope is that it continues to spread. It won’t happen overnight! The EF lacks the resources that OF has starting most importantly with priests who understand Latin and know the rubrics of the 1962 Mass. We have a shortage of priests in the Catholic Church so it affects both forms of the Mass but even more so the EF. That is why we have groups like the FSSP and ICRSS who are helping fulfill this need in the church (full with seminarians thankfully). The religious communities like the Benedictine Monks of Clear Creek are also choosing to have the traditional Mass and recite the traditional monastic office. It will take time but it’s encouraging to see its growth in all parts of church life.

 

[ProVobis]

The Mass is the Mass, is the Mass.

This is true, but according to the Baltimore Catechism, Masses do differ by a degree of solemnity. (However, this is not to suggest one is better than another in any way). I was always honored to be asked to serve at a Solemn High Mass and when I extended the same wish to the deacon, I meant it in the most complimentary and respectful way. That’s for the record.

 

[otjm]

You have to start somewhere. They only have one seminary in North America and one in Europe.

My comment was not to the contrary; and I express nothing but admiration for them.

My comment was directed to the enthusiasm of other comments, such as how full their seminaries are; I am sure they are full, but if they are averaging 11 ordinations per year since 2004, a bit of perspective is appropriate for those who may be under the impression that there are far, far more ordinations per year.

I am all for enthusiasm. I am also all for perspective.

 

[ProVobis]

I am all for enthusiasm. I am also all for perspective.

I take it you’re not a Cubs fan?

Seriously, I don’t think deep in anyone’s heart they honestly believe (outside of a major paradigm shift) the EF will ever be restored to even one Mass per Sunday per parish given the current trends.

But if you want to continue to dwell on losing efforts, that can’t be all that positive for the EF (or its very survival) either.

 

[otjm]

Do you think it is fair to attribute the lack of interest partially to a lack of understanding of the TLM?

No, I don’t, and for several reasons. 1) There was an immediate acceptance Of the vernacular, and it is far stronger than most proponents of the EF are willing to recognize. They often refer to it in terms of “disdain” or “hate” or other similar words; but the fact is that people don’t flock to OF Masses in Spanish, or Vietnamese unless those are native or second languages. Acceptance of the changes in rubrics may have been slower (and not particularly aided by priests who saw fit to modify them); but the charges of large numbers of people leaving the Church with the introduction of the OF are simply unadulterated urban myths. Factually there is no evidence whatsoever of any significant loss immediately following; there has been a gradual erosion; but there has been a parallel erosion of attendance within the mainline Protestant churches, and not because of the OF. 2) Most people pre-OF did not understand the rubrics (as in, why do they do it that way), and most don’t understand the why of the rubrics of the OF either; but those with whom I have talked who have been to an EF and don’t continue to go to them, speak of the marked difference with the priest facing liturgical East, and they don’t like that. Likewise, those who have attended the OF in Latin and using liturgical East.

When I said that it is a “secret” I meant that in more ways than its limited availability. Very little initiative has been shown by the vast majority of bishops to foster the growth of the TLM on the diocesan level. Besides the FSSP, ICRSS, etc., no where have I ever seen workshops or informational sessions offered that might help people delve into the somewhat overwhelming and initially confusing TLM. The laity - especially those who grew up in the post-conciliar era - cannot be expected to seek out the TLM on their own. They don’t know what it is besides for a vague notion. The Church is older than one generation and the TLM is an integral part of our liturgical heritage. Bishops should be ensuring that the seminaries are teaching priests how to say the TLM. It falls on the shoulders of our shepherds - not on the laity - to fairly present and foster both forms of Mass in the Roman Rite.

Putting on a workshop is costly both in time and money; and there is little point in giving one if attendance is going to be minimal. There just flat out is little or no interest.

The bishops are not going to demand that their priests learn the EF: just as they are not going to demand that their priests say the EF; and that comes from both SP and common sense. We are short of priests in the US and in Europe (although other areas of the world have a surplus) as it is, and the very bottom line is that there is simply little interest. It has been over 8 years since the EF was made widely available, and the number of parishes which offer the EF, even once a month regularly, are less than 3%. And while I have no doubt that there are some parishes which may have better attendance, I have yet to see anyone reporting much more than 100 to 150 in regular attendance where it is offered. Which is another way of saying, it is right there within less than 5 miles of your regular parish (if not offered in your regular parish) and few attend. It is not like that Mass is kept under a basket…

 

[ProVobis]

It has been over 8 years since the EF was made widely available

And it took a lot less time to dismantle it back in the 60’s. You read those Latin Mass articles didn’t you, that showed that this was done before a single word and calendar was added via the New Mass?

Of course it takes much more time to restore something than to wreck it. Not to mention frustration.

 

[Kielbasi]

And it took a lot less time to dismantle it back in the 60’s. You read those Latin Mass articles didn’t you, that showed that this was done before a single word and calendar was added via the New Mass?

Of course it takes much more time to restore something than to wreck it. Not to mention frustration.

Catholics were generally pleased to see the vernacular masses when they were introduced back in the day, from my recollection.

As far as reintroducing Latin mass on a much greater scale, I just don’t see it.

Very few priests are fluent in Latin in the current day, and that’s only part of it. The rubrics and rules for saying Latin mass according to the old rite are pretty involved. It isn’t something that a man can learn in a 3 hours seminar at a local seminary.

 

[otjm]

And it took a lot less time to dismantle it back in the 60’s. You read those Latin Mass articles didn’t you, that showed that this was done before a single word and calendar was added via the New Mass?

Of course it takes much more time to restore something than to wreck it. Not to mention frustration.

I am not an apologist for how the OF was introduced, so if you are trying to paste that one on me, you have the wrong individual.

And never in my life have I used the word “wreck” to describe the transition from the EF to the OF - and pardon me if I misunderstand your use of the word but it comes across as a commentary on the OF. Otherwise, I cannot figure out what was “wrecked”.

On the other hand, I have long, long held that many, if not most of those who prefer the EF, would be outright scandalized if they were to observe the Mass as it existed in, oh, say 60 A.D.

Which leads me to consider that form is more important than function to some.

I also periodically attend Maronite Divine Liturgy and the Ruthenian Rite Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Catholics were generally pleased to see the vernacular masses

I’ll be honest with you. I was among those people. I even dropped Latin much to the dismay of my Latin teacher in high school. But then I realized it didn’t make it any easier to understand, especially when they were throwing different things at us to the point of almost failing senior theology class. I stopped going to church altogether, until a few years later a fiance had me going again. (I dumped her later, but that’s neither here or there.) But bottom line is that I went, not because I wanted to but I felt I had to. Big difference, and that’s not reflected in attendance figures either.

 

[ProVobis]

It isn’t something that a man can learn in a 3 hours seminar at a local seminary.

Neither is the GIRM, for that matter. So many options. So many languages. Each parish has its own customs and practices. Just sayin…

 

[otjm]

Neither is the GIRM, for that matter. So many options. So many languages. Each parish has its own customs and practices. Just sayin…

Well, actually, no. The options are not all that great, and some are specific to certain circumstances which may not occur on anything or a regular basis (such as the bishop coming to say Mass). The GIRM for the OF is certainly no more difficult to learn than the rubrics for the EF - just sayin’…

As to languages, English is still the most prevalent in the US; Spanish being second, and the rubrics don’t change by the language.

And as to parishes having customs and practices, most priests don’t “parish hop” so that in pretty much a non-issue.

Understanding how to pastor a parish - because each individual has their own issues, strengths, faults, and personality, is a far greater challenge than how to say Mass. Someone going through a divorce has different issues than someone going through a family death, although both are in crisis.

And understanding how to deal with the various subsets within a community and still keep them all moving forward is far, far more difficult than how to say Mass. There are not too many Solomon’s around any more…

 

[ProVobis]

As to languages, English is still the most prevalent in the US; Spanish being second, and the rubrics don’t change by the language.

Not that simple. It’s an entirely different culture in Spanish. In my parish, there may or may not be baptisms which cut into a considerable portion of the Mass. And, in Chicago, many of the priests are expected to speak more than just these two languages. Polish communities draw big crowds, for example. I can’t even get into those.

But even if you manage to get through the GIRM (and I understand each country’s unique), there have been many other church documents since 1962 to keep you busy. The priests on board CAF seem to quote from them all the time.

You may not agree but the 1962 Missal is a piece of cake when compared to all the variations of the vernacular. And what’s 600 some unique Latin words? One doesn’t need to be a Latin scholar to say the EF. Even one’s pronunciations need not be perfect since most of the Mass is said silently, allowing plenty of time for contemplative prayer by the congregation.

I say if the EF is supported financially, it will exist. If not, then it will die. But isn’t that what you’re basically saying over and over?

And I’m done with this thread.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Question: How common is the Latin Mass in the US?

Most major cities will have roughly 1-2 parishes that will hold these Latin Masses. Those that attend tend to be strong adherents, and oftentimes drive a considerable distance to attend.

Part of the challenge with wider acceptance of the Latin Mass is a shortage of priests. Most parishioners born after Vatican II are completely unfamiliar.

You also have challenges with the physical church layout itself, as well as challenges with vestments and related church accessories. Modern Catholic churches are not typically designed for a Latin Mass, complete with an altar rail, etc.

Few parishioners would be familiar with Latin, let alone the old liturgy or Gregorian Chant.

Even with all of these obstacles, the Latin Mass is still very popular, and growing organically throughout the country. Many of the Latin Mass parishes have young families, many with several young children who will grow up with the Latin Mass. Over the next generation, as they young children mature into adults, the Latin Mass will continue to gain in popularity.

As someone else mentioned, the FSSP seminaries are growing rapidly, and there is apparently a long waiting list for would-be priests to attend their seminaries.

Re-educating unfamiliar Catholics on the Latin Mass will take time.

The biggest obstacle to the growth of the Latin Mass is that new attendees are both unfamiliar with Latin, but also unfamiliar with the structure of the liturgy. As a result, they sometimes feel like a fish out of water. It takes sometimes a year or more to finally get the pattern of the liturgy, and a few years to start to understand the Latin to any degree. This takes time, patience, and commitment.

Some catch the Latin Mass bug, and are die-hard adherents for life. To others, it just doesn’t resonate for some reason.