How could a human individual not be a human person?

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Human life is sacred.

Why?

Because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God that’s why.
 
Yet the Church staunchly declines to confirm that view and the mainstream traditional view was in fact that conception was no more a “creative action of God” than that of an animal’s conception.
 
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BlackFriar . . .
Yet the Church staunchly declines to confirm that view and the mainstream traditional view was in fact that conception was no more a “creative action of God” than that of an animal’s conception.
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No BlackFriar. This is different than a mere animal’s conception.

I already pointed out that the bodily parts are from the mother and father. And this human is “living”. But the soul is “immediately” created by God.

This results in a special relationship with God this new human conception has. A special relationship that mere animals do not have. And it is from its beginning or “immediately” as I have pointed out the CCC as saying.
 
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Cathoholic said:
I already pointed out that the bodily parts are from the mother and father. And this human is “living”. But the soul is “immediately” created by God.
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And as I have pointed out for you numerous times you still do not understand that CCC sentence.
For if it were true that the spiritual soul was immediately created at conception this topic question would be settled.
Yet the Magisterium has explicitly denied settling the question re at which time God immediately creates a spiritual soul for the embryo…

“The spiritual soul is Immediately created by God” does NOT mean immediately done at conception".
You really have no idea what this statement is talking about.
And like Ender you do not seem to understand the difference between a human material soul and a human spiritual soul.
 
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BlackFriar . . .
And as I have pointed out for you numerous times you still do not understand that CCC sentence.
For if it were true then the question would be settled.
Yet the Magisterium has explicitly denied settling the question.
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“The spiritual soul is Immediately created by God” does NOT mean immediately done at conception". You really have no idea what this statement is talking about. And like Ender you do not seem to understand the difference between a human material soul and a human spiritual soul.
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Thanks for the quick response. I’ll try to get back here on this in the next day or two.
 
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I have been giving you such advice for weeks.
A pity you didn’t research the issue back then.

The CCC statement is about countering Traducianism not Delayed Hominisation.
 
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There is no answer. He wanted us all to contemplate the question and reach the conclusion that the two are actually one and the same. By not providing the answer, he allowed us to learn of our own accord as opposed to being told what the answer is (which would have bypassed our brains, so we wouldn’t necessarily have even cared).

Blessings.
 
BlackFriar. What do you think God creates “immediately” right from the get-go, right from the beginning with new human life?
 
Even after 2 weeks you still don’t get it…
I’ll leave others to explain your myopia.

As I say, you need to understand Traducianism.
 
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Traducianism (tradux, a shoot or sprout, and more specifically a vine branch made to take root so as to propagate the vine), in general the doctrine that, in the process of generation, the human spiritual soul is transmitted to the offspring by the parents. . . .
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15014a.htm

.

But I have never said that a human being gets his (or her) soul from his parents.

I’ve explicitly pointed out here the opposite.

I have quoted CCC 366 which teaches against Traducianism.
CCC 366a The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents . . . .
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I have never said here that the soul is created by the parents (Traducianism).

So I guess my question to you remains . . . .

What do you think God creates “immediately” right from the get-go, right from the beginning with new human life?
 
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Oh dear.
The usual 5 min “research”…and “reflection”.
Come back in a week or so after some serious effort to understand my point rather than shoring up your simplistic understanding of the CCC re “immediately created”.
 
BlackFriar said:
What is so offensive in saying a human soul of a lower order (a material human soul) is indeed present.
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It seems to fragment or construct piecemeal a soul that is spiritual. A human material soul …I suppose hominids before the rational soul came on scene would have been produced materially. I think that the spiritual soul is like transubstantiation. It doesn’t change the substance of the bread by a process of local movement but instantly. A material soul is like the theory consubstantiation. Changes the bread by a process of local movement. So, delayed hominisation proposes a kind of process of local movement as material organizes and able to reduce the soul’s potency in matter until a spiritual soul …grafted on…takes over all operations? the human lower faculties materially produced become spiritual with the just created spiritual soul? Or do they remain material in nature?
 
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OK. Let’s prescind from the time frame for a moment BlackFriar.

What do you think it is that God creates with a human life? (Irrespective of the time frame)
 
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Benadam said:
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BlackFriar:
What is so offensive in saying a human soul of a lower order (a material human soul) is indeed present.
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It seems to fragment or construct piecemeal a soul that is spiritual. A human material soul …I suppose hominids before the rational soul came on scene would have been produced materially. I think that the spiritual soul is like transubstantiation. It doesn’t change the substance of the bread by a process of local movement but instantly. A material soul is like the theory consubstantiation. Changes the bread by a process of local movement. So, delayed hominisation proposes a kind of process of local movement as material organizes and able to reduce the soul’s potency in matter until a spiritual soul …grafted on…takes over all operations? the human lower faculties materially produced become spiritual with the just created spiritual soul? Or do they remain material in nature?
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Well you just described fairly accurately what the system of delayed hominisation is about - accepted as mainstream by the Church for 700 years. So it cannot be offensive for these reasons.
The process is not called “piecemeal” but “successive ensoulment.”
Nor is it about constructing a spiritual soul. That is the very last ensoulment.
The last ensoulment is not gradual but an immediate and complete change of substance.
The prior ensoulments are material souls not spiritual souls.

You are quite right about the difference between material and spiritual souls.
Material souls arise from the changes of matter alone without the need for direct acts from God.
However material processes can prepare a body for infusion with a spiritual soul but it cannot create a spiritual soul.

This is created by God not through any slow process either material (from the body) or spiritual (from the soul of a parent). As you say, like Transubstantiation, it is immediate at the time of infusion. The timing of this infusion has been a major topic in this thread.
 
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BlackFriar said:
However material processes can prepare a body for infusion with a spiritual soul but it cannot create a spiritual soul.
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This is the moment that confuses me. A material soul is present in the body it’s prepared for a spiritual soul… What happens to it when the spiritual soul is infused? This apparent switch or assumption? Anyway, this is what I haven’t been able to reason out.
 
You are quite right about the difference between material and spiritual souls.
Material souls arise from the changes of matter alone without the need for direct acts from God.
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I think this is a great point BlackFriar.
 
I am simply repeating the standard teaching re DH.
Its basic Aristotelian hylomorphic theory re substances/forms.

That is, like transubstantiation, the process is not properly called “change” (gradual) but “becoming” (immediate). That is the creation of the new substance (with the spiritual soul) and the destruction of the old substance (the animal soul) are one and the same thing…at least the mainstream view (Aquinas).

Duns Scotus has a slightly different view (where the hominoid form/soul is not so much destroyed as modified). but lets not complicate matters!

Regardless, at that moment a hominoid (which cannot think as humans can) is suddenly capable of truly human thought…though with a lot more brain development needed for it to do so significantly. Also, the new spiritual soul is responsible for the further modification of the body from this point forward in a way the hominoid soul could never do.
 
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BlackFriar said:
I am simply repeating the standard teaching re DH.

Its basic Aristotelian hylomorphic theory re substances/forms.
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And really, you’re pretty good at it. Hylomorphic theory. Duns Scotus. New material that pertains to my personal philosophic learning. :slightly_smiling_face:Thank you BlackFriar!
 
Seven full time years of obscure, dry Catholic philosophical and theological academia has to be good for something 😆. I am still a student.

PS, added a bit more to the above post while you posted.
 
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BlackFriar said:
Regardless, at that moment a hominoid (which cannot think as humans can) is suddenly capable of truly human thought…though with a lot more brain development needed for it to do so significantly. Also, the new spiritual soul is responsible for the further modification of the body from this point forward in a way the hominoid soul could never do.
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That is very interesting archeology. I might be imagining things but it seems like modern science has reached a place of discovery that seems to involve matters of faith. Like the Shroud of Turin.

God made man out of the clay of the earth. Like early hominids are the material soul preparing a body for the spiritual human. Delayed hominisation.
 
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