How could a human individual not be a human person?

[Blue_Horizon]

I suppose the issue is “what is it proper/specific to do as a human being” (that other life-forms do not do) that is the issue.

The answer for the last 1000 years has been to possess an intellectual soul operating through a body.
Unfortunately human cells and rat-ears, gametes and zygotes don’t evidence that.
“One day it will” (re the zygote) never seemed to cut it for the ancients.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I am a moral pragmatist, all life from the moment of conception should be treated as fully human.
Who knows when a fully human soul vivifies the embryo - does it matter?

And to go with the zygote. If we were to know the future of a zygote and know they would not be twins, but only one fetus, would they be a full human person at that point?

The only way we can know that the zygote is an individual is after the “streak” stage when both totipotent and pluripotent cells are exhausted. 2 weeks or so I believe.
One cannot even be considered a candidate for being a human person if one is not an individual.

 

[Benadam]

For me it is to be self determined… After fertilization the zygote is that. The zygote alone is directing it’s growth. A zygote is an individual being human until being human for this individual reaches it’s final end.

John Paul II’s question;
How could a human individual not be a human person?

I think he means , that a human individual is of course a human person.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

John Paul II’s question;

How could a human individual not be a human person?

I have no problem with that myself.
The problem is when a zygote becomes an individual…it doesn’t seem to be at conception but 14 days later. Sounds like it could still be a delayed hominization to me.

But you haven’t answered my question - why does 14 days matter for you anyways?

 

[Benadam]

If you mean twinning, I agree it makes it difficult. But I was thinking that an individual that will become two is still an individual until it does . To say that the bodies of twins were in the past one individual body doesn’t seem to break any rules that define what an individual body is. That body was two persons. I foundWHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN? “SCIENTIFIC” MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS another argument online.-

However, twinning is possible after 14 days, e.g., with fetus-in-fetu and Siamese twins. Quoting from O�Rahilly again:

"Partial duplication at an early stage and attempted duplication from 2 weeks onward (when bilateral symmetry has become manifest) would result in conjoined twins (e.g., �Siamese twins�)."31 (Emphasis added.)

And even Karen Dawson acknowledges this as scientific fact in her article in Embryo Experimentation:

"After the time of primitive streak formation, other events are possible which indicate that the notion of �irreversible individuality� may need some review if it is to be considered as an important criterion in human life coming to be the individual human being it is ever thereafter to be. There are two conditions which raise questions about the adequacy of this notion: conjoined twins, sometimes known as Siamese twins, and fetus-in-fetu. … Conjoined twins arise from the twinning process occurring after the primitive streak has begun to form, that is, beyond 14 days after fertilization, or, in terms of the argument from segmentation, beyond the time at which irreversible individuality is said to exist. … This situation weakens the possibility of seeing individuality as something irreversibly resolved by about 14 days after fertilization. This in turn raises questions about the adequacy of using the landmark of segmentation in development as the determinant of moral status."32 (Emphasis added.)

 

[Benadam]

But you haven’t answered my question - why does 14 days matter for you anyways?

14 days doesn’t for me. I believe the zygote has what is necessary in of it’self to accept a rational soul. The zygote is self determining it’s growth. It’s end as a person is contained within it from the start. Delayed hominization requires the body to have the organization able to receive intellect. I would say since the zygote is directing it’s own growth to that end. Intellect necessarily exists…

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Don’t quite see the relevance?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Its a valid position of course - it has the potential to receive a rational human soul gives it a full right to life.
It effectively bypasses the arguments over personhood and individuality as irrelevant.

Intellect necessarily exists…

This is likely inconsistent with your prior statements. it means a rational soul exists from conception.
For that would mean a person exists from conception. Yet this is unlikely if the zygote can twin…that would mean there must be two or more rational souls causing the zygote to split. That is unlikely. What if the twins rejoin to be one person. Which rational soul lived and which one died? Or did both souls combine to form a new unique soul.
None of this makes sense.
But it may if the soul is a vegetative one. Bacteria does this sort of thing by nature.

 

[Benadam]

This is likely inconsistent with your prior statements. it means a rational soul exists from conception.

For that would mean a person exists from conception. Yet this is unlikely if the zygote can twin…that would mean there must be two or more rational souls causing the zygote to split.

If they split and become one again that isn’t a problem. What does it mean if they split and come back as one body but are in fact two persons?.Like siamese twins who were one zygote that twinned.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Nevermind, I do not think you grasp the problem re individuality.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

How could a human individual not be a human person?

Actually this is not JPII.

Its from Donum Vitae, 1987 (Card Ratzinger)

Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion.

As the possibility of human zygote splitting was only confirmed in 1993 (initiating much debate) the discovery of this thorny problem of twinning and recombination was likely unknown to Cardinal Ratzinger when he made the above statement.

 

[Benadam]

The discussion was to explore. Most of us accept what the Church teaches. It progressed to asking about meanings of terms. What is individuated human life? among others. It splits sometimes and comes back as one sometimes. Does that mean it was not an individual human life before and after it split?

 

[midori]

The OP mentioned Evangelium Vitae in post 4.

I also cited Ratzinger’s excellent writing in post 31.

But a giant chunk of this conversation seems to be talking about philosophies that were bandied around 100 years ago, 500 years ago, and treating them like doctrine. But Ratzinger himself-- like was pointed out in post 31 and in post 113-- says that the Magisterium has never expressly committed itself definitively to one philosophy or another, even though certain philosophies were considered “working theories” and were popularly accepted enough that you run into it in writings of the time.

 

[Benadam]

yeah, I did wander. It’s just that I had never heard of ‘delayed hominization’ and that my hero Thomas Aquinas considered it true. I am somewhat attached to the idea that the human soul acts on the zygote in a way Pope John Paul II described life transcending it’self

for a lower state to become higher a high state must lift it up.

 

[DanielJohn2300]

Thanks Benadam! That certainly was interesting. The author uses twinning to make a good case for ensoulment (or personalization) happening when gastrulation is completed (about a week after implantation is completed). It turns out that it doesn’t matter which of the two processes (implantation or gastrulation) is when ensoulment happens, because there is no gap in time between the two processes where man can intervene and prevent the second process from starting. Because of this, we can think of implantation/gastrulation as a single process during which ensoulment happens.

If twinning occurs during the I/G process, then you end up with identical twins and it means that the original single embryo started being infused with two souls before separating into two embryos, each with his/her own soul. We know that a single embryo can be infused with two souls because of siamese twins. Siamese twins (two souls in one body) are the the result of twinning happening so late in the I/G process that the I/G process completes before twinning completes. When the I/G process completes, you have a single embryo with two groups of brain cells. Since the brain houses the soul, you end up with two souls sharing the same body (siamese twins).

 

[midori]

Here’s a historical example of someone promoting the concept of delayed ensoulment, in reference to the Immaculate Conception, from sometime around 1655, from a famous abbess. It’s promoted as a working theory— but never defined as doctrine. Spermatazoa was not discovered until 1677; mammalian ovum weren’t discovered until 1827; and the human ovum itself was never directly observed until 1928.

1. The day on which the first Conception of the
   body of the most holy Mary happened, was a Sunday,
   corresponding to the day of the week on which the an
   gels were created, whose exalted Queen and Lady She
   was to be. For the formation and growth of other
   human bodies, according to the natural order, many
   days are necessary in order to organize and fit them for
   the reception of the rational soul. Thus for a manchild
   are required forty and for females eighty days,
   more or less, according to the natural heat and disposi
   tion of the mothers. In the formation of the virginal
   body of Mary the Almighty accelerated the natural time
   and that, which according to the natural rule required
   eighty days, was accomplished in Her within seven days.
   Within these seven days, by accelerated growth, was
   organized and prepared in the womb of holy Anne that
   wonderful body which was to receive the most holy soul
   of her Daughter and of our Lady and Queen.
2. On the Saturday next following this first Conception,
   the Almighty wrought the second Conception
   by creating the soul of his Mother and infusing
   it into the body; and thus entered into the world that pure
   Creature, more holy, perfect and agreeable to His eyes
   than all those He had created, or will create to the end
   of the world, or through the eternities. God maintained
   a mysterious correspondence in the execution of this
   work with that of creating all the rest of the world in
   seven days, as is related in the book of Genesis. Then
   no doubt He rested in truth, according to the figurative
   language of Scripture, since He has now created the
   most perfect Creature of all, giving through it a be
   ginning to the work of the divine Word and to the Re
   demption of the human race. Thus was this day a
   paschal feast for God and also for all creatures.

 

[midori]

1. On account of this Immaculate Conception of
   most holy Mary the holy Spirit has provided that Saturday
   be consecrated to the Virgin in the holy Church,
   since that was the day on which She received the great
   est benefit through the creation of her soul and its
   union with its body without entailing sin or its effects.
   The day of the Immaculate Conception, which the Church
   now celebrates, is not the day of her first conception, when
   the body alone was conceived, but it is the day of her second
   Conception or the infusion of her soul. Body and soul, therefore,
   remained for nine months in the womb of holy Anne, which are
   the days that intervene between the Conception to the Nativity of that Queen.
   During the other seven days preceding the vivification
   of the inanimate body, it was disposed and organized by
   the divine power, in order that this work might corre
   spond with the account that Moses gives of the Creation
   of all things, comprising the formation of the whole
   world at its beginning. At the instant of the creation
   and infusion of the soul in the most holy Mother, the
   most blessed Trinity, repeated with greater affection of
   love the words, recorded by Moses at that time concern
   ing man : "Let us make Mary to our image and like
   ness to be our true Daughter and Spouse and a Mother
   to the Onlybegotten of the Father.

 

[midori]

1. By the force of this divine pronouncement and
   through the love with which it issued from the mouth of
   Almighty, was created and infused into the body of most
   holy Mary her most blessed Soul At the same time
   She was filled with grace and gifts above those of the
   highest seraphim of heaven, and there was not a single
   instant in which She was found wanting or deprived
   of the light, the friendship and love of the Creator, or
   in which She was touched by the stain or darkness of
   original sin. On the contrary She was possessed of the
   most perfect justice, superior to that of Adam and Eve
   in their first formation. To Her was also conceded the
   most perfect use of the light of reason, corresponding
   to the gifts of grace, which She had received Not for
   one instant was She to remain idle, but to engage in
   works most admirable and pleasing to her Maker. In
   the perception of this great mystery I confess myself
   overcome, so that my heart, unable to express itself in
   words, is dumbfounded in sentiments of admiration and
   of praise. I see the Ark of the Testament joined
   together, enriched and placed in the temple of a sterile
   mother with greater glory than the figurative one in the
   house of Obededon, and of David, or in the temple
   of Solomon (II Reg. 6, 11 III Reg. 8, 6). I see the altar
   of the Holy of holies (Is. 65, 17), whence is to be of
   fered the first sacrifice that is to overcome and prove
   acceptable to God; I see the order of nature break from
   its laws to be rearranged; I see new laws established
   against sin, disregarding those of the common order,
   overpowering those of guilt, conquering those of na
   ture and supervening even those of grace itself; I see
   the formation of a new earth, and of a new heaven (Is.
   65, 17) being the womb of a most humble woman,
   whither the eyes of the most holy Trinity are directed,
   where the Divinity presides, where the courtiers of the
   ancient heavens gather, and whither a thousand angels
   are delegated to form a guard over a tiny, animated
   body not larger than that of a little bee.

 

[Benadam]

DanielJohn, that helped. I feel like I’m not as many pages behind now. Also, thank you for posting such a thought provoking thread. These terms are so new to me I’ve got to do some work to catch up and sometimes think I’m on the same page when I’m not.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The problem is who makes the soul, God or man?
All an embryologist needs to do is take a lancet and tease apart an 8 cell zygote…and voila, 8 identical twins will be born.

Do they share the same original soul?
Did the embryologist make the 7 new souls?
Which has the original soul?
What happened to the original soul?

Now Aquinas would likely hold that lower “material souls” can arise from the processes of matter ifself. But human rational souls are spiritual and immortal and infused directly by God.
Which soul better explains these difficulties?

It does seem a material soul better solves the conundrum.
How can a lancet create immortal spiritual rational human souls?