How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Amandil]

I’m not sure that a few inconveniences that the Egyptians suffered could be classed as really evil, but what about killing the seventh born of every household? Did that remove sin in someway? Was that the only way an omnipotent God could persuade someone to do something?

Or are we not meant to take it literally…

Again, you utterly miss the point.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I guess the question is now: Why did He intentionally leave it corrupted and perverted?

Feel free to discuss it if you like.

:twocents:

To answer the question, for anyone interested in knowing God, I think it is best to focus on what is closest (since God is closer).
Scripture makes sense in the light of reality; one has to hone in on reality first.

So, why does God permit me to sin?
Because He wants me to choose love.

Why does He leave me corrupted and perverted?
He hasn’t.
Through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross and His resurrection, we are reconciled with God, who is Beauty and Goodness Itself.
We can live eternally in loving communion with Him.

One should read the Catechism.

 

[Bradski]

Post 467.

One of those quotes? I’m sorry, I don’t see the relevance of any of them. Can you explain?

Again, you utterly miss the point.

Good grief, could you please give a straightforward answer? If you think I am missing the point, then it might be a good idea, this being a forum and all, to tell me what you think the point actually is.

Are we to take the story about killing the first born literally? If so, then how do you think that it can be explained. Simple act of terrorism?

And apologies for perhaps confusing the matter by referring to it earlier as ‘the seventh child’.

 

[oldcelt]

:twocents:

To answer the question, for anyone interested in knowing God, I think it is best to focus on what is closest (since God is closer).
Scripture makes sense in the light of reality; one has to hone in on reality first.

So, why does God permit me to sin?
Because He wants me to choose love.

Why does He leave me corrupted and perverted?
He hasn’t.
Through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross and His resurrection, we are reconciled with God, who is Beauty and Goodness Itself.
We can live eternally in loving communion with Him.

One should read the Catechism.

Alyosium,

I respect, even admire your love for your God, but you do realize that there are billions of believers on this planet who would not agree with a single line you have written? We must live in separate realities (great book), because the world I observe makes no sense in light of the bible, nor does the Deity(ies) described within its pages.

I know that most people here find my beliefs dark and brooding, but I am a mostly happy, productive and loving person. Do I believe in an afterlife…I’m uncertain. I think that their are some possibilities, just not the traditional heaven and hell model.

Back to the OP, the biblical God cannot avoid His written record, and it’s a dandy. I just simply couldn’t believe that that was the Deity of all creation any longer.

 

[Amandil]

One of those quotes? I’m sorry, I don’t see the relevance of any of them. Can you explain?

If you don’t see the relevance, then there’s nothing I can say to help what you apparently refuse to see. You either get it or you don’t.

Bradski:

Good grief, could you please give a straightforward answer? If you think I am missing the point, then it might be a good idea, this being a forum and all, to tell me what you think the point actually is.

Are we to take the story about killing the first born literally? If so, then how do you think that it can be explained. Simple act of terrorism?

You clearly have not read the story within context, or you are ignoring essential parts of the story to make another cheap point. You neither understand the theological sense involved in the plagues themselves.

I’m beginning to think that you really don’t care to either, so that to try and explain would be no different as throwing pearls.

 

[Amandil]

Alyosium,

I respect, even admire your love for your God, but you do realize that there are billions of believers on this planet who would not agree with a single line you have written? We must live in separate realities (great book), because the world I observe makes no sense in light of the bible, nor does the Deity(ies) described within its pages.

“Sin obscures sight.” Hans Urs vanBalthasar.
oldlcelt:

I know that most people here find my beliefs dark and brooding, but I am a mostly happy, productive and loving person. Do I believe in an afterlife…I’m uncertain. I think that their are some possibilities, just not the traditional heaven and hell model.

But is that all that you think there is to life, to be a “mostly happy, productive, and loving”(whatever “loving” may be)?

Heaven and hell are not “models”. Either they are realities or they are not.

And what other possibilities are there? Materialism? Paganism? Reincarnation? Pantheism? Or Platonism?

Are you really willing to look for an answer or are you in this the same as you are about other matters regarding the issue, content in obstinacy and ignorance.

oldcelt:

Back to the OP, the biblical God cannot avoid His written record, and it’s a dandy. I just simply couldn’t believe that that was the Deity of all creation any longer.

You clearly have not understood what you read.

That’s not a mark against you, as an atheist neither did I. Sin darkens the intellect.

 

[oldcelt]

“Sin obscures sight.” Hans Urs vanBalthasar.

But is that all that you think there is to life, to be a “mostly happy, productive, and loving”(whatever “loving” may be)?

Heaven and hell are not “models”. Either they are realities or they are not.

And what other possibilities are there? Materialism? Paganism? Reincarnation? Pantheism? Or Platonism?

Are you really willing to look for an answer or are you in this the same as you are about other matters regarding the issue, content in obstinacy and ignorance.

You clearly have not understood what you read.

That’s not a mark against you, as an atheist neither did I. Sin darkens the intellect.

Heaven and hell are models to me…they do not exist in my belief. Other possibilities…retained consciousness since energy (thought) can neither be created or destroyed is my personal favorite…but who knows for certain?

I searched for an answer for nearly 50 years and your ad hominems demonstrate that you may have some searching to do. If you can’t discuss your beliefs without calling someone ignorant, obstinate or illiterate, then you have some growing to do.

I understand what I read very well and even make flow charts to help with the process. I am a thrice published author in books and have several hundred articles to my credit. My life revolves around research, reading and writing.

Remember, just because you say something is so, doesn’t make it reality. So far a sin darkening the intellect, I think that poor behavior darkens all aspects of our life. That is why I make a conscious effort to avoid it as best I can.

 

[Bradski]

If you don’t see the relevance, then there’s nothing I can say to help what you apparently refuse to see. You either get it or you don’t.

I’m not in the mood to parse every quote that you post be it from scripture, Tolkein or The Vampire Diaries to work out what you mean, however relevant you think it is. You can explain it or not.

You clearly have not read the story within context, or you are ignoring essential parts of the story to make another cheap point. You neither understand the theological sense involved in the plagues themselves.

Well, let me have a shot and you can tell me where I’m going wrong and (hopefully) commit yourself to an explanation as you see it.

God wanted the Egyptians to let His people go. They refused so he decided to use a little muscle to get what he wanted. One of the methods was to threaten to kill all the first born of every Egyptian. Do it or the kid gets it!

The Egyptians didn’t think that He’d go that far. let’s face it, who would… But…He kept his promise and killed them.

How am I doing so far?

 

[Amandil]

I’m not in the mood to parse every quote that you post be it from scripture, Tolkein or The Vampire Diaries to work out what you mean, however relevant you think it is. You can explain it or not.

Exactly what I thought.

Well, let me have a shot and you can tell me where I’m going wrong and (hopefully) commit yourself to an explanation as you see it.

God wanted the Egyptians to let His people go. They refused so he decided to use a little muscle to get what he wanted. One of the methods was to threaten to kill all the first born of every Egyptian. Do it or the kid gets it!

The Egyptians didn’t think that He’d go that far. let’s face it, who would… But…He kept his promise and killed them.

How am I doing so far?

You’ve cut out more than half the story.

It’s as shoddy as those who argue against the Crusades yet conveniently forget the almost 400 years prior.

 

[Bradski]

You’ve cut out more than half the story.

Well, I’m assuming you know it all, so I don’t want to run through the whole thing. But we’re up to the bit where he kills the kids. Which, let’s face it, is the section that’s relevant to the thread.

If you like we could go on a little and say that after he kills them the Egyptians can see he’s not going to take no for an answer and they relent.

So was he justified in killing them? Feel free to add relevant parts of the story if you think it will help clarify your answer.

 

[Amandil]

I searched for an answer for nearly 50 years and your ad hominems demonstrate that you may have some searching to do. If you can’t discuss your beliefs without calling someone ignorant, obstinate or illiterate, then you have some growing to do.

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never called you “illiterate”, I said that you do not understand what you are reading, big difference.

Being “unwilling to change or give up something such as an idea or attitude” is by definition obstinacy.

Insisting on being uninformed on something is by definition ignorance.

I always have “growing” to do, we all do, I’m not afraid to admit it. Perhaps you do as well.

In any case refusing to address the major flaws in your logic and addressing the major deficiencies in your understanding of Christianity are detrimental to having any common ground to begin with.

oldcelt:

I understand what I read very well and even make flow charts to help with the process. I am a thrice published author in books and have several hundred articles to my credit. My life revolves around research, reading and writing.

Many people are published, it hardly means that they know what they’re talking about, it just means that they have a marketable viewpoint to sell.

oldcelt:

Remember, just because you say something is so, doesn’t make it reality.

Goes both ways. The difference is that I place less importance on my opinions and more on the truth. What I say only matters so long as it corresponds to the Truth.

oldcelt:

So far a sin darkening the intellect, I think that poor behavior darkens all aspects of our life. That is why I make a conscious effort to avoid it as best I can.

Yet you remain a deist. Ever consider the possibility that may also be poor behavior which has darkened your intellect as well?(See Romans 1:18-32).

 

[Amandil]

Well, I’m assuming you know it all, so I don’t want to run through the whole thing. But we’re up to the bit where he kills the kids. Which, let’s face it, is the section that’s relevant to the thread.

If you like we could go on a little and say that after he kills them the Egyptians can see he’s not going to take no for an answer and they relent.

So was he justified in killing them? Feel free to add relevant parts of the story if you think it will help clarify your answer.

This is simply disengenuous.

If you’re not going to be intellectually honest then this discussion is pointless.

 

[Bradski]

This is simply disengenuous. If you’re not going to be intellectually honest then this discussion is pointless.

No problem. A reply is not compulsory. Have a good one…

But if you like, you can explain why you think God was justified in what He did (preferably without a quote from the Hobbit).

 

[Amandil]

No problem. A reply is not compulsory. Have a good one…

But if you like, you can explain why you think God was justified in what He did (preferably without a quote from the Hobbit).

You mean aside from the slaughter of the all male infant Jews by Pharaoh?

 

[oneofmany]

How could a moral God allow suffering?

You must be new to the subject. You never suffered and found great things came from it?

I recently broke my wrist. I had an operation on it and OT which hurt really bad. If I don’t go through the pain of therapy I will never get back my flexibility with it. My wrist will freeze or I will have the pain. Which one should I choose? Pain gives us back what we lost.

 

[Bradski]

You mean aside from the slaughter of the all male infant Jews by Pharaoh?

Well, that’s not relevant, is it? I’m not asking who you think was the worst offender or who started it. I want to know if you think if God was justified in doing it.

Unless you are arguing that God was justified in killing the children in retribution because Pharaoh killed the Jews? This isn’t Godfather II, for heaven’s sake.

 

[Amandil]

Well, that’s not relevant, is it? I’m not asking who you think was the worst offender or who started it. I want to know if you think if God was justified in doing it.

Unless you are arguing that God was justified in killing the children in retribution because Pharaoh killed the Jews? This isn’t Godfather II, for heaven’s sake.

As I said, disengenuous.

Your rationale is so inconsistent that its almost schizophrenic.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bradski]

As I said, disengenuous.

Your rationale is so inconsistent that its almost schizophrenic.

Have a nice day.

Hmm. I’ll put that down as a ‘no’, then.

 

[oldcelt]

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never called you “illiterate”, I said that you do not understand what you are reading, big difference.

Being “unwilling to change or give up something such as an idea or attitude” is by definition obstinacy.

Insisting on being uninformed on something is by definition ignorance.

I always have “growing” to do, we all do, I’m not afraid to admit it. Perhaps you do as well.

In any case refusing to address the major flaws in your logic and addressing the major deficiencies in your understanding of Christianity are detrimental to having any common ground to begin with.

Many people are published, it hardly means that they know what they’re talking about, it just means that they have a marketable viewpoint to sell.

Goes both ways. The difference is that I place less importance on my opinions and more on the truth. What I say only matters so long as it corresponds to the Truth.

Yet you remain a deist. Ever consider the possibility that may also be poor behavior which has darkened your intellect as well?(See Romans 1:18-32).

And you call me obstinate? I am a Deist because of years of research with no foregone conclusion. That is how research is supposed to be done. So, I was willing to give up an idea I had held for 50 years in a search for the truth. Could I be wrong…we might ALL be wrong.

But I understand Christianity very well.

 

[tonyrey]

Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - as the LORD your God has commanded you" is a snippet purporting to represent the Will of God throughout the Old Testament yet it does not tally with “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice” (Hosea) and many other texts.

“Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - as the LORD your God has commanded you” is a fragment of the Old Testament purporting to represent the fundamental Jewish concept of God regardless of many other texts to the contrary, e.g.

But you are a God ready to forgive, gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and you did not forsake them.

Nehemiah 9:17

The Creator is not a Destroyer.

Is it not meant to be taken literally?

Only Fundamentalists believe every opinion in the Old Testament should be taken literally. Divine inspiration does not entail infallibility.