How could a moral God allow suffering?

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oldcelt said:
A person who believes in God as creator, but not controller. He leaves humans to deal with human affairs.
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How can God be a creator but not a controller?

The universe was created, but it was set in motion to obey certain laws of nature. Aren’t those laws a manifestation of God’s control over the universe?

If the universe unfolded as the laws of nature made it unfold, that is further evidence of God’s control.

And if those laws performed in such a way as to bring into existence the human race, is that not indirectly a manifestation of God’s control?

God ~ Natural laws ~ Man

Yes, God leaves humans to deal with human affairs, but since humans owe their existence to God and to the laws of nature God created, how is God not still in control?

The universe has a purpose, or there would be no reason for God to create it.

What does Deism say that purpose is?
 
AprilFoolish said:
I am just curious if the catholic God is malevolent of he ‘allows suffering’
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I have explained that God is able and willing to prevent evil but it would defeat the purpose of creating independent beings. Why do people die fighting for freedom? Because it’s better than being a slave.

That isn’t malevolence but benevolence. If we never suffered we’d become spoilt brats!
 
AprilFoolish said:
I am just curious if the catholic God is malevolent of he ‘allows suffering’
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I have explained that God is able and willing to prevent evil but it would defeat the purpose of creating independent beings. Why do people die fighting for freedom? Because it’s better than being a slave.

That isn’t malevolence but benevolence. If we never suffered we’d become spoiled brats!
 
Perhaps God is both able and willing to prevent evil and will do so in his own good times and seasons?
 
tonyrey said:
I have explained that God is able and willing to prevent evil but it would defeat the purpose of creating independent beings. Why do people die fighting for freedom? Because it’s better than being a slave.

That isn’t malevolence but benevolence. If we never suffered we’d become spoiled brats!
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Not sure, if mankind diminishes suffering in the world, we would create brats and so should allow people to suffer - for their own good, so to speak. Bit sadistic.
 
I hope it wasn’t post # 1015 that inspired oldcelt to make a fast exit. 🤷

I really wanted to hear his answers.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I hope it wasn’t post # 1015 that inspired oldcelt to make a fast exit. 🤷

I really wanted to hear his answers.
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Certainly not…people can have very different visions of God. That yours’ and mine differ takes no validity from mine or yours. Neither of us have ant proof, though it seems you want that from me.

It just ain’t out there. I just happen to not frequent this place as much as many.
 
Deism is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.
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Pretty good definition for someone who uses his handle as that of the old the HRE…now long gone.

Take it for what it is.
 
AprilFoolish said:
Not sure, if mankind diminishes suffering in the world, we would create brats and so should allow people to suffer - for their own good, so to speak. Bit sadistic.
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It’s not a question of all or nothing. Hedonism and sadism are unreasonable extremes…
 
Deism is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.
Click to expand...
recognition = faith
  • not everyone “recognizes” the same reality
  • we are still talking about a revealed truth, but here emphasizing that it would be more obtained than given
universal creative force
  • there is no evidence that a force causes this to happen
  • it is an idea, an assumption of something that cannot be proved
  • it addresses the “problem” rather than the “mystery”, putting it in language used by science
greater than mankind
  • greater, but somehow lesser, being merely a force
personal observation
  • we are dealing with relationships
  • an observation is based on what is known
  • moulding sensory data into something understandable in the intellect
  • it does not take much observation to see that the approach defines what one will see
  • treat the world as “object”, all you will see are “objects”
  • who is the person, and how is it that he observes?
laws and designs in . . .
  • if one approaches people in this manner, they quickly get the game you are playing and will be very cautious around you
  • the reason why the world is in such a mess has to do with the lack of love, the suspicion and using of each other
  • considering the Ground of creation as purely an object of study and not reverence, if one does not know Him as the beloved, one will be left alienated, in their own ideas
validated by the innate ability of human reason
  • what if using one’s faculties makes obvious that the “claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation” are true?
The issue I have with Deism is its focus on a rational God who is all about power - omniscience and omnipotence.
In Christ, we see revealed God who is love, in Himself and in relation to the cosmos He created.
It is created through God’s love. Its being reflects the light and the beauty that is our Creator.
Take for ourselves that beauty - pleasures, things, power and honour, without that connection with He who is its Cause, leaves us with stuff that rusts and dies.
It is only love that brings us happiness because it is what is truly real and lasting…
 
oldcelt said:
Certainly not…people can have very different visions of God. That yours’ and mine differ takes no validity from mine or yours. Neither of us have ant proof, though it seems you want that from me.
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I don’t need proof. I need a reasoned explanation of Deism. To believe in the Deist God seems to me to require explanation. I have Revelation to support my belief. You may disagree that revelation is meaningful. But you seem to have no revelation and Deism seems to fly by the seat of its pants. Or, to use another metaphor, is Deism not simply a shot in the dark? Is Deism just a ploy to acknowledge God while refusing to have anything to do with him? In that respect it seems to me barely different from agnosticism and atheism.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I don’t need proof. I need a reasoned explanation of Deism. To believe in the Deist God seems to me to require explanation. I have Revelation to support my belief. You may disagree that revelation is meaningful. But you seem to have no revelation and Deism seems to fly by the seat of its pants. Or, to use another metaphor, is Deism not simply a shot in the dark? Is Deism just a ploy to acknowledge God while refusing to have anything to do with him? In that respect it seems to me barely different from agnosticism and atheism.
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This should help you: agnosticism.tribe.net/thread/6ad56654-4b77-486b-b5ce-08db843caea7
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I don’t need proof. I need a reasoned explanation of Deism. To believe in the Deist God seems to me to require explanation.
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Indeed.

The fact that oldcelt may not like the fact that God permits suffering does not mean that the God of Scripture doesn’t exist.

It would appear that the paradigm he is following is, “I wouldn’t worship a God who let me suffer, so I’m going to create a god who exists, but doesn’t cause suffering.”

We would need some sort of evidence/argument/proof that this god exists–more than,
“I don’t like it that the God of Abraham and David permits suffering.”
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I don’t need proof. I need a reasoned explanation of Deism. To believe in the Deist God seems to me to require explanation. I have Revelation to support my belief. You may disagree that revelation is meaningful. But you seem to have no revelation and Deism seems to fly by the seat of its pants. Or, to use another metaphor, is Deism not simply a shot in the dark? Is Deism just a ploy to acknowledge God while refusing to have anything to do with him? In that respect it seems to me barely different from agnosticism and atheism.
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I think sometimes its just like in the times of Christ, you can choose to accept him or reject him its that simple. But just because someone rejects Christ in no way makes him not God, the same as us accepting him makes him God. Truth is Truth.

Christ told us some will accept him and those who do are his own. Those who refuse to accept him are not of him and want nothing to do with him.

Its really no different to say I don’t believe he exists, or I don’t believe in him. People did not believe in him, yet knew he existed, because they saw him with their own eyes. Others believed in him and saw. So you still had people even back them who USED FREE WILL to deny or refuse to follow him.

It is a question of do YOU want him in your life, if you do, he knows this and will be a part of your life, all you must do is ask, Ask and you WILL receive. God knows a sincere heart and never fails.

Even after people SAW him raised from the dead, still there were some who refused to follow him. So it is still a way of choosing to reject him.

You can find any reason in the world to reject him, you can say I don’t see him so he does not exist, You can say if he was real why suffering, why this or that. Its a Choice. Human free will. You choose to reject him with it or accept him with it. Its quite simple.
 
rinnie said:
You can find any reason in the world to reject him, you can say I don’t see him so he does not exist, You can say if he was real why suffering, why this or that. Its a Choice. Human free will. You choose to reject him with it or accept him with it. Its quite simple.
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Indeed.

Rejection of the God of the Bible does not necessarily prove that the god of the Deists exists.

There needs to be some sort of rational explanation for why the Deist believes that his version of god exists.
 
PRmerger said:
Indeed.

Rejection of the God of the Bible does not necessarily prove that the god of the Deists exists.

There needs to be some sort of rational explanation for why the Deist believes that his version of god exists.
Click to expand...
Especially when they defend that version in one breath, and deny him completely in the next.🤷
 
Aloysium said:
recognition = faith
  • not everyone “recognizes” the same reality
  • we are still talking about a revealed truth, but here emphasizing that it would be more obtained than given
universal creative force
  • there is no evidence that a force causes this to happen
  • it is an idea, an assumption of something that cannot be proved
  • it addresses the “problem” rather than the “mystery”, putting it in language used by science
greater than mankind
  • greater, but somehow lesser, being merely a force
personal observation
  • we are dealing with relationships
  • an observation is based on what is known
  • moulding sensory data into something understandable in the intellect
  • it does not take much observation to see that the approach defines what one will see
  • treat the world as “object”, all you will see are “objects”
  • who is the person, and how is it that he observes?
laws and designs in . . .
  • if one approaches people in this manner, they quickly get the game you are playing and will be very cautious around you
  • the reason why the world is in such a mess has to do with the lack of love, the suspicion and using of each other
  • considering the Ground of creation as purely an object of study and not reverence, if one does not know Him as the beloved, one will be left alienated, in their own ideas
validated by the innate ability of human reason
  • what if using one’s faculties makes obvious that the “claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation” are true?
The issue I have with Deism is its focus on a rational God who is all about power - omniscience and omnipotence.
In Christ, we see revealed God who is love, in Himself and in relation to the cosmos He created.
It is created through God’s love. Its being reflects the light and the beauty that is our Creator.
Take for ourselves that beauty - pleasures, things, power and honour, without that connection with He who is its Cause, leaves us with stuff that rusts and dies.
It is only love that brings us happiness because it is what is truly real and lasting…
Click to expand...
:clapping: A god without love isn’t worth having…
 
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