How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Nate123]

Yes, but, why the Holocaust? Why let his ‘chosen’ people suffer so much? Aren’t / weren’t the jews his chosen people?

I have only recently been questioning this as what i said in my previous post because i went to Auschwitz and have been reading up on the terrors of the camp and other concentration camps and death camps.

Just hard to understand why he would let all those people, his ‘chosen’ people to suffer and die like that! Could it be that it was because the Jews sent Jesus to the cross?

It doesn’t seem like you understood my post. God can’t intervene without diminishing his creatures. He is dependent on us because he ha given us the gifts. God hated the Holocaust and he needed us to end it.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

1. In a world without suffering - whether through human evil or exterior events - how would it be possible for us to act virtuously? How could we show compassion, charity, fortitude, courage, or pity?

Would we be aught but well-pampered sheep?

1. We generally hold that one’s moral duty is discharged if one commands an agent to carry out that duty.

Thus, the chief of police in the NYPD has a moral duty to prevent crime. The FBI Director has a moral duty to prevent terrorism. The head of a hospital has a moral duty to alleviate pain, injury and disease. We all agree on this.

We do not require these three to do all these tasks themselves. The NYPD Chief does not have to respond personally to a domestic violence call to fulfill his moral duty, nor does the FBI Director have to personally infiltrate a domestic al Qaeda cell, nor does the head of a hospital have to treat each patient. They have men and women under their command that they direct to carry out a mission. No one denies this.

God also has moral agents that he created and who are under his command that he has ordered to prevent and alleviate suffering. He has angels, he has saints, and he has those of us living on Earth. No Christian denies this.

Angels can act at the command of God to protect us. We have no idea how many acts of suffering may be prevented this way. The saints can offer their prayers for intercession on our behalf. We as Catholics believe both these things are true, and happen.

That leaves us. If there is suffering that serves no purpose (and as we lack God’s omniscient view, we can’t even argue that there is such a thing as suffering that serves no purpose, as Alvin Plantinga has shown), it is because we have failed in our moral duty to act as God’s agents to prevent and alleviate suffering. It was clearly commanded to us.

Before anyone makes this argument, they should first examine themselves and ask if they have done everything possible to prevent the suffering of others. (I certainly haven’t, and should be trying harder).

If not, should they be asking the question?

Why blame God for our moral failings?

 

[ajecphotos]

I am sure God wouldnt mind me asking about this subject. Doesnt make me love him less. Just curious thats all. To watch millions suffer in the Holocaust etc must have been extremely hard for God.

I am sure that God did help in lots of ways though!

 

[bedan_elite]

1. In a world without suffering - whether through human evil or exterior events - how would it be possible for us to act virtuously? How could we show compassion, charity, fortitude, courage, or pity?

Would we be aught but well-pampered sheep?

1. We generally hold that one’s moral duty is discharged if one commands an agent to carry out that duty.

Thus, the chief of police in the NYPD has a moral duty to prevent crime. The FBI Director has a moral duty to prevent terrorism. The head of a hospital has a moral duty to alleviate pain, injury and disease. We all agree on this.

We do not require these three to do all these tasks themselves. The NYPD Chief does not have to respond personally to a domestic violence call to fulfill his moral duty, nor does the FBI Director have to personally infiltrate a domestic al Qaeda cell, nor does the head of a hospital have to treat each patient. They have men and women under their command that they direct to carry out a mission. No one denies this.

God also has moral agents that he created and who are under his command that he has ordered to prevent and alleviate suffering. He has angels, he has saints, and he has those of us living on Earth. No Christian denies this.

Angels can act at the command of God to protect us. We have no idea how many acts of suffering may be prevented this way. The saints can offer their prayers for intercession on our behalf. We as Catholics believe both these things are true, and happen.

That leaves us. If there is suffering that serves no purpose (and as we lack God’s omniscient view, we can’t even argue that there is such a thing as suffering that serves no purpose, as Alvin Plantinga has shown), it is because we have failed in our moral duty to act as God’s agents to prevent and alleviate suffering. It was clearly commanded to us.

Before anyone makes this argument, they should first examine themselves and ask if they have done everything possible to prevent the suffering of others. (I certainly haven’t, and should be trying harder).

If not, should they be asking the question?

Why blame God for our moral failings?

 

[oldcelt]

People suffering with incurable disease can hardly be written off as a moral failing on our part. We are trying, buy lack the tools at present.
I believe suffering is just a consequence of life. It has no purpose and is very arbitrary which, in my view, leaves God out of the equation.
The canard that we just don’t understand the eternal purpose has been used for ages to try to explain away the problem. It can’t be explained away…it is a fact for all to see.
The rest is a matter of personal speculation.

 

[Nate123]

People suffering with incurable disease can hardly be written off as a moral failing on our part. We are trying, buy lack the tools at present.
I believe suffering is just a consequence of life. It has no purpose and is very arbitrary which, in my view, leaves God out of the equation.
The canard that we just don’t understand the eternal purpose has been used for ages to try to explain away the problem. It can’t be explained away…it is a fact for all to see.
The rest is a matter of personal speculation.

Why do you think God is offended at sin? It is because it causes suffering and death. We all have been told the lies that God is for himself and not for us. The opposite is true. God is very angry at sin but he is only angry FOR us and not at us. And so he came down to share in our sufferings so that our suffering may become the sufferings of God. In this way God has defeated our diminshment and we became saviors to every other person. God has ordained that you will become his equal by his gift to you. Only this way suffering and death become conquered. If God didn’t take on our suffering and death as his own, there would be no hope for the future, for suffering and death would have the final word.

 

[tonyrey]

People suffering with incurable disease can hardly be written off as a moral failing on our part. We are trying, buy lack the tools at present.
I believe suffering is just a consequence of life. It has no purpose and is very arbitrary which, in my view, leaves God out of the equation.
The canard that we just don’t understand the eternal purpose has been used for ages to try to explain away the problem. It can’t be explained away…it is a fact for all to see.
The rest is a matter of personal speculation.

Suffering has a specific purpose: it is a defence mechanism essential for physical and psychological well-being and development.

 

[oldcelt]

Suffering has a specific purpose: it is a defence mechanism essential for physical and psychological well-being and development.

Pain may be…suffering, I think not

 

[oldcelt]

Why do you think God is offended at sin? It is because it causes suffering and death. We all have been told the lies that God is for himself and not for us. The opposite is true. God is very angry at sin but he is only angry FOR us and not at us. And so he came down to share in our sufferings so that our suffering may become the sufferings of God. In this way God has defeated our diminshment and we became saviors to every other person. God has ordained that you will become his equal by his gift to you. Only this way suffering and death become conquered. If God didn’t take on our suffering and death as his own, there would be no hope for the future, for suffering and death would have the final word.

Yet He knew precisely what would happen…long before it did.

 

[bedan_elite]

Yet He knew precisely what would happen…long before it did.

really? so what’s your point?

 

[ajecphotos]

I still cant get my head around the fact that God let the Holocaust happen! Anyone able to put me out of my misery?

 

[Aloysium]

I still cant get my head around the fact that God let the Holocaust happen! Anyone able to put me out of my misery?

Closer to home, He is allowing abortion to happen.

Ask Him, He’s right here.
I feel great pain in that silence, and much sin.
Jesus on the cross.

 

[thinkandmull]

Suffering is a consequence of life here on Earth. It cannot be eliminated anymore than breathing. But God has nothing to do with it, or he is the cause…and that is a God I could never worship. or even respect.

Mystically somehow, we are responsible for the first sin

 

[LaMBS]

I still cant get my head around the fact that God let the Holocaust happen! Anyone able to put me out of my misery?

Men need to understand that God created each of us, He sent His Son to die for each of us and his Son rose again. This is what gives us our dignity. As long as men are looked at as merely a fortuitous rolls of the molecular dice there is no value beyond one’s utility. If we all arrived here purely by chance and compete for limited resources to survive then others are fair game - it’s us or them. In the holocaust the Aryan race was ensuring their dominance by removing the competition. In abortions lifestyle is maintained by eliminating the interference. These are reasonable options if there is not inherent value in being a person.

 

[Nate123]

really? so what’s your point?

If God knew that the gifts of freedom, power, and universal causal significance would be abused, then why did he give them?

Answer:" In knowing of the eventual abuse of his maximal self-gift through sin, God either gives all that can be given and does exactly as he would have done as if he did not know that there would be an abuse of the gift, or he holds back his generosity in order to prevent the abuse from happening by giving something less than the total gift which he would have given originally. Necessarily, God either gives fully, as if evil were not a factor, or he gives something less in anticipation of evil. If God does exactly as he would have done were evil not a consideration at all, then the total gift is given without the least restraint even though he knows it will be abused; he creates exactly those whom he would have created, if evil were never to have been a consideration and gives away power and importance fully and without any degree of compromise in response to the threat of evil. However, if God holds back his generosity in anticipation of the evils that would follow from the abuse of his undiminished self-gift, then self-withholding in anticipation of evil (rather than uncompromising self-donation) becomes the guiding principle in the order of creation. Instead of unconditional love and generosity being the principle of divine action, reluctance to love in response to the threat of evil is elevated to the ultimate principle of being. Rather than the unconditional love of God, the power of evil takes the helm of the universe. It seems plausible at first glance that God’s goodness would be most exemplified by preventing the abuse of his gifts at the outset, but the deeper reality is that the self-withholding of God that would be necessary to prevent evil is the absolute enthronement of evil." New Apologetics

 

[Nate123]

Yet He knew precisely what would happen…long before it did.

"If God knew that the gifts of freedom, power, and universal causal significance would be abused, then why did he give them?

Answer:In knowing of the eventual abuse of his maximal self-gift through sin, God either gives all that can be given and does exactly as he would have done as if he did not know that there would be an abuse of the gift, or he holds back his generosity in order to prevent the abuse from happening by giving something less than the total gift which he would have given originally. Necessarily, God either gives fully, as if evil were not a factor, or he gives something less in anticipation of evil. If God does exactly as he would have done were evil not a consideration at all, then the total gift is given without the least restraint even though he knows it will be abused; he creates exactly those whom he would have created, if evil were never to have been a consideration and gives away power and importance fully and without any degree of compromise in response to the threat of evil. However, if God holds back his generosity in anticipation of the evils that would follow from the abuse of his undiminished self-gift, then self-withholding in anticipation of evil (rather than uncompromising self-donation) becomes the guiding principle in the order of creation. Instead of unconditional love and generosity being the principle of divine action, reluctance to love in response to the threat of evil is elevated to the ultimate principle of being. Rather than the unconditional love of God, the power of evil takes the helm of the universe. It seems plausible at first glance that God’s goodness would be most exemplified by preventing the abuse of his gifts at the outset, but the deeper reality is that the self-withholding of God that would be necessary to prevent evil is the absolute enthronement of evil." New Apologetics

 

[Nate123]

I still cant get my head around the fact that God let the Holocaust happen! Anyone able to put me out of my misery?

Let me break it down:

God is good.

God gave away all finite powers to angels and human for importance.

One of our powers is to intercede for one another.

If God intervened it would destroy our gifts and would diminish his creatures.

The holocaust happened because God couldn’t morally intervene for he would create harm on us creatures that would destroy our importance forever.

The redemption is the final blow to evil. God has made our sufferings his own. He experienced the full horror of the Holocaust. He felt all the pains of the holocaust (I mean this literally).

In doing this our lives are raised to the same dignity of God. We become saviors to every person that becomes saved and the suffering we go through have no power to diminish us.

Everything you go through is an saving act of salvation for everyone that goes to heaven.

God restores mankind in a higher redemptive order where you are made important to every person and we will have the glory of God.

 

[MarkInOregon]

What if He didn’t directly create humanity? What if He merely kick-started the process?
My view is better because the direct intervention of a deity in a positive manner on behalf of one of his creations, and not another, is discriminatory. If the Christian God is truly all-loving, He would intervene on behalf of all his suffering creatures…or none.

I have personally watched too many innocent children die horrific deaths to believe anything like that. If God is an interventionist, as Christianity teaches, then He is an arbitrary deity…and I’ll leave it at that out of respect for the board and those who believe other than I.

The problem is that you can’t see the whole picture in order to make the claims that you do regarding the morality of the action or inaction. This is not a rationalization or justification for what God does or does not do – it is a statement of fact–you don’t have all the relevant facts needed–you just assume you do. None of us have that knowledge. We all like to think we are smarter than we are – if God didn’t create the world we think he should have–then he isn’t xyz. I am not presumptuous enough to believe that I have the whole picture and am in a position to judge the act of being that created everything out of nothing. Doesn’t mean I don’t wonder but I do realize I don’t have all the information needed to draw an accurate conclusion.

And of course as you pointed out to Bill: Thank you for your view oldcelt…but it is precisely that.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

For many of the posters here suffering is a theoretical concept. Personally, I spent 24 years with a condition called Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. In this condition every nerve ending in the effected area feels like a toothache. My lower leg was so swollen that blood use to seep through the skin and occasionally my skin would burst because the pressure was too great. My pain doctor suggested that if I wished to convey the experience to women I should tell them that the pain is more severe than child birth and to relate to men I should tell them it is worse than kidney stones. I was prescribed pain medication for each of the three types of pain receptors in the brain. this made me unable to stay awake so I was prescribed medication to keep me awake. Eventually I was taking more than 107 pills per day plus methadone. Even this level of medication only dulled the pain but did not remove it. I saw all the specialist doctors in the area and all concluded that this condition was incurable.
I not only had the physical pain but the emotional pain of how this affected my ability to do anything other than suffer and how the condition affected my family. I had 2 young boys who I couldn’t go on hikes with or fish with or teach to throw a ball. For 5 years I couldn’t even walk without crutches and even with them could only walk a short distance. Most of the time I was dependent on an electric scooter. I couldn’t drive because of the medication, I couldn’t even carry on a coherent conversation. I know suffering. I also know that the suffering I endured brought me closer to my God than I could ever be without having had that suffering. As for God not directly intervening, Despite all the certainty of the doctors that my condition was permanent, I was healed while praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet at Church.
Most people who know me consider this to be a miracle and great blessing. Though I do not wish to return to that state, I personally consider receiving the pain and living with it to be a greater gift from God. I had a very good friend who died from cancer. My prayer for him as his cancer progressed was “God, please spare Glenn; but if You must take him now, please let me bare his pain.” About a year after my healing Glenn’s sister told me that his doctor informed her that Glenn was the only patient he had ever had, or even ever heard of, with that particular type of cancer that required no pain medication at all - not even a Tylenol. I feel that this simple act of love opened a door to allow God to act in me and through me to make Him better known and appreciated by many.
We do have a Merciful God who allows suffering. That suffering is a gift if we use it well.
By offering our suffering in communion with the suffering of Christ we do great good. If we look only from our current temporal perspective this cannot be understood. All things are a gift from a merciful God who knows what they will do for us despite the perception of those who will only see from their own limited perspective. One could never experience joy if no one ever suffered.

Thank you for sharing your story.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[ajecphotos]

For many of the posters here suffering is a theoretical concept. Personally, I spent 24 years with a condition called Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. In this condition every nerve ending in the effected area feels like a toothache. My lower leg was so swollen that blood use to seep through the skin and occasionally my skin would burst because the pressure was too great. My pain doctor suggested that if I wished to convey the experience to women I should tell them that the pain is more severe than child birth and to relate to men I should tell them it is worse than kidney stones. I was prescribed pain medication for each of the three types of pain receptors in the brain. this made me unable to stay awake so I was prescribed medication to keep me awake. Eventually I was taking more than 107 pills per day plus methadone. Even this level of medication only dulled the pain but did not remove it. I saw all the specialist doctors in the area and all concluded that this condition was incurable.
I not only had the physical pain but the emotional pain of how this affected my ability to do anything other than suffer and how the condition affected my family. I had 2 young boys who I couldn’t go on hikes with or fish with or teach to throw a ball. For 5 years I couldn’t even walk without crutches and even with them could only walk a short distance. Most of the time I was dependent on an electric scooter. I couldn’t drive because of the medication, I couldn’t even carry on a coherent conversation. I know suffering. I also know that the suffering I endured brought me closer to my God than I could ever be without having had that suffering. As for God not directly intervening, Despite all the certainty of the doctors that my condition was permanent, I was healed while praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet at Church.
Most people who know me consider this to be a miracle and great blessing. Though I do not wish to return to that state, I personally consider receiving the pain and living with it to be a greater gift from God. I had a very good friend who died from cancer. My prayer for him as his cancer progressed was “God, please spare Glenn; but if You must take him now, please let me bare his pain.” About a year after my healing Glenn’s sister told me that his doctor informed her that Glenn was the only patient he had ever had, or even ever heard of, with that particular type of cancer that required no pain medication at all - not even a Tylenol. I feel that this simple act of love opened a door to allow God to act in me and through me to make Him better known and appreciated by many.
We do have a Merciful God who allows suffering. That suffering is a gift if we use it well.
By offering our suffering in communion with the suffering of Christ we do great good. If we look only from our current temporal perspective this cannot be understood. All things are a gift from a merciful God who knows what they will do for us despite the perception of those who will only see from their own limited perspective. One could never experience joy if no one ever suffered.

Wonderful post and full of meaning. Many thanks indeed for sharing and certainly has made me think.

God bless you