How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Nate123]

I see no evidence of that God.

Yes it is the sin of the world that causes it to seem that this God doesn’t exist.

 

[LaMBS]

No need to settle for a "god’ that is not opposed to evil. The "god’ you describe screams “get away from me.” It a big reason atheists are atheists. They won’t settle for evil.

You said: “Love would be of no value if there were no cost to it.”

I reply: How can love be of no value? Love is self-gift. It has no concern of what it can get out of it or what may happen. Its just an total offering of oneself to another. The Father and the Son love each other with no suffering involved. Its only in the fallen world does love entail pain. There will be no pain in heaven you know.

Exactly! The gift of self is the ultimate cost that is paid in love. God’s love for Christ was not free of suffering; Jesus suffered for our sins in obedience to His Father’s will and God suffered sympathetically with all that Jesus suffered. Christ’s love for us is not free of suffering and neither will our love for each other because we are not free of sin. As long as sin remains in this world Christ will suffer and, even if we were to evolve to perfect unity with Christ and no longer suffer of our own sins, we will suffer in union with Christ over the sins of others.

 

[Nate123]

Exactly! The gift of self is the ultimate cost that is paid in love. God’s love for Christ was not free of suffering; Jesus suffered for our sins in obedience to His Father’s will and God suffered sympathetically with all that Jesus suffered. Christ’s love for us is not free of suffering and neither will our love for each other because we are not free of sin. As long as sin remains in this world Christ will suffer and, even if we were to evolve to perfect unity with Christ and no longer suffer of our own sins, we will suffer in union with Christ over the sins of others.

Yes I agree. Love is of value because it IS love. I agree Christ has made his suffering our own.

 

[josh987654321]

You make some excellent points Nate. I can also tell you that the main reason people become Deists is that they spend years in various churches being taught about an all-loving god, yet never see any evidence of it. They see suffering on all levels in the world, encounter religious educators who are obsessed with pain and suffering and all the while their prayers for help go unanswered.

I see no evidence of that God.

oldcelt, I believe you have forgotten the Passion of Christ.
Jesus Speaks about His Suffering and Death:

Matthew 16:21-23

21 From then on, Jesus began telling his disciples what would happen to him. He said, “I must go to Jerusalem. There the nation’s leaders, the chief priests, and the teachers of the Law of Moses will make me suffer terribly. I will be killed, but three days later I will rise to life.”

22 Peter took Jesus aside and told him to stop talking like that. He said, “God would never let this happen to you, Lord!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said,** “Satan, get away from me! You’re in my way because you think like everyone else and not like God.” **

It’s Satan in the book of Job that tells God that the only reason Job loves him is because he avoids the Cross, Satan basically say’s “Wait until he is faced with the Cross and he will curse you to your face.”

I believe C.S. Lewis also writes a good piece in his book ‘Screwtape Letters’ where the senior devil, Screwtape, writes to his junior tempter, Wormwood, about how to lead a human astray.

Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy’s will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys. - Screwtape

*“The son of God suffered unto death, not that men might not suffer, but that there sufferings might be like his.” *
― Geroge McDonald
Jesus is Nailed to a Cross:

Luke 23:26-43

32 Two criminals were led out to be put to death with Jesus. 33 When the soldiers came to the place called “The Skull,” they nailed Jesus to a cross. They also nailed the two criminals to crosses, one on each side of Jesus.

34-35 Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people! They don’t know what they’re doing.”

While the crowd stood there watching Jesus, the soldiers gambled for his clothes. The leaders insulted him by saying, “He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

36 The soldiers made fun of Jesus and brought him some wine. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”

38 Above him was a sign that said, “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

40 But the other criminal told the first one off, “Don’t you fear God? Aren’t you getting the same punishment as this man? 41 We got what was coming to us, but he didn’t do anything wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into power!”

43 Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

Those same taunts,

“He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”
“If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”
“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

*“Skeptics always want miracles such as stepping down from the Cross, but never the greater miracle of forgiveness.” *
― Fulton J. Sheen, Life of Christ
Jesus to Catalina:

From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf

**Observe these two condemned ones who flank Me and meditate on the ways that men carry their crosses. 8) “Some carry it with rage, with bitterness, amidst much grief. He who carries a cross in similar circumstances and with those sentiments, carries for sure a cross, which has no sense because instead of drawing him closer, it pushes him away from Me. Usually that is the cross of those who refuse to understand the meaning of suffering, which takes on supernatural dimensions. That is the cross of the thief at My left, it is the cross which will always be heavy and will never be able to redeem.

1. “Dismas, on My right, accepts his cross with resignation and even with dignity; he assumes it at first because he has no other recourse. But suddenly, when he recognizes Me and knows that I Am the Son of God, he accepts that cross, acknowledging himself as a sinner, and asking that through it, Mercy remembers him. 10) “Finally, you have Me here in front of you, embracing My redeeming Cross to teach all of you to carry yours. I invite you to be co-redeemers with Me, making reparation for your own sins and those of all mankind. Know that this way of carrying the cross is reflected in your conduct, when before you are difficulties and pains and through them you draw closer to Me and you profit from them to give testimony before men. When you embrace your cross, you can feel that the only thing you desire is strength, because the thirst for souls consumes you."**

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -
Jesus to Catalina:

I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

**4) I wish to speak to you again about My Passion because when I do so, I want to spread in your hearts feelings of union with Me, of compassion… to show you My Love.

1. When I was led to Calvary, there was condensed in Me all suffering which I always experienced, while thinking about the wickedness of mankind that so greatly offended a Father who is so good. That offended Love was what made Me suffer most, piercing My Soul at every sigh, at every step which brought Me closer to the crucifixion.
2. How I wish that mankind would cultivate greater devotion to My Passion! For that reason, I insist upon it, even though many “theologians” feel repulsion in their stomachs when they contemplate a statue representing Me weeping or bleeding.
3. My Passion is a compendium of Holy Love and supernatural Wisdom itself. Everything can be found during My hours of the Passion: every evil in the world transformed into good for eternity, and all the supernatural goodness of present mankind, united to the promise of the good that they may attain if they die protected by My Passion.
4. It is for that reason that time and time again I insist on it for those who gaze upon My crucified self, and I invite them to be with Me in order to relive the dreadful, bloody hours that led Me to sacrifice Myself.
5. Those who do not meditate on My sufferings, who do not compare them with their own, do not extract from the treasure chest of My Passion, the treasures that I have stored up for each one of you.
6. I assure you that those who meditate on My sorrowful Passion will derive many Graces, because it is a treasure chest of infinitely enormous benefits. By the same token, those who have paid no attention or have forgotten My sufferings will always find emptiness and spiritual poverty.
7. My sufferings will always be the Glory of My Father and My Glory, as well as the greatest demonstration of the Spirit of Love for you on earth.
   …
8. If you keep Me company while meditating on My Passion, I will make smooth your hardships, because as I have said, I always repay love with Love.**

Jesus to Catalina:

I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

**4) My Passion contains everything that you need today and tomorrow and it works marvellous miracles on all those who forget the world and themselves, in order to think of Me.

1. When everything is subordinated to My sufferings, to My Will, then My Passion brings great benefits to souls.
2. In the world, many words, too many are uttered! But if greater reasoning about Me, especially about My sorrow, were introduced [into the world], My Love would soon enkindle flames in your souls…
3. Yet I am deprived of this delight: the stirring of souls to unite their sufferings to Mine in order to attain comfort and strength, generosity and patience, all that which is lacking in men and women of these times.
4. They remove Me from nations, from households, from schools and even from many Christian installations. They do not want to exalt Christ crucified; they prefer to show Me to new generations as Christ Resurrected… as if Tabor could be separated from Calvary!
5. Many do not understand that those who love Me as Christ crucified and acknowledge My sufferings, will also love My Presence in the Eucharist.
6. But those who are ignorant of My Passion, will be unlikely to believe in and to love My Eucharistic Presence, alive, among them…**

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -
Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**"Contemplate My wounds and see if there is anyone who has suffered as much as I, to show their love…

"Contemplate for a moment these bloodstained hands and feet… This naked body, covered with wounds, with urine, and blood. Dirty… This head punctured by sharp thorns, soaked in sweat, full of dust, and covered in Blood…

"Contemplate your Jesus, hanging on the Cross, without being able to make the slightest movement… naked, without fame, without honor, without liberty…

"Contemplate Me in the image of the Christ that weeps and bleeds. There and in this way the world has Me**

http://s15.postimg.org/s9fu5lkbv/Crucifixion.jpg
Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**1) …Look at Me, My beloved ones. Letting Myself be led with the meekness of a lamb to the terrible torture of the scourging. On My Body, already covered with blows and overwhelmed with fatigue, the executioners cruelly discharge terrible lashes with braided rope, with rods. They punish Me so violently that there was no part of Me which was not prey to the most terrible pain… The blows and the kicks caused Me countless wounds… The rods tore away pieces of My skin and flesh. Blood flowed from all My limbs. Time after time I fell because of the pain caused by the blows to My manliness. My Body was in such a state that I resembled a monster more than a man. The features of My face had lost their shape; it was all swollen.

1. The thought of so many souls, who would later be inspired to follow My footsteps, consumed Me with Love.**

Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**5) The fatigue that I feel is so great and the Cross so heavy that halfway along the path, I fall from weakness. See how those inhuman men lift Me up in the most brutal manner. One grabs My arm, another pulls My clothes that are stuck to My wounds, tearing them open again… This one grabs Me by the neck, another by the hair; others discharge dreadful blows to My whole Body, with their fists, and even with their feet. The Cross falls upon Me and with its weight causes new wounds. My face is scraped by the stones in the road and the blood which runs down My face sticks to My eyes that are almost closed because of the blows they have received. The dust and the mud mingle with the blood and I am turned into the most repugnant of objects.

1. My Father sends Angels to help support Me so that My Body does not lose consciousness when it falls, so that the battle may not be won before its time and all My souls are lost.
2. I walk over the stones that destroy My feet. I stumble and fall time and time again. I look at both sides of the road, searching for the slightest look of love, of surrender, of union with My pain, but… I do not see anyone.
3. My children, you who follow in My footsteps, do not let go of your cross no matter how heavy it seems to you. Do it for Me because by carrying your cross, you will help Me carry Mine, and on the difficult path, you will find My Mother and the holy souls who will give you encouragement and comfort.**

Jesus to Catalina:

From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf

**4) "…In this profound pain which causes My sight to grow darker to the point that I can no longer see clearly those beings which I love and who remain at the foot of My agony, I know that Love has conquered, that it will conquer forever. **

Jesus to Catalina:

I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

**To redeem all of mankind, a child’s cry, a moan, a single tear of Mine would have been enough… Would you have understood My Love in the same way? If with so many great proofs you still take so long to accept it, what would have caused you to believe in My Love, if I had limited Myself to what seemed paltry? …

It is because of all this that you must believe in Love, principally, in My Love …

Only by going beyond the limit of “what is necessary” would many eyes be opened to My Love.**

Continued here if you wish to read a bit more - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12128207&postcount=15

Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

For more information regarding these short booklets please read this - youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf)

Jesus to St Margaret-Mary Alacoque -

"Behold this Heart which has loved men so much that it has spared nothing, even to exhausting and consuming itself in order to testify to them it’s love."

Sacred Heart Image (St Margaret-Mary Alacoque) -

http://s7.postimg.org/4jx43bm1n/Christ_7.jpg

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Thank you for reading
Josh

It’s the other way around, I must thank you!

 

[oldcelt]

Josh,

I have forgotten nothing…simply re-examined the visible facts in our world. The ecstatic visions of anyone are very much open to scrutiny. I think that the first translation of your version of the passion happened in the late 20th century. It was probably great for Catalina…it means little to me and those like me who have truly dug deeper into the writings…

John

 

[josh987654321]

It’s the other way around, I must thank you!

Thank you.

Josh,

I have forgotten nothing…simply re-examined the visible facts in our world.

But Christ is not of this world, so how can you find Him by focusing on this world? The world rejected Him and had Him Crucified.

The ecstatic visions of anyone are very much open to scrutiny. I think that the first translation of your version of the passion happened in the late 20th century. It was probably great for Catalina…it means little to me and those like me who have truly dug deeper into the writings…

John

I know it to be true because of the fruits they produce.

Luke7:35
35 Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

You say you have dug deep into them, but may I ask, have you just listened and listened? or have you heard and understood? As a priest once said in His homily, there is a difference between listening and hearing.

Matthew 13:10-15
*10 Jesus’ disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you use nothing but stories when you speak to the people?” …

I use stories when I speak to them because when they look, they cannot see, and when they listen, they cannot hear or understand…

just as the prophet Isaiah had said,

“These people will listen and listen, but never understand. They will look and look, but never see. 15 All of them have stubborn minds! Their ears are stopped up, and their eyes are covered. They cannot see or hear or understand. If they could, they would turn to me, and I would heal them.”*
Jesus to Catalina:

The Great Crusade of Salvation - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CS-Reg.pdf

**2) It is an unfathomable mystery that I may want to manifest Myself through a creature to the man of today… How many human mysteries you come to know only from their fruits, from their effects! You do not doubt only because you see their effects and not the causes. Well, the mystery consists in that the effects are known and discerned as authentic by the guarantee demonstrated in the fact that they produce movement of souls towards Me.

1. My Words are the same. Moreover, I have been repeating them throughout the ages to dozens of children and there are still many who do not recognize Me, who analyze, who look for faults… How blind are they! **

Matthew 16:13-15
*13 When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, “What do people say about the Son of Man?”

14 The disciples answered, “Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet.”

15 Then Jesus asked them, “But who do you say I am?”*

Matthew 11:2-6
*2 John was in prison when he heard what Christ was doing. So John sent some of his followers 3 to ask Jesus, “Are you the one we should be looking for? Or must we wait for someone else?”

4 Jesus answered, “Go and tell John what you have heard and seen. 5 The blind are now able to see, and the lame can walk. People with leprosy are being healed, and the deaf can hear. The dead are raised to life, and the poor are hearing the good news. 6 God will bless everyone who doesn’t reject me because of what I do.”*

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[EWSOCKEY]

Everything you mention,the omniscient Christian God knew in advance and permitted to occur. There is simply no way around it if all the powers attributed to that God are real.

But of course God knows everything, in advance of its happening. So God planned everything just as it turned out.

God did not will evil, but did will to allow it to happen. St. Thomas Aquinas points out that an all powerful, all loving God could only allow evil if it was a means to a greater good than would be possible without it. The fall of Satan and Adam led to the Incarnation of God as Man, the joining of God physically with His beloved people.

Allowing the innocent to suffer – children and others – is a consequence of allowing angels and men free will according to God’s plan for the universe. Giving the good and innocent eternal bliss is the reward that far surpasses any possible suffering (and God Himself underwent the greatest possible suffering – suffering that would have killed any other human being long before being nailed to the Cross – normally a man would die just from the scourging alone, as the British found out when flogging sailors for various offenses).

In the Book of Job in the Bible God asked Job what he though gave him the wisdom to dispute with God about the justice of suffering of the innocent. If we believe the Gospel then we are certain God has a plan for the suffering of the innocent that is just and merciful, and that we will see and agree with (and the suffering innocent will see and agree with) when we get to heaven.

 

[oldcelt]

But of course God knows everything, in advance of its happening. So God planned everything just as it turned out.

God did not will evil, but did will to allow it to happen. St. Thomas Aquinas points out that an all powerful, all loving God could only allow evil if it was a means to a greater good than would be possible without it. The fall of Satan and Adam led to the Incarnation of God as Man, the joining of God physically with His beloved people.

Allowing the innocent to suffer – children and others – is a consequence of allowing angels and men free will according to God’s plan for the universe. Giving the good and innocent eternal bliss is the reward that far surpasses any possible suffering (and God Himself underwent the greatest possible suffering – suffering that would have killed any other human being long before being nailed to the Cross – normally a man would die just from the scourging alone, as the British found out when flogging sailors for various offenses).

In the Book of Job in the Bible God asked Job what he though gave him the wisdom to dispute with God about the justice of suffering of the innocent. If we believe the Gospel then we are certain God has a plan for the suffering of the innocent that is just and merciful, and that we will see and agree with (and the suffering innocent will see and agree with) when we get to heaven.

To allow such things when you have the capability to stop them is amoral. No writings, beliefs or tales can get around that simple fact. If I were to allow such things when I could prevent them, the Christian God would condemn me eternally.

 

[josh987654321]

.

May I ask oldcelt, have you heard of a book called ‘The Problem of Pain’ by C.S. Lewis?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[fred_conty]

To allow such things when you have the capability to stop them is amoral. No writings, beliefs or tales can get around that simple fact. If I were to allow such things when I could prevent them, the Christian God would condemn me eternally.

“To allow such things when you have the capability to stop them is amoral.”

God dosen’t have morals. Only creatures have morals. For morals are laws, and God is above all laws for he is the author of laws. We follow laws and when we don’t, then we sin thru which pain is introduced. God is all holy without sin.

It may seem to us as we see things that God must follow his own laws, but he is outside of those laws which were set for creation to run things properly. Laws were made so that all creation, including society, may function holistically.

Why there is so much amorality is that man sins and violates his own proper functioning. God has not violated anything, but since we have created a sesspool of violence and crime from the beginning which has brought about suffering, God in his graciousness promised to help us and did thru his own beloved Son.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[EWSOCKEY]

To allow such things when you have the capability to stop them is amoral. No writings, beliefs or tales can get around that simple fact. If I were to allow such things when I could prevent them, the Christian God would condemn me eternally.

You are referring to God as if He were nothing else than an immensely powerful human being. God created human beings, and gave us the moral laws as instructions on how to live a properly human life. They have to do with our obligations toward God and toward our fellow human beings. Obviously moral laws regarding proper human activity towards God and other human beings do not apply to God.

Suffering in itself is neither moral nor immoral. Morality only applies to whether one intends good or evil. A Marine drill sergeant puts young men through a lot of serious suffering, as does an Olympic coach. A serious athlete puts himself or herself through suffering in order to achieve physical excellence. There’s nothing immoral about that; on the contrary, the refusal of a soldier or athlete to follow a painful exercise routine may itself be immoral.

A Christian begins with admitting the clear evidence that God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful and that He is supremely Good. We then look at human suffering in the light of our faith and find we can make sense of it. But even if we couldn’t make sense of suffering, we would still believe what the clear evidence shows: God is Good. You seem to begin with the dilemma or mystery of evil and then construct your idea of God from that, as if the human intellect could solve every problem including passing judgment on God.

Athletes are willing to undergo considerable suffering, as St. Paul points out, in order to win a perishable prize. Heaven is a greater prize than any possible suffering on earth can lessen. The difficulties and questions that arise from the fact of human suffering do not change or put into question the objective facts about God.

 

[oldcelt]

You are referring to God as if He were nothing else than an immensely powerful human being. God created human beings, and gave us the moral laws as instructions on how to live a properly human life. They have to do with our obligations toward God and toward our fellow human beings. Obviously moral laws regarding proper human activity towards God and other human beings do not apply to God.

Suffering in itself is neither moral nor immoral. Morality only applies to whether one intends good or evil. A Marine drill sergeant puts young men through a lot of serious suffering, as does an Olympic coach. A serious athlete puts himself or herself through suffering in order to achieve physical excellence. There’s nothing immoral about that; on the contrary, the refusal of a soldier or athlete to follow a painful exercise routine may itself be immoral.

A Christian begins with admitting the clear evidence that God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful and that He is supremely Good. **We then look at human suffering in the light of our faith and find we can make sense of it. But even if we couldn’t make sense of suffering, we would still believe what the clear evidence shows: God is Good. **You seem to begin with the dilemma or mystery of evil and then construct your idea of God from that, as if the human intellect could solve every problem including passing judgment on God.

Athletes are willing to undergo considerable suffering, as St. Paul points out, in order to win a perishable prize. Heaven is a greater prize than any possible suffering on earth can lessen. The difficulties and questions that arise from the fact of human suffering do not change or put into question the objective facts about God.

Much of what you have said I obviously no longer believe. The bolded part could be the biggest. As I said, no writings, rationalizations, morality tales, or excuses can get by the fact that if the Christian God behaves as is written, His behavior is discriminatory and arbitrary…and that ain’t good.
My advice to everyone here is to spend some time on the sites related to children dying of horrid diseases. If the Christian God Knew this was going to happen (omniscience), then why create them in the first place? If He didn’t know it was going to happen,why not stop it? (Omnipotence) There is no love or good in slaughtering a child, be it now or 2,000 years ago.

 

[oldcelt]

“To allow such things when you have the capability to stop them is amoral.”

God dosen’t have morals. Only creatures have morals. For morals are laws, and God is above all laws for he is the author of laws. We follow laws and when we don’t, then we sin thru which pain is introduced. God is all holy without sin.

It may seem to us as we see things that God must follow his own laws, but he is outside of those laws which were set for creation to run things properly. Laws were made so that all creation, including society, may function holistically.

Why there is so much amorality is that man sins and violates his own proper functioning. God has not violated anything, but since we have created a sesspool of violence and crime from the beginning which has brought about suffering, God in his graciousness promised to help us and did thru his own beloved Son.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

If God has no morals, then why is He seemingly so insistent that we do? Man is quite capable of developing standards of conduct. The least a loving-sinless God could do is to act like one. Not go about slaughtering the most defenseless or permitting such.

The only logical answer is that God does not intervene in creation. He started it and let it follow its course. I am here because of my parents…no higher power needed. I suffer because I am mortal and aging, and a bit unlucky. My suffering proves nothing positive, and the death of a four month old from cancer certainly does not.

 

[ericc]

If God has no morals, then why is He seemingly so insistent that we do? Man is quite capable of developing standards of conduct.

To protect us. Human beings are quite capable of the highest immoral behaviour. With no moral code, the law of the jungle seems to rule men. Actually man is the worst of animals. I do not know of animals delighting in pornography or committing abortion for the sake of freedom. Or delighting in torture.

Putting God on the stand and declaring him guilty based upon human standard of morals is a fruitless exercise.

The least a loving-sinless God could do is to act like one. Not go about slaughtering the most defenseless or permitting such.

He does. Sure he “kills” everyone since everyone must die. Most objections are to timing and manner. It appears God is evil when timing and manner of death are not to one liking. Since he did not tell you why he has to take someone away at an inopportune time or manner, one can try to guess and jump to one’s conclusion without God’s (name removed by moderator)uts. Of course the guilty verdict can be thrown about wantonly. Silence is not admission of guilt and he certainly doesn’t owe anyone an answer. God-blaming seems to be a convenient way out. Others blame fate. Some blame their ancestors (for bad luck or medical problems-DNA related).

The only logical answer is that God does not intervene in creation. He started it and let it follow its course.

That is not the only logical answer. It is only logical if answers are suitable(or not) to one’s POV. To the Jews, God came and interacted with their ancestors. 2000 years ago, to the Christians, God came and lived among us. Since then many others are convinced to have been touched by God or his servants. Many saints have personal encounters with God or via other channels e.g. Mary, angels etc. If one did not have such encounters, it does not prove that he didn’t intervene. He did, but we are not aware of his intervention. Or he think it is not necessary to appear in such a “flashy” fashion. None of us are privy as to the “method” how God runs the universe. Reminds me of the 5 blind men trying to described an elephant.

I am here because of my parents…no higher power needed. I suffer because I am mortal and aging, and a bit unlucky. My suffering proves nothing positive, and the death of a four month old from cancer certainly does not.

We all suffer. Whether it is a parent that passed away too early or a child dies. The question is whether we want to suffer eternally** despite** our temporal suffering.

 

[oldcelt]

To protect us. Human beings are quite capable of the highest immoral behaviour. With no moral code, the law of the jungle seems to rule men. Actually man is the worst of animals. I do not know of animals delighting in pornography or committing abortion for the sake of freedom. Or delighting in torture.

Putting God on the stand and declaring him guilty based upon human standard of morals is a fruitless exercise.

He does. Sure he “kills” everyone since everyone must die. Most objections are to timing and manner. It appears God is evil when timing and manner of death are not to one liking. Since he did not tell you why he has to take someone away at an inopportune time or manner, one can try to guess and jump to one’s conclusion without God’s (name removed by moderator)uts. Of course the guilty verdict can be thrown about wantonly. Silence is not admission of guilt and he certainly doesn’t owe anyone an answer. God-blaming seems to be a convenient way out. Others blame fate. Some blame their ancestors (for bad luck or medical problems-DNA related).

That is not the only logical answer. It is only logical if answers are suitable(or not) to one’s POV. To the Jews, God came and interacted with their ancestors. 2000 years ago, to the Christians, God came and lived among us. Since then many others are convinced to have been touched by God or his servants. Many saints have personal encounters with God or via other channels e.g. Mary, angels etc. If one did not have such encounters, it does not prove that he didn’t intervene. He did, but we are not aware of his intervention. Or he think it is not necessary to appear in such a “flashy” fashion. None of us are privy as to the “method” how God runs the universe. Reminds me of the 5 blind men trying to described an elephant.

We all suffer. Whether it is a parent that passed away too early or a child dies. The question is whether we want to suffer eternally** despite** our temporal suffering.

I just believe in a more compassionate Deity now…in this reality. Creating a person so they can die hideously four months later…I have the website…is something out of a horror novel…and totally without a reasonable purpose. There is no explanation, no excuse that is adequate.I’m just ashamed that it took me so long to figure that out.

 

[tonyrey]

If God has no morals, then why is He seemingly so insistent that we do? Man is quite capable of developing standards of conduct. The least a loving-sinless God could do is to act like one. Not go about slaughtering the most defenseless or permitting such.

“slaughter” is an emotive term which is not only false but unrealistic considering that no one has ever explained how a physical world could be totally free of accidents and misfortunes.

The only logical answer is that God does not intervene in creation.

It is only logical when based on the false premise that a physical world could be totally free of accidents and misfortunes.

He started it and let it follow its course. I am here because of my parents…no higher power needed.

Another false statement because the power to procreate is not self-explanatory.

I suffer because I am mortal and aging, and a bit unlucky.

Do you expect to be immortal and totally immune to “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”? Shakespeare’s view is incomparably more realistic.

My suffering proves nothing positive, and the death of a four month old from cancer certainly does not.

Neither your suffering nor the death of a day old child has any significance unless you explain how all such misfortunes could be prevented…

 

[tonyrey]

I just believe in a more compassionate Deity now…in this reality. Creating a person so they can die hideously four months later…I have the website…is something out of a horror novel…and totally without a reasonable purpose. There is no explanation, no excuse that is adequate.I’m just ashamed that it took me so long to figure that out.

A more compassionate Deity who does precisely** nothing** to alleviate the suffering of His children! That is undoubtedly an excellent plot for a horror story…