How could a moral God allow suffering?

[MarkInOregon]

My advice to everyone here is to spend some time on the sites related to children dying of horrid diseases. If the Christian God Knew this was going to happen (omniscience), then why create them in the first place? If He didn’t know it was going to happen,why not stop it? (Omnipotence) There is no love or good in slaughtering a child, be it now or 2,000 years ago.

Do you really think that no Christians have experience with children dying of horrid diseases? That your the only one who has seen this? It would seem obvious that others have seen this and not lost their faith. You act as if you’re the only one who has seen great suffering and that your conclusion is the only possible one–but human experience shows that this is not the case. So now we equate death in the fallen world with slaughter?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I just believe in a more compassionate Deity now…in this reality. Creating a person so they can die hideously four months later…I have the website…is something out of a horror novel…and totally without a reasonable purpose. There is no explanation, no excuse that is adequate.I’m just ashamed that it took me so long to figure that out.

How exactly is the diety you believe in now more compassionate? You’ve described a diety who simply created and has no more involvement in his creation–is that compassionate? What do you mean by compassion? In your belief is it better to have never lived than to have lived briefly–even if in great suffering–and then to spend eternity in heaven–whatever that might be like–is that what you are saying above–I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[oldcelt]

How exactly is the diety you believe in now more compassionate? You’ve described a diety who simply created and has no more involvement in his creation–is that compassionate? What do you mean by compassion? In your belief is it better to have never lived than to have lived briefly–even if in great suffering–and then to spend eternity in heaven–whatever that might be like–is that what you are saying above–I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

You are not putting words in my mouth. Life like that is not a gift…it is a curse that I won’t attribute to God. The Deist God has no involvement and possibly no knowledge of it. Far better to me than one who creates for a horrible death or eternal damnation.

In my belief this child’s unfortunate death is an act of nature and nothing more. No plan, no foreknowledge, just a terrible fact of life on this planet.

 

[oldcelt]

Do you really think that no Christians have experience with children dying of horrid diseases? That your the only one who has seen this? It would seem obvious that others have seen this and not lost their faith. You act as if you’re the only one who has seen great suffering and that your conclusion is the only possible one–but human experience shows that this is not the case. So now we equate death in the fallen world with slaughter?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

If I am leaving that impression I apologize, but I do tire of hearing people say it is in God’s plan or He will make some greater good from it. I’ve never believed that, even as a young and faithful Catholic. And yes, I do equate the Death of the Innocents, be it one or thousands with slaughter if there is a God who could prevent it.

 

[oldcelt]

Give 50 different people 50 bibles and ask them to interpret what they have read. See how many ‘different’ interpretations you will get!! This is dangerous!

Your ideas are flawed massively!

Jesus started the Catholic church. Tradition comes from Jesus. It has come down through time. Jesus said that Peter is the rock and upon that rock he would build his church! Who better to ‘interpret’ the bible than the church?

My ideas are not massively flawed, but they are a great threat to those who want to control people’s minds. Different interpretations are the fault of the document(s), not the people. Maybe more would realize just how deeply flawed the bible is if they read it on their own. They might also recognize the true nature of the Abrahamic/Christian God, and all-loving is not it.
There are billions of intelligent, reasonable people who do not believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church, or anything for that matter. Some, like myself, believe he had some wise teachings.

 

[ericc]

Eric,

I think you have misunderstood me almost entirely. I have done my best to understand all the versions of God. After many years of study, I arrived where I am. Could I be wrong…of course. We all may be…but the readings and teachings of Christianity are, to me, inconsistent and geared toward fear.
I have more respect for God than to believe that.

I really, really hope I have misunderstood you Sir! But when I saw your post on this Thread: Where was God when my wife died

I’m sorry my friend, but He was nowhere to be found. Our lives are ours…the unfortunate death of your wife was a consequence of our life here. I know that seems cold and harsh, but I truly believe it to be true.

We are all born as a result of our parent’s union…we all die as a result of the chances of life. Truly read what is written and see which scenario makes most sense.

I see attempts to lead our fellow brother/sister in Christ down the road of despair. I see it fit to question whether your solution is any more moral than the Christian response. Hence, my rather strong objection to your deist God. It is one thing to believe oneself in a god you have theorized exist but leading others without having to prove that the deist god exist I think needs to be challenged.

The Bible is clear that for those who once believed but now don’t , the punishment is more severe. Leading people astray from the Christian God will multiply your guilt. Therefore, I sincerely urged you to rethink your views on the Christian God. Open your heart to him. Ask for forgiveness. Ask for understanding from the Holy Spirit. Ask for wisdom. What you don’t understand doesn’t mean He is guilty of immoral acts/non-acts. We are all limited in our knowledge of God. Concluding A (Christian God) is no good for me, therefore B (deist god) exist is not a logical conclusion. B is an impossibility by definition. Do NOT offer B as a solution. Even if you do not agree with A, saying “I don’t know” is a valid and truthful answer. And it is a fact too that we have insufficient knowledge. Why would one make judgement based upon a serious lack of knowledge and with the consequences being eternal? It is not a light matter. Please, do reflect on this. Go back to the origin where you begin to doubt the Christian God. Is it choosing between what God said and what you prefer to be?

I will pray for you.

 

[oldcelt]

I really, really hope I have misunderstood you Sir! But when I saw your post on this Thread: Where was God when my wife died

I see attempts to lead our fellow brother/sister in Christ down the road of despair. I see it fit to question whether your solution is any more moral than the Christian response. Hence, my rather strong objection to your deist God. It is one thing to believe oneself in a god you have theorized exist but leading others without having to prove that the deist god exist I think needs to be challenged.

The Bible is clear that for those who once believed but now don’t , the punishment is more severe. Leading people astray from the Christian God will multiply your guilt. Therefore, I sincerely urged you to rethink your views on the Christian God. Open your heart to him. Ask for forgiveness. Ask for understanding from the Holy Spirit. Ask for wisdom. What you don’t understand doesn’t mean He is guilty of immoral acts/non-acts. We are all limited in our knowledge of God. Concluding A (Christian God) is no good for me, therefore B (deist god) exist is not a logical conclusion. B is an impossibility by definition. Do NOT offer B as a solution. Even if you do not agree with A, saying “I don’t know” is a valid and truthful answer. And it is a fact too that we have insufficient knowledge. Why would one make judgement based upon a serious lack of knowledge and with the consequences being eternal? It is not a light matter. Please, do reflect on this. Go back to the origin where you begin to doubt the Christian God. Is it choosing between what God said and what you prefer to be?

I will pray for you.

I can assure you that I did not arrive where I am lightly. It was after many years of searching and questioning. If I had thought it to be a light matter I would have probably had just been nothing. The Deist God makes sense in line with science and nature. What I do understand is what convinced me that my previous beliefs were wrong…that what I had been taught and what I read did not correspond with what was observable.
My reply to the poor gentleman in the other thread was made because he was blaming God for what had happened, and I didn’t want him to feel that way. This is a beautiful, but occasionally painful world for which I thank God every day, even though I don’t believe He directly created it or us.
Your statement about the punishment being more severe is a bit strange considering that eternal hell fire seems pretty rough to start with and I have to say sounds like the things you hear radical Muslims saying to converted Christians. So far as any of us proving anything, you surely know that such a thing is an impossibility. We must have faith in whatever version of God we believe in…faith

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

I Sometimes wonder if Humanity is just one big Experiment ,
Being peered at through a Microscope ,by whom ever, just to see if this idea of having
A. Species of humans will actually work out,and accomplish something,

 

[tonyrey]

I Sometimes wonder if Humanity is just one big Experiment ,
Being peered at through a Microscope ,by whom ever, just to see if this idea of having
A. Species of humans will actually work out,and accomplish something,

A question that has already been answered - notably by a person in the Middle East…

 

[tonyrey]

I can assure you that I did not arrive where I am lightly. It was after many years of searching and questioning. If I had thought it to be a light matter I would have probably had just been nothing. The Deist God makes sense in line with science and nature. What I do understand is what convinced me that my previous beliefs were wrong…that what I had been taught and what I read did not correspond with what was observable.
My reply to the poor gentleman in the other thread was made because he was blaming God for what had happened, and I didn’t want him to feel that way. This is a beautiful, but occasionally painful world for which I thank God every day, even though I don’t believe He directly created it or us.
Your statement about the punishment being more severe is a bit strange considering that eternal hell fire seems pretty rough to start with and I have to say sounds like the things you hear radical Muslims saying to converted Christians. So far as any of us proving anything, you surely know that such a thing is an impossibility. We must have faith in whatever version of God we believe in…faith

Including a God who is worthless…

 

[tonyrey]

… There are billions of intelligent, reasonable people who do not believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church, or anything for that matter. Some, like myself, believe he had some wise teachings.

“some” is rather condescending… Can you specify some foolish teachings?

 

[oldcelt]

“some” is rather condescending… Can you specify some foolish teachings?

And worthless isn’t condescending? No Tony, I don’t think I will…suffice it to say that we don’t recognize his deity, but like his general teachings.

 

[oldcelt]

I Sometimes wonder if Humanity is just one big Experiment ,
Being peered at through a Microscope ,by whom ever, just to see if this idea of having
A. Species of humans will actually work out,and accomplish something,

That has been suggested and is certainly not an impossibility. Kind of the scientists in a blind idea.

 

[oldcelt]

Including a God who is worthless…

He began all creation…we should all be so worthless.

 

[LaMBS]

How does your world view prove that God does? I believe that God has never intervened here on Earth and I do not believe in miracles and those who believe in divine intervention are free to do so. I have no quarrel with the believer, just some of the beliefs.

Because the transcendent is man’s highest need does not mean we’re going to get it. That is why people have been creating gods and religions since the dawn of man. Because they want to hear but aren’t. Or are they all right?
BTW, man most certainly does create or we wouldn’t be communicating. We may not start entire universes, but we do create. What about children?

Man and woman contribute a small amount of already created cellular matter which then may or may not (not under their control) unite to begin the naturally created process of procreation (again not under their control) and the physical aspects of the child are developed within the woman’s created womb. It is not clear whether the soul is evolved in this fashion (secondary cause of God) or through the direct intervention of God as the soul is outside the physical realm.

Language cannot be developed independently. A minimum of 2 minds must hold the same thought at the same time, realize that they hold that same thought at that same time and then agree to assign a particular symbol to that thought. To become a part of a particular lexicon many minds must go through this process. The thought which is the seed of the new word is recognition of something in or of the created universe, the minds which hold those thoughts were created, the desire to communicate is an attribute of created men. Language is something that has developed according to the nature of created man; it is a part of the higher nature of man, created solely by man no more than the cells regenerating within him were created by him.

I agree that man will not “get” transcendence; he must receive it and it has been given him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[EWSOCKEY]

Dear Oldcelt, it appears that you do not believe in heaven. You argue as if you believe this life on earth is all there is.

Suffering on earth only makes sense if heaven exists, everlasting happiness that makes suffering on earth by comparison of no account whatsoever. If this earth is all there is, life makes no sense, since once it ends it is for the individual as if he or she never existed at all. Thus, the deist position justifies all manner of injustice and outrage, because there is no higher law or reward and punishment, from a god who doesn’t care!

The deist position needs to completely ignore the compelling evidence of miracles. You should read about Padre Pio, who lived in our own times and was investigated by scientists and doctors. You should read about the miracles at Lourdes, investigated by doctors of all religions and no religion. You should read about the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917, witnessed by 70,000 people including agnostic newspaper reporters, judges, lawyers and college professors.

God gives us sufficient evidence of His existence and of His love and care for us as His children. Granted His existence, the only difficulty is in understanding suffering, which God tells us is caused by man, not by Him. But it is not reasonable to deny objective facts because of difficulties in understanding them.
-Bill

 

[oldcelt]

Dear Oldcelt, it appears that you do not believe in heaven. You argue as if you believe this life on earth is all there is.

Suffering on earth only makes sense if heaven exists, everlasting happiness that makes suffering on earth by comparison of no account whatsoever. If this earth is all there is, life makes no sense, since once it ends it is for the individual as if he or she never existed at all. Thus, the deist position justifies all manner of injustice and outrage, because there is no higher law or reward and punishment, from a god who doesn’t care!

The deist position needs to completely ignore the compelling evidence of miracles. You should read about Padre Pio, who lived in our own times and was investigated by scientists and doctors. You should read about the miracles at Lourdes, investigated by doctors of all religions and no religion. You should read about the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917, witnessed by 70,000 people including agnostic newspaper reporters, judges, lawyers and college professors.

God gives us sufficient evidence of His existence and of His love and care for us as His children. Granted His existence, the only difficulty is in understanding suffering, which God tells us is caused by man, not by Him. But it is not reasonable to deny objective facts because of difficulties in understanding them.
-Bill

What you call objective facts are far from that in the eyes of many investigators. I have read and studied both cases you mentioned. Saint PIO is interesting, but even his supposed bilocation has other explanations…same with Fatima. How about the incorruptibles, the solid, then liquid bloods, the shroud and so on…Deists, when faced with something that is difficult to explain, do not jump to the supernatural.
For example, I’ve been to Gettysburg hundreds of times and have yet to see a ghost. I’ve had some strange experiences, so should I believe in ghosts? BTW, ghost walks are the single biggest money-maker there because people don’t look at the facts.

Deists are uncertain of an afterlife and don’t claim to know. There are some possibilities. Suffering on Earth only makes sense if a loving God has no power to stop it. To me, anything else is the height of illogic.

Oh…Deists have the same moral code and believe in the same laws as most people. We excuse no injustices or suffering but try to do something them now.

 

[ajecphotos]

Obviously you dont believe in the God of the Bible. The one and true God. Our creator who sent his son to die for our sins etc.

So, what God do you believe in?

 

[oldcelt]

Obviously you dont believe in the God of the Bible. The one and true God. Our creator who sent his son to die for our sins etc.

So, what God do you believe in?

The God that began creation.

 

[ajecphotos]

The God that began creation.

Who is?