How could a moral God allow suffering?

[oldcelt]

Originally Posted by oldcelt

I am truely sorry about your friend. It is very painful and I hope you will accept my deepest concern for your loss.

But there is right there a problem. Since the deist god is indifferent, distant, and unavailable, prayer for a deceased love one is not possible since he doesn’t feel or even know anything about our deceased loved ones. To me that is brutal and unfeeling. It is one thing to talk about suffering and pain in general and about others, but it is very excruciating when death hits very near to us.

I merely say this to point out that death and suffering and pain are realities we cannot escape even tho we may try to do so. But for one god there is no solution, but for another there is a solution. The God who recognizes suffering and gives us an ultimate way out and a deep worthwhile meaning to suffering.

The deist god is distant and aloof and so he won’t or is too weak to give an explaination. The God of truth has revealed himself to mankind and to certain individuals in order to let us know just what has happened to cause so much misery, and to tell us how it can end on a happy note. If a person cannot accept words, then they should look at the effects…events that just cannot be rationalized away by any fair minded man.

Where man’s writings may seem to fail, the clearity of God’s works do not.

And if God seems hostile on numerous occasions, isn’t that better than to have a god who is silent and uncaring, who is cold and indifferent. I would rather have someone tell me to my face what is wrong than to have that person cold shoulder me and say nothing,leaving me in a freezer.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

Thank you for your condolences Fred…they are truly appreciated.

Regarding Pat’s death, I take great comfort in knowing (in my belief), that it was unplanned, no deity was involved, and she is at peace. But her loss certainly packs a sting.

 

[arklawler]

Suffering is something that I have been affected by since seeing it in my youth. I am.not afraid of the word mystery in my Christian faith, and I must use it here. Many theories have been put forward that I have read, searching for an answer, none have been satisfactory. But the biggest thing as a Christian, is that I look to the fact that the eternal, unfathomable God became man, and then redeemed us by willingly dying a most cruel and tortuous death for our salvation. Certainly, this adds even more mystery, but to me it says, not here, but then you will understand.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This is a classic theological question, one that I have never had properly answered, I’m sure it’s been asked before but I’ll try to add my own spin to it, let’s get started!
This question tends to go along the lines of
" Look at all the grief and misery in the world! How could God allow all this suffering, how could he allow rape and murder?!?"
Which usually receives the following answer, “Well you see, suffering exists because God allows humanity to have free will, if there is no suffering, then there is no free will, we would be mindless robots!”

However I have some problems with that answer which I will summarize into two main critiques.

One, this doesn’t explain gratuitous suffering or suffering without cause.

For example some babies are born with cancer or other serious diseases through absolutely no fault of their own or anyone else’s. So would God be interfering with free will if he cured the babies of their disease? Or what about victims of hurricanes or tsunamis or other naturally occurring tragedies? What do unfortunate random circumstances have to do with free will? Why couldn’t God save these people?

Two, free will is overrated

Let’s say a woman is about to be raped, God has the power to stop it, but chooses not to because the rapist has free will. I can understand this point of view as free will is very valuable and is one of the characteristics of being human. But what about the free will of the woman? She obviously doesn’t want to get raped, so if God doesn’t interfere, someone’s free will is going to get violated anyway, so why not interfere on the side of the woman? This sort of makes me think that God is choosing the free will of a rapist over the well-being of an innocent woman, in what way could that possibly be moral?

Also it could be argued this opens up a paradox.
God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil

I am very interested to see your responses!

One theory you forgot. Just imagine how bad things would be if there were no God or if God just sat in his heaven and left us utterly at our own devices!

Linus2nd

 

[tonyrey]

… Personally, I prefer a god who doesn’t give a hoot to one that, according to man’s writings, has been openly hostile on numerous occasions.

“man’s writings” do not account for Christ’s teaching that we should love our enemies.

You claim to believe in love but in practice you regard it as a fantasy. A loveless God is not only worthless but non-existent!

 

[tonyrey]

One theory you forgot. Just imagine how bad things would be if there were no God or if God just sat in his heaven and left us utterly at our own devices!

Linus2nd

Indeed! In spite of human ignorance, selfishness and callousness the world could be far, far worse than it is…

 

[tonyrey]

Suffering is something that I have been affected by since seeing it in my youth. I am.not afraid of the word mystery in my Christian faith, and I must use it here. Many theories have been put forward that I have read, searching for an answer, none have been satisfactory. But the biggest thing as a Christian, is that I look to the fact that the eternal, unfathomable God became man, and then redeemed us by willingly dying a most cruel and tortuous death for our salvation. Certainly, this adds even more mystery, but to me it says, not here, but then you will understand.

Jesus Himself is not a mystery because He has shown us that love is indestructible and more powerful than anything else.

 

[opusAquinas]

This is a classic theological question, one that I have never had properly answered, I’m sure it’s been asked before but I’ll try to add my own spin to it, let’s get started!
This question tends to go along the lines of
" Look at all the grief and misery in the world! How could God allow all this suffering, how could he allow rape and murder?!?"
Which usually receives the following answer, “Well you see, suffering exists because God allows humanity to have free will, if there is no suffering, then there is no free will, we would be mindless robots!”

However I have some problems with that answer which I will summarize into two main critiques.

One, this doesn’t explain gratuitous suffering or suffering without cause.

For example some babies are born with cancer or other serious diseases through absolutely no fault of their own or anyone else’s. So would God be interfering with free will if he cured the babies of their disease? Or what about victims of hurricanes or tsunamis or other naturally occurring tragedies? What do unfortunate random circumstances have to do with free will? Why couldn’t God save these people?

Two, free will is overrated

Let’s say a woman is about to be raped, God has the power to stop it, but chooses not to because the rapist has free will. I can understand this point of view as free will is very valuable and is one of the characteristics of being human. But what about the free will of the woman? She obviously doesn’t want to get raped, so if God doesn’t interfere, someone’s free will is going to get violated anyway, so why not interfere on the side of the woman? This sort of makes me think that God is choosing the free will of a rapist over the well-being of an innocent woman, in what way could that possibly be moral?

Also it could be argued this opens up a paradox.
God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil

I am very interested to see your responses!

We were thrown of paradise and are mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Get it?

Adam and Eve stood in for ALL humanity.

[He permits evil by respecting our free will. A greater good will come of it because He has a plan: just like He created the Jewish people, and planned His arrival, genetically engineering Our Blessed Mother over centuries etc. etc. etc.]

You might ask about the innocent woman being raped or the innocent child dying of a disease. All are being punished. Some are treated more mercifully than others.

***Our Lord Jesus Christ is going to save those that believe in Him and damn those who reject Him. ***

What about those innocent people who don’t believe? What about the kind Muslim or Jew who reject our Lord? Study it.

 

[tonyrey]

… Since the deist god is indifferent, distant, and unavailable, prayer for a deceased love one is not possible since he doesn’t feel or even know anything about our deceased loved ones. To me that is brutal and unfeeling. It is one thing to talk about suffering and pain in general and about others, but it is very excruciating when death hits very near to us.

I merely say this to point out that death and suffering and pain are realities we cannot escape even tho we may try to do so. But for one god there is no solution, but for another there is a solution. The God who recognizes suffering and gives us an ultimate way out and a deep worthwhile meaning to suffering.

The deist god is distant and aloof and so he won’t or is too weak to give an explaination. The God of truth has revealed himself to mankind and to certain individuals in order to let us know just what has happened to cause so much misery, and to tell us how it can end on a happy note. If a person cannot accept words, then they should look at the effects…events that just cannot be rationalized away by any fair minded man.

Where man’s writings may seem to fail, the clearity of God’s works do not.

And if God seems hostile on numerous occasions, isn’t that better than to have a god who is silent and uncaring, who is cold and indifferent. I would rather have someone tell me to my face what is wrong than to have that person cold shoulder me and say nothing, leaving me in a freezer…

:clapping: Diametrically opposed to the God revealed by Jesus:

Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labour or spin. **Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendour was dressed like one of these. **If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you – you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, “What shall we eat?” or “What shall we drink?” or “What shall we wear?” For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matthew 6:25-34

 

[ericc]

What about just going out like a light bulb? That, at least, is observable. My friend who just passed…where is she? Maybe Pat’s consciousness remains and she is in a dream-like state, or maybe she is just in the ground.

Sorry to hear that. Like what I said in a prior post, we blame XYZ if someone dear to us left us in an untimely manner or method. If not today, or next year or a decade from now, we never have the “right” time to go. I would think that the right time for someone to go is when we don’t want them around anymore. When they have become a burden or there is no more love. Sounds wicked isn’t it? So why the blame game for something inevitable? Instead of blaming, get ourselves ready because we never know when we are going to meet our Maker. Blaming God really has no value add other than a mechanism for anger management.

We have an explanation in our faith. Judgement is immediate. We don’t have to guess. We don’t know the destination only. That is between the deceased and God. It is a private matter between creator and the created. Because he will judge you based upon what one has done. You will know all the reasons for passing or failing.

My God took just as much time to explain himself as yours…none. Man has taken a lot of time trying to rationalize what we see. But, that doesn’t prove a thing.
Personally, I prefer a god who doesn’t give a hoot to one that, according to man’s writings, has been openly hostile on numerous occasions.

God doesn’t owe anyone an explanation, especially a third party. Like I said previously, purely between creator and the created. Matthew 22:30. In heaven there is no marriage and earthly unions therefore comes to naught. So we have no grounds to demand a response from God.

 

[rinnie]

What about just going out like a light bulb? That, at least, is observable. My friend who just passed…where is she? Maybe Pat’s consciousness remains and she is in a dream-like state, or maybe she is just in the ground.
My God took just as much time to explain himself as yours…none. Man has taken a lot of time trying to rationalize what we see. But, that doesn’t prove a thing.
Personally, I prefer a god who doesn’t give a hoot to one that, according to man’s writings, has been openly hostile on numerous occasions.

And we as Catholic’s, do prefer our God just the way he is Perfect.

We know what happens after death, we have a God who explained to us there is no death of the soul only death of the body. It is our soul that rises and if we are lucky and obey his commands meet him and have eternal life with him in heaven.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you for your condolences Fred…they are truly appreciated.

Regarding Pat’s death, I take great comfort in knowing (in my belief), that it was unplanned, no deity was involved, and she is at peace. But her loss certainly packs a sting.

First I would like you to know I carry you in my heart for your loss. It is terrible to lose someone you love so much.

My Father and Brother I carry their loss with me everyday. But knowing they are in eternal happiness and we will be together someday helps me a lot.

I look to the next world the perfect world where there will be no loss, suffering etc. The perfect world without sin or sorrow.

Loss is always hard to deal with no matter how strong your faith is, at times it can actually take away peoples faith at times, even the most faithful.

Suffering is a great mystery to us. But God seems to bring out something good in us everytime we suffer. Maybe if we didn’t have it we could never truly understand the suffering of others. Who knows.

But it sure makes us more understanding of others pain when we have encountered it that’s for sure.

I truly have come to believe that it is suffering that makes heaven what it truly is. Heaven has no sin, no suffering. Sin brings on suffering, sometimes of the sinner, sometimes innocent people because of the sinner.

But I believe that’s why we become Saints in heaven, because we see what that sin has caused either in our lives or others or both. And that’s our great lesson in this world. Nothing is worth hurting others to get.

Sin causes suffering. Jesus taught us that. IF we didn’t sin he would not have had to die. But he died because of Sin our sin. Maybe we will all learn someday to not sin, because it causes suffering of the world.

I see people who continue to sin and hurt others, I am sure you have also, and they don’t seem to suffer the innocent do. That is what I thing the question of this thread is.

But God allows suffering because of free will, and suffering is caused by someone who uses that free will to sin and become selfish and quit worrying about others, and think only of themselves.

 

[oldcelt]

One theory you forgot. Just imagine how bad things would be if there were no God or if God just sat in his heaven and left us utterly at our own devices!

Linus2nd

I believe that is precisely what we have. We truly have free will because God does not impose any plan on us. Far better to me than the slaughter’s recorded in the OT and NT under a God who is actively intervening in our world.

Someone above also says that a raped woman or a dying child are both being punished…wow…and people would actually worship that type of god?

 

[oldcelt]

And we as Catholic’s, do prefer our God just the way he is Perfect.

We know what happens after death, we have a God who explained to us there is no death of the soul only death of the body. It is our soul that rises and if we are lucky and obey his commands meet him and have eternal life with him in heaven.

As I keep reminding people…you believe these things to be true through faith. I, believe quite differently, through faith. Neither of us has one scintilla of actual proof because God is unobservable. However, the world IS observable and if God is intervening, then He is doing so in an arbitrary and sometimes vicious manner.

 

[ajecphotos]

As I keep reminding people…you believe these things to be true through faith. I, believe quite differently, through faith. Neither of us has one scintilla of actual proof because God is unobservable. However, the world IS observable and if God is intervening, then He is doing so in an arbitrary and sometimes vicious manner.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[tonyrey]

** How** could God prevent **all **suffering? No one has ever answered that question…

 

[Aloysium]

As I keep reminding people…you believe these things to be true through faith. I, believe quite differently, through faith. Neither of us has one scintilla of actual proof because God is unobservable. However, the world IS observable and if God is intervening, then He is doing so in an arbitrary and sometimes vicious manner.

To paraphrase: you have your faith and Catholics have theirs.
However, as the poster above implies, you do not understand Christianity.
If you are interested in what the Church teaches, I would recommend starting with the Cathechism.

You definitely have an issue with the arbitrariness and viciousness of this world.
I’m not sure a god who creates a world of suffering and then takes off like the archetypal “dead-beat dad” would be preferable to a God who knows suffering and became one of us that we may transcend it.

I suspect that you may be acting out your conflict with God on these pages.
If this is the case, you need to work this out.
I do not wish to be a party to self-destructive behaviour. I will not reply to your posts if they simply present you with an opportunity to spew out venom.
This sounds rejecting, but it is not meant to be.

Seriously, the last words of your post sound like a distinct cry for help.

 

[oldcelt]

To paraphrase: you have your faith and Catholics have theirs.
However, as the poster above implies, you do not understand Christianity.
If you are interested in what the Church teaches, I would recommend starting with the Cathechism.

You definitely have an issue with the arbitrariness and viciousness of this world.
I’m not sure a god who creates a world of suffering and then takes off like the archetypal “dead-beat dad” would be preferable to a God who knows suffering and became one of us that we may transcend it.

I suspect that you may be acting out your conflict with God on these pages.
If this is the case, you need to work this out.
I do not wish to be a party to self-destructive behaviour. I will not reply to your posts if they simply present you with an opportunity to spew out venom.
This sounds rejecting, but it is not meant to be.

Seriously, the last words of your post sound like a distinct cry for help.

Which version of the catechism would you suggest. The last one I bought was two years ago, along with three concordances, seven bibles and so on.

What you call venom many see as reason and you forget that I do not believe that God is acting in this manner. I believe that the terrible things that happen here are a consequence of living on earth or our own doing. However, if one believes in a god who does control life on this planet, it is a very appropriate statement.

If you choose not to respond to me, I understand completely.

Be well

 

[oldcelt]

Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

That he existed and taught, yes. That he is divine, no.

 

[josh987654321]

That he existed and taught, yes. That he is divine, no.

And this man who existed and taught, may I ask, what do you think of Him? Who is He to you? A good man? A great moral teacher? A charlatan? A lunatic? A liar?

May I ask, what do you think of His teachings?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[fred_conty]

Which version of the catechism would you suggest. The last one I bought was two years ago, along with three concordances, seven bibles and so on.

What you call venom many see as reason and you forget that I do not believe that God is acting in this manner. I believe that the terrible things that happen here are a consequence of living on earth or our own doing. However, if one believes in a god who does control life on this planet, it is a very appropriate statement.

If you choose not to respond to me, I understand completely.

Be well

Originally by oldcelt
I believe that the terrible things that happen here are a consequence of living on earth or our own doing.

There ya go, we agree. And the book of Genesis explains this.

However, if one believes in a god who does control life on this planet, it is a very appropriate statement. (that God does the terrible things)

He is in control but gave us freedom to chose. This belongs to mankind just as much as breathing air. For so much in our life we are put in a position of making choices. At the gas station, whether regular or premium. On TV, which station to watch. What to have for breakfast…and so on.

Choices, freedom, is just a natural everyday part of men and women, and necessary. We couldn’t escape it even if we wanted to. God gave us this previlege to walk this planet and to let us chose what we want. God then allows and expects choices.

Yet he still remains in control because he set it up this way. If he had not made us the way he has, then he would have lost control by our choices. And this is what makes “the terrible things that happen here are a consequence of living on earth or our own doing.” It is the bad choices that make our lives unpleasant as well as that of others.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.