H
hazcompat
Guest
One who can answer would have to have been through both intimate friendship with God and then mortal sin. You do not want to know experientially the answer to this question!
Peace
Peace
How could Hell be worse than the desert of faith or the dark night of the soul?
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N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Well, for it to be mortal sin, the person has to reject God’s love. If I haven’t felt/known that love in some clear, tangible way, how can I really be said to have rejected it?
That doesn’t answer the question, though: were the examples like the consolation in the garden something that helped those people or hindered them? If it helped them, then we are faced with a contradiction.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Which is more heartbreaking:
a.) You are dying of a kidney disease, and your mother could donate a kidney to save you but doesn’t for some reason of her own which she will not share with you?
or
b.) Your illness is now too far gone for a transplant to save you, even if your mother were compatible?
Let’s even allow that the reason the situation is in condition B is because you refused to stop drinking, so your own bad decisions have pushed you beyond reach.
I’ve still got to go with A as the more heartbreaking, soul-numbing of the two.
a.) You are dying of a kidney disease, and your mother could donate a kidney to save you but doesn’t for some reason of her own which she will not share with you?
or
b.) Your illness is now too far gone for a transplant to save you, even if your mother were compatible?
Let’s even allow that the reason the situation is in condition B is because you refused to stop drinking, so your own bad decisions have pushed you beyond reach.
I’ve still got to go with A as the more heartbreaking, soul-numbing of the two.
A
Amandil
Guest
DNS, spiritual dryness or aridity is merely the sensible absence of the consolations of God, not the actual true and eternal separation from God, devoid of all hope, love, individuality, and cosolation which is hell.
In spiritual aridity you still do not lose God’s love and presence, it’s only that it is not sensible. It’s absent like a lover or a spouse is absent, the purpose of this absence is in the absence you yearn and hunger and desire God more deeply.
The problem is that most people when they experience this they think that God has abandoned them when He has not and they blame themselves thinking that it is because of some sins, or they try to fill the dryness and emptiness with things, sometimes even sinful things.
In spiritual aridity you still do not lose God’s love and presence, it’s only that it is not sensible. It’s absent like a lover or a spouse is absent, the purpose of this absence is in the absence you yearn and hunger and desire God more deeply.
The problem is that most people when they experience this they think that God has abandoned them when He has not and they blame themselves thinking that it is because of some sins, or they try to fill the dryness and emptiness with things, sometimes even sinful things.
A
Amandil
Guest
-]/-]
Do you not realize that all these things are not of your own making but are all forms of God’s love and presence on your life?
Do you not have breath? Do you not have clothes on your back? Food in your pantry? Do you not have the luxury of a computer to post on Catholic Answers?
Do you not realize that all these things are not of your own making but are all forms of God’s love and presence on your life?
G
GEddie
Guest
Well, if he couldn’t breathe, he’d be too dead to care
And for all we know, he could be posting from a public library…
ICXC NIKA
A
Amandil
Guest
The library is still a form of God’s love and grace.Well, if he couldn’t breathe, he’d be too dead to care
And for all we know, he could be posting from a public library…
ICXC NIKA
The point is that many of us are so focused on what we don’t have that we are too blind to be thankful to God for all the blessings that are all around us.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Interesting. Let me offer some thoughts, not by way of being absurd, but just to separate out in a clearer way what the relevant issues would be here.
If I provide food and water to the ants in my ant farm, does that mean I “love” them? If a prison warden provides food and water and clean sheets and even work for the inmates, does that mean he “loves” them. I’m not trying to say God is like a warden, though the ant case might be fair, since he is farther above us than I am above ants.
Consider, alternatively, a mother who provides clean meals and clean clothes for her child, but never a hug or a kind word. Never an actual gesture of tenderness when he has fallen and hurt himself. Would we expect him to feel loved? Would we think of her as a “loving” mother? NEVER spoke to him. NEVER gave a hug. NEVER. ?
Love the conversation.
J
josh987654321
Guest
What exactly are you expecting God to do for you?
J
josh987654321
Guest
Jesus to St. Faustina:
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
“Hope and pray” is not mere “expectation.”
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Great that she was moved by that and felt loved. Obviously her feeling of being in a desert of faith came to an end. Sincerely happy for her and all in such position.
The fact that down through history many great writers and saints and others experienced things besides just reading of the crucifixion/resurrection suggests that not everyone is given such a gift of faith by that story alone.
J
josh987654321
Guest
I still don’t understand.In any case, I’ll quote the following, and I hope you will also read the booklet linked in my previous post ‘The Passion’ (also in signature). If you wont look to Christ’s Passion in order to understand His incomprehensible love for us, than I believe there is nothing else I can say.
Jesus to St. Faustina:
The Gospel of Luke 16:31:
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
? You asked what I am “expecting.” I am not “expecting” anything. I am, though, hoping and praying.
In any case, I’ll quote the following, and I hope you will also read the booklet linked in my previous post ‘The Passion’ (also in signature). If you wont look to Christ’s Passion in order to understand His incomprehensible love for us, than I believe there is nothing else I can say.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
Stories like Saint Faustina are not comforting, though, again, I am truly happy for those for whom they are, and I can wish they were the occasion for me to receive the gift of greater faith. And yet, a woman who spent her whole life having visions and conversations with Jesus is supposed to make me feel better about feeling like I am in a desert of faith?
That’s like watching my sister be hugged and comforted by our mother whenever my sister is sad or hurt, and then my sister telling me that mom said I should feel more loved that mom does not give me hugs and soothing words.
Are you saying it should not feel like a desert? So everyone who ever felt that way, or suffered a dark night of the soul was wrong? If they had just reflected on the passion it would have gone away like the morning dew?
Back to the question at the center, though: you say God loves me now, even if I don’t feel it. Surely God would love me later when I am in Hell, even if I don’t feel it. So what would feel different to me?
D
Dorothy
Guest
I can understand that the spiritual life and private revelation to Sister Faustina has not affected what you need.
I’ll just share a bit of what Sister Faustina’s private revelation has done for me and for many.
It has made me more aware that the Lord wants to use us as His instruments to bring love and mercy to everyone. It has made me aware that I need to pray as earnestly for the abortionists as for the unborn babies.
It has made me aware that I need to pray for terrorists. It has made me aware that those who give their lives rather than deny Christ are a challenge to me and my feebleness in sharing the truth of Christ with others.
I am sure there is much more as well.
You don’t have to answer this rhetorical question,…Have you been deeply hurt by the insensitivity and lack of love in a person close to you, and that overshadows all the expressions of God’s love that others are trying to point out to you?
I pray that the Lord use all of us according to His ways of unconditional love.
May the whole world be immersed in the ocean of His Mercy!
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Nah. My family and friends are amazing. Decent thought, though.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
This seems like a good encapsulation of the issue, and people are going around it instead of addressing it, so I wanted to bring it back to the front of the line.
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Amandil
Guest
In the sense of disinterested charity(agape love), yes.
The warden is entrusted with a duty, and it is that duty, and the monetary compensation, which is what he desires. So this analogy is insufficient.
But God is also supremely immanent: He is more in you and knows you more intimately and objectively than you even know yourself.
Or consider a child who is so self-interested or self-absorbed that never told that mother “thank you” for those clothes or meals, a child who when they fell or got hurt refused her help insisting that they could do it on their own, a child who rebuffed every attempt of affection by the mother for fear of being labeled a “momma’s boy”? A child who basically only wanted the mother around because she gave him things but otherwise treated her as if she didn’t exist, yet blamed her because he didn’t feel loved by her?
Would that child be considered as "loving’?
“NEVER” is an interesting assertion. It also begs the question.
My children in their fits of anger also accuse me of “never” doing things for them which I in fact do and is an outright lie. They’re so blinded by their emotions that they seem to have short term memory loss, so I forgive them. The fact remains that when mired in our ego-centrism we are blind to those things which are frankly right in front of us.
I have to ask if you think that the sum total of our relationship with God is for Him to give us what we desire, what we think will make us happy?
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Of course that doesn’t seem like an awesome kid. Should the mother stand by and wait for him to grow out of it on his own? Should she just send him a copy of a letter she wrote years and years ago about how much she loves all her children and how she is always with them in spirit?
But what if the child spent his day every day working on the list of things his mother had left for him to accomplish. And what if he began and ended each day in honest expression of thanks and guidance?
Are you really claiming that the various saints and other holy men and women who suffered the agony of the DOF or DNS were just too self-absorbed?
No, I am certainly not suggesting that a healthy relationship between us and God or a child and parent involves only giving us what we desire. There’s a world of difference between that kind of dysfunctional relationship versus my wife or my mother or father saying they love me or helping me with comfort or advice in troubled times.
Sure, we forget some things sometimes. A parent or a friend would remind me of the time he helped me move or that time she came an picked me up when my car broke down or whatever. If God spoke to me as clearly, that would be outstanding. Sign me up.
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Amandil
Guest
When you have persistently obstinate children who refuse to listen to you then yes, you let them fail on their own. Eventually you hope that they will realize that their pride is vain and foolish and that they will recognize their utter dependence upon their mother. That is love. It may not be the touchy feely love that coddles, but it’s the kind of love that teaches.
Love tends towards the highest objective good of the beloved, lesser goods necessarily take a back seat when eternal matters are the issue.
I understand the sincerity, but what’s the real intention? Are you looking for some reward? What would that be? And why?
And according to Christ by even performing those things which He has set for us to do and attending to our prayers and everything else, we’ve only done the bare minimum, our duty.
No, exactly the opposite. Neither would they consider it to be “suffering”. They were thankful for the aridity and emptiness, because they knew that they were being conformed more perfectly to Christ. They saw it as a blessing, as do I.
If you want a full treatment of this issue, I suggest that you read “Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas DuBay. It’s his summation of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross and their writings on contemplative prayer. Included in it are their words on spiritual aridity and detachment. Perhaps it would be a benefit to you.Sure, we forget some things sometimes. A parent or a friend would remind me of the time he helped me move or that time she came an picked me up when my car broke down or whatever. If God spoke to me as clearly, that would be outstanding. Sign me up.
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