How could Hell be worse than the desert of faith or the dark night of the soul?

[Neoplatonist]

A mother who knows that suffering the consequences of ones choices is more loving that interfering.

That only makes sense IF the child could learn from the mistake and become a better person before dire consequences set in. If your 7-year-old was running for the edge of the cliff, how loving is patience then? What if your 12-year-old is shooting heroine (which doesn’t even ruin them for all eternity)?

Similarly, would a teacher who never answers student questions or frustrations be a “better” or “more loving” teacher? Would a mother who doesn’t answer back to a child lost in the middle of the mall show a higher form of love than one who comes over and picks her up? Even if the child has done this before? (She’s 4, of course she’s a slow learner.)

Should the heroine kid know better? Sure. Did you tell him a bunch of times? Sure. Did you give him a cool book to read about living healthy and avoiding the dangers of heroine? Sure.

So? Why would a teacher with infinite time and resources not go back and re-teach the lesson as many times in as many ways as it takes to help the kid past the sticking point? Because the kid is stubborn? Baloney. Because the kid is a bad listener? Again, no.

 

[davidv]

That only makes sense IF the child could learn from the mistake and become a better person before dire consequences set in. If your 7-year-old was running for the edge of the cliff, how loving is patience then? What if your 12-year-old is shooting heroine (which doesn’t even ruin them for all eternity)?

Similarly, would a teacher who never answers student questions or frustrations be a “better” or “more loving” teacher? Would a mother who doesn’t answer back to a child lost in the middle of the mall show a higher form of love than one who comes over and picks her up? Even if the child has done this before? (She’s 4, of course she’s a slow learner.)

Should the heroine kid know better? Sure. Did you tell him a bunch of times? Sure. Did you give him a cool book to read about living healthy and avoiding the dangers of heroine? Sure.

So? Why would a teacher with infinite time and resources not go back and re-teach the lesson as many times in as many ways as it takes to help the kid past the sticking point? Because the kid is stubborn? Baloney. Because the kid is a bad listener? Again, no.

Where does free will play in all of this? Free will is an absolute necessity for us to be able to love God and our neighbors. For without it God simple makes us do whatever he wants us to do. This would make anything would do the exact opposite of love.

Sounds like you are operating under the false assumption that knowledge necessitates obedience. True?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Where does free will play in all of this? Free will is an absolute necessity for us to be able to love God and our neighbors. For without it God simple makes us do whatever he wants us to do. This would make anything would do the exact opposite of love.

Sounds like you are operating under the false assumption that knowledge necessitates obedience. True?

Knowing that her mom is there with her doesn’t undermine the little girl’s freedom to choose where she wants to eat or which toys to buy with her allowance, or whatever.

I don’t think I’m operating from there. I would never buy into a model in which the Apostles and saints had lost free will just because they had the benefit of feeling God’s actual presence.

 

[davidv]

Knowing that her mom is there with her doesn’t undermine the little girl’s freedom to choose where she wants to eat or which toys to buy with her allowance, or whatever.

I don’t think I’m operating from there. I would never buy into a model in which the Apostles and saints had lost free will just because they had the benefit of feeling God’s actual presence.

Given this, I don’t understand your prior response. Because, in order prevent all bad things from happening to us, God would have suspend our, or someone elses, free will.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Have you read St. Therese’s Story of a Soul or Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity? They might be worth a read.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Given this, I don’t understand your prior response. Because, in order prevent all bad things from happening to us, God would have suspend our, or someone elses, free will.

God rigging the system doesn’t allow free will. To have free will for someone not united to God* you need, well, the possibility of actually being capable of choosing the alternative.

*someone fully united to God is making full use of their free will and is truly free. Just clarified because someone not fully united to God having free will indicates the ability to go against God.

 

[JosieN]

Augustine said, “How deep in the deep are they who do not cry out of the deep.”

 

[Neoplatonist]

Given this, I don’t understand your prior response. Because, in order prevent all bad things from happening to us, God would have suspend our, or someone elses, free will.

Let me ask this: why is he willing to cancel our ability to ever again choose freely after we end up sentenced to Hell on the day of judgment but not to prevent us from taking the last step that would merit such a sentence? Is it sacrosanct above all things or isn’t it?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Given this, I don’t understand your prior response. Because, in order prevent all bad things from happening to us, God would have suspend our, or someone elses, free will.

And let me clarify: I am far from asking that God prevent any bad things from happening to us. I was merely asking initially that he speak up nice and loud to let me know he’s with me, not some subtle whisper that may or may not just be the sound of the wind against the shutters.

To be fair, though, I am also now also clearly asking that while not preventing all manner or horrible things from happening to us, he at least step in and prevent the most horrible thing possible from happening. A loving parent can/should let their child learn from falling, but not if it’s going to fall off a cliff.

 

[JosieN]

If Jesus was standing next to you right now, what would you ask Him? If He told you He loved you, would you believe Him?

 

[davidv]

And let me clarify: I am far from asking that God prevent any bad things from happening to us. I was merely asking initially that he speak up nice and loud to let me know he’s with me, not some subtle whisper that may or may not just be the sound of the wind against the shutters.

To be fair, though, I am also now also clearly asking that while not preventing all manner or horrible things from happening to us, he at least step in and prevent the most horrible thing possible from happening. A loving parent can/should let their child learn from falling, but not if it’s going to fall off a cliff.

God became incarnate in Jesus who suffered, died, and rose from the dead. How much more “nice and loud” could it be? Then he established a visible Church to teach us and guide us.

 

[Neoplatonist]

If Jesus was standing next to you right now, what would you ask Him? If He told you He loved you, would you believe Him?

Some variation of Thomas’ doubt: How can I know it’s you?

 

[Amandil]

Let me ask this: why is he willing to cancel our ability to ever again choose freely after we end up sentenced to Hell on the day of judgment but not to prevent us from taking the last step that would merit such a sentence? Is it sacrosanct above all things or isn’t it?

Your again mistaken about the nature of our existence once we have passed into eternity.

God doesn’t cancel our ability to choose, we do. Once we have passed into eternity our wills are eternally set based upon our choice.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Your again mistaken about the nature of our existence once we have passed into eternity.

God doesn’t cancel our ability to choose, we do. Once we have passed into eternity our wills are eternally set based upon our choice.

Who built the system?

If free will is so essential, why does it have an expiration date, so to speak?

Why is that functionally different than telling your child that what they have decided by the age of 11 is their career forever and no changing their mind later?

 

[Neoplatonist]

God became incarnate in Jesus who suffered, died, and rose from the dead. How much more “nice and loud” could it be? Then he established a visible Church to teach us and guide us.

Two thousand years ago, half way around the world, some Jewish fishermen and tax collectors. Not me, not here, not now. If you bought your wife an amazing present for your first anniversary, and created a photo album of it, are you set, then? No need for other anniversary presents or thoughtful words when she is down?

 

[davidv]

Two thousand years ago, half way around the world, some Jewish fishermen and tax collectors. Not me, not here, not now. If you bought your wife an amazing present for your first anniversary, and created a photo album of it, are you set, then? No need for other anniversary presents or thoughtful words when she is down?

The Church is here everyday, not just on annual anniversaries.

 

[Neoplatonist]

The Church is here everyday, not just on annual anniversaries.

A building full of people whose lives do not back up their claims. The Church was there in the times of various saints and holy men and women. Was their heartbreaking sense of abandonment wrong, then? Did its presence fill their craving for God as an actual person?

 

[davidv]

A building full of people whose lives do not back up their claims.

Why do you think this is the definition of Church as I used in the prior post? You might want to check out Lumen Gentium to see the definition that I had in mind.

The Church was there in the times of various saints and holy men and women. Was their heartbreaking sense of abandonment wrong, then? Did its presence fill their craving for God as an actual person?

I have no I idea. I didn’t know any of them personally.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Why do you think this is the definition of Church as I used in the prior post? You might want to check out Lumen Gentium to see the definition that I had in mind.

I have no I idea. I didn’t know any of them personally.

We can “say” the Church is a person all we want (to encapsulate the sacramentality in a usably succinct way at the heart of the current discussion), but that doesn’t make it “feel” like a person. My point is that if it did, then those who continued in sincere communion with it would not have felt abandoned in a desert of faith.

Besides, the feeling of being in the presence of a person is foundational. It should not take a complex shelf full of theological commentary to convince us it’s happening (though perhaps to help us understand why or how it could be happening if we DO feel it).

 

[Amandil]

Who built the system?

If free will is so essential, why does it have an expiration date, so to speak?

What exactly do you think “free will” means?

Why is that functionally different than telling your child that what they have decided by the age of 11 is their career forever and no changing their mind later?

The appetites of the will are not comparable to choosing a career. They are either ordered to the good or they are not.