How could Hell be worse than the desert of faith or the dark night of the soul?

[Amandil]

In the context of the OP, why would I care if I’m in the presence of something if I can’t tell I’m in the presence of it. How does it keep me warm at night to talk about an invisible, un-touchable fire in the hearth?

Because it/He is true, regardless of whether you can feel it or not.

You people keep trying to answer some version of the question of whether or not I am wrong to feel I am in a desert of faith, and about whether I’m doing it right to try to find a way out.

Do you feel they are real, or are people experiencing them only ever / always delusional?

A “desert of faith” is not even the same as a dark night of the soul.

It seems rather to be simple feelings of dryness and numbness which is a natural part of human existence that for whatever reason you are associating with faith/religion.

 

[CrossofChrist]

In the context of the OP, why would I care if I’m in the presence of something if I can’t tell I’m in the presence of it.

Jesus is God’s revelation for us. In him, we find that being human means to be a relational being, a being “for” the other. Jesus also tells us that ‘Whoever holds on to his soul will lose it, but whoever gives it away will gain it’ (Matt. 10:39). Our humanity as God made is only attained by becoming greater than and going beyond our humanity; Jesus reveals that in our existential condition, our being “for” the other–our true humanity–means that we have to give our souls away to another to become something even greater than ourselves–not in an intangible way, where we say “God” but really end up back at ourselves, living as we desire. Maybe you live “for” other people, recognizing the value of being a moral person, but if God revealed himself in Christ then the moral law isn’t enough–then the only true charity comes from Christ. So in that case, to give our souls away to another must entail giving them away to a historically concrete and visible authority: the Catholic Church.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Jesus is God’s revelation for us. In him, we find that being human means to be a relational being, a being “for” the other. Jesus also tells us that ‘Whoever holds on to his soul will lose it, but whoever gives it away will gain it’ (Matt. 10:39). Our humanity as God made is only attained by becoming greater than and going beyond our humanity; Jesus reveals that in our existential condition, our being “for” the other–our true humanity–means that we have to give our souls away to another to become something even greater than ourselves–not in an intangible way, where we say “God” but really end up back at ourselves, living as we desire. Maybe you live “for” other people, recognizing the value of being a moral person, but if God revealed himself in Christ then the moral law isn’t enough–then the only true charity comes from Christ. So in that case, to give our souls away to another must entail giving them away to a historically concrete and visible authority: the Catholic Church.

So, we were created to be slaves and servants to others, and we are trapped in unhappiness and malcontentment until we live up to that? Ug.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Because it/He is true, regardless of whether you can feel it or not.

A “desert of faith” is not even the same as a dark night of the soul.

It seems rather to be simple feelings of dryness and numbness which is a natural part of human existence that for whatever reason you are associating with faith/religion.

Interesting. I had not expected you to allow that the periods of spiritual dryness expressed by various thinkers and saints were errors of thinking. I’ll have to reflect on that.

I’m curious what you think was being expressed by Christ when he asked why God had forsaken him?

 

[GEddie]

Interesting. I had not expected you to allow that the periods of spiritual dryness expressed by various thinkers and saints were errors of thinking. I’ll have to reflect on that.

I don’t believe he said that.

He said that periods of “spiritual dryness” (in the sense of the human spirit/soul/mind) are a normal part of human life, and need not be connected to the “dark night of the soul” or similar religiously defined experience.

IIUC, as I have no experience of the DNS or equivalent.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Amandil]

According to the Saints periods of mere mental/emotional dryness are clearly distinguishable from a dark night of the soul; everything that you are expressing according to St. John and Teresa of Avila describes the former, not the latter.

 

[GEddie]

According to the Saints periods of mere mental/emotional dryness are clearly distinguishable from a dark night of the soul; everything that you are expressing according to St. John and Teresa of Avila describes the former, not the latter.

I’ll take your word for it, but methinks the OP would need to do a bit more research.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Amandil]

I’ll take your word for it, but methinks the OP would need to do a bit more research.

ICXC NIKA.

I’ll provide the differences per St. John when I get home to my mini-library.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Meh. We can change the terms around however you want to. The point is how will not feeling connected to God later feel any different than not feeling connected to Him now? Will the silence in response to my prayers be even MORE silent somehow?

You can talk about how he answers but maybe I just don’t hear. Fine. Point is, from my perspective it sounds silent either way.

 

[Amandil]

Meh. We can change the terms around however you want to. The point is how will not feeling connected to God later feel any different than not feeling connected to Him now? Will the silence in response to my prayers be even MORE silent somehow?

You can talk about how he answers but maybe I just don’t hear. Fine. Point is, from my perspective it sounds silent either way.

What would you think of the kind of relationship where the other person constantly demanded that you must always meet them on their terms?

 

[Neoplatonist]

What would you think of the kind of relationship where the other person constantly demanded that you must always meet them on their terms?

It would feel pretty much like being a teacher and a parent, and I do both every day.

Still, there’s a big difference between “always” and “once in a while.”

What would you feel about a relationship where the other person never seems to meet you on your terms?

 

[J_Peterson]

I wish the quote function here included quotes from the original post, but I wanted to say thank you for sharing that. One I would really recommend is He and I, by Gabrielle Bossis. I feel like I’ve posted that sentence verbatim on this site around 10 times by now, but I did think it was a really good read. It helped me feel a much more personal connection to Jesus that I hadn’t really understood how to have previously.

I’m going to add that to my list of books to read. I figure if what I posted reminded you of it, it must be worth reading.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I’m going to add that to my list of books to read. I figure if what I posted reminded you of it, it must be worth reading.

Two things to bear in mind. The introduction was written in like the 70s or 80s, and can be a bit new agey from what I’ve heard. I skipped it though so I’m not sure. I’m pretty sure Gabrielle’s words at least have the imprimatur? Two, it’s translated from French, and it’s essentially the diary of her supposed interactions with Jesus. She was a Catholic laywoman in France around the time of WWII if I’m not mistaken, and supposedly heard Jesus speaking to her, and was told to write her conversations down. There is quite a bit of content, and it’s really good material for daily meditations. Sometimes I feel like I read through much if it too fast so I want to go back and read it again more slowly.

 

[J_Peterson]

Two things to bear in mind. The introduction was written in like the 70s or 80s, and can be a bit new agey from what I’ve heard. I skipped it though so I’m not sure. I’m pretty sure Gabrielle’s words at least have the imprimatur? Two, it’s translated from French, and it’s essentially the diary of her supposed interactions with Jesus. She was a Catholic laywoman in France around the time of WWII if I’m not mistaken, and supposedly heard Jesus speaking to her, and was told to write her conversations down. There is quite a bit of content, and it’s really good material for daily meditations. Sometimes I feel like I read through much if it too fast so I want to go back and read it again more slowly.

I have a bad habit of skipping introductins anyway

I think the book may be out of print so I’ll have to keep an eye out at the used book stores.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I have a bad habit of skipping introductins anyway

I think the book may be out of print so I’ll have to keep an eye out at the used book stores.

I ended up finding it in the Nook store. It may have been free, in fact, but I can’t remember. I don’t think it was expensive in any case. I imagine you could find it in Amazon’s store as well.

 

[Amandil]

It would feel pretty much like being a teacher and a parent, and I do both every day.

So I would think that you’d cut God some slack…

Still, there’s a big difference between “always” and “once in a while.”

What would you feel about a relationship where the other person never seems to meet you on your terms?

There’s that word “never” again…

My first step would be to look at myself, am I doing something which is cause to drive the other away. I doubt that if I was committing adultery, or if I had refused to take a shower for several weeks, that my wife would want to be around.

Secondly, I don’t consider myself to be in any position to demand that the Creator of the Universe needs to meet my terms at all. Before God I’m nothing. I’m a beggar. We all are.

Thirdly, a person who aspires for the spiritual life, even if they were tempted into thinking, “what has God done for me lately?”, they would instantly be directed towards the innumerable material blessings that they are surrounded by. From the fact that they exist and are able to draw breath, to the food in their pantry and the clothes in their closet, that they have the skills and ability to be a teacher or any gainful employment, are all gifts and blessings of God and sure examples of God’s presence, love, and care. They would realize that they are utterly drowned in God’s love.

To demand some extraordinary demonstration from God so you can “feel” loved by God begs the question of weather or not you’d actually feel loved afterwards. And this is apart from the pride and arrogance of seeking it, basically putting God to the test.

It seems rather that you’re seeking the gift for its own end instead of the Giver.

 

[TK421]

Spiritual dryness is not a seperation from God; it is a perceived distancing from God (when in fact, the person might be closer to God because of their dryness). Being in communion with God is not a feeling inside of you. It is a choice; an act of admittance to allow God to rule your life and your conscious. It’s something that applies every bit as much - or more - while we feel down.

Hell, just like Earth and Heaven, is not just a spiritual or a mental or a physical state, but a holistic state that includes mind, body, and soul. A person in Hell is completely deprived of every kind of blessing from God in addition to experiencing perpetual torments because of their final impenitence. From the accounts of mystics in Church history, Hell is not as bad as the fiery place that is commonly imagined. It is much worse.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Spiritual dryness is not a seperation from God; it is a perceived distancing from God (when in fact, the person might be closer to God because of their dryness). Being in communion with God is not a feeling inside of you. It is a choice; an act of admittance to allow God to rule your life and your conscious. It’s something that applies every bit as much - or more - while we feel down.

Hell, just like Earth and Heaven, is not just a spiritual or a mental or a physical state, but a holistic state that includes mind, body, and soul. A person in Hell is completely deprived of every kind of blessing from God in addition to experiencing perpetual torments because of their final impenitence. From the accounts of mystics in Church history, Hell is not as bad as the fiery place that is commonly imagined. It is much worse.

Interesting perspective, TK421. Is there a particular text and/or passage you could point me toward re: the idea that communion is an act of will?

 

[tonyrey]

Spiritual dryness is not a seperation from God; it is a perceived distancing from God (when in fact, the person might be closer to God because of their dryness). Being in communion with God is not a feeling inside of you. It is a choice; an act of admittance to allow God to rule your life and your conscious. It’s something that applies every bit as much - or more - while we feel down.

Hell, just like Earth and Heaven, is not just a spiritual or a mental or a physical state, but a holistic state that includes mind, body, and soul. A person in Hell is completely deprived of every kind of blessing from God in addition to experiencing perpetual torments because of their final impenitence. From the accounts of mystics in Church history, Hell is not as bad as the fiery place that is commonly imagined. It is much worse.

If Hell had no compensations at all no one would choose to be in such a state.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Interesting point, TonyRey,

Makes me need a new thread.