How could Hell be worse than the desert of faith or the dark night of the soul?

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Neoplatonist said:
We can “say” the Church is a person all we want (to encapsulate the sacramentality in a usably succinct way at the heart of the current discussion), but that doesn’t make it “feel” like a person. My point is that if it did, then those who continued in sincere communion with it would not have felt abandoned in a desert of faith.

Besides, the feeling of being in the presence of a person is foundational. It should not take a complex shelf full of theological commentary to convince us it’s happening (though perhaps to help us understand why or how it could be happening if we DO feel it).
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It seems to me that there is too much reliance on feelings and too little reliance on intellect in this response.
 
davidv said:
It seems to me that there is too much reliance on feelings and too little reliance on intellect in this response.
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Isn’t the central call to love Him? Augustine didn’t say “our intellects are restless until they find rest in thee.” 😃

Besides “desert of faith” and “dark night of the soul” are hardly just mental constructs. Did the angels in the garden give Christ consolation or scholastic-style argumentation?

Why is the Bible built around parables of love and marriage and fathers and returning children and agony and joy?
 
davidv said:
It seems to me that there is too much reliance on feelings and too little reliance on intellect in this response.
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So much for “We walk by faith and not by as sight” & “more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

There’s a reason why Jesus spoke so much about faith and so little about feelings. As St. Teresa said of the Pharisees: "They spoke directly with their Lord and were no better off for the favor. "
 
Amandil said:
So much for “We walk by faith and not by as sight” & “more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

There’s a reason why Jesus spoke so much about faith and so little about feelings. As St. Teresa said of the Pharisees: "They spoke directly with their Lord and were no better off for the favor. "
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Sure. I’ve always allowed that I might be even more blessed if I believed without seeing. Doubting Thomas was beloved and a saint nonetheless, was he not?

St. T of Avila? Sure, a quick check also provides quotes like this: “Whenever we think of Christ, we should recall the love that led Him to bestow on us so many graces and favors, and also the great love God showed in giving us in Christ a pledge of His love; for love calls for love in return. Let us strive to keep this always before our eyes and to rouse ourselves to love Him.”
 
Neoplatonist said:
Two thousand years ago, half way around the world, some Jewish fishermen and tax collectors. Not me, not here, not now. If you bought your wife an amazing present for your first anniversary, and created a photo album of it, are you set, then? No need for other anniversary presents or thoughtful words when she is down?
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vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20100806_youth_en.html

We too want to be able to see Jesus, to speak with him and to feel his presence even more powerfully. For many people today, it has become difficult to approach Jesus. There are so many images of Jesus in circulation which, while claiming to be scientific, detract from his greatness and the uniqueness of his person. That is why, after many years of study and reflection, I thought of sharing something of my own personal encounter with Jesus by writing a book. It was a way to help others see, hear and touch the Lord in whom God came to us in order to make himself known. Jesus himself, when he appeared again to his disciples a week later, said to Thomas: “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe” (Jn 20:27). We too can have tangible contact with Jesus and put our hand, so to speak, upon the signs of his Passion, the signs of his love. It is in the sacraments that he draws particularly near to us and gives himself to us. Dear young people, learn to “see” and to “meet” Jesus in the Eucharist, where he is present and close to us, and even becomes food for our journey. In the sacrament of Penance the Lord reveals his mercy and always grants us his forgiveness. Recognize and serve Jesus in the poor, the sick, and in our brothers and sisters who are in difficulty and in need of help.

Enter into a personal dialogue with Jesus Christ and cultivate it in faith. Get to know him better by reading the Gospels and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Converse with him in prayer, and place your trust in him. He will never betray that trust! “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 150). Thus you will acquire a mature and solid faith, one which will not be based simply on religious sentiment or on a vague memory of the catechism you studied as a child. You will come to know God and to live authentically in union with him, like the Apostle Thomas who showed his firm faith in Jesus in the words: “My Lord and my God!”.
 
CrossofChrist said:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20100806_youth_en.html

We too want to be able to see Jesus, to speak with him and to feel his presence even more powerfully. For many people today, it has become difficult to approach Jesus. There are so many images of Jesus in circulation which, while claiming to be scientific, detract from his greatness and the uniqueness of his person. That is why, after many years of study and reflection, I thought of sharing something of my own personal encounter with Jesus by writing a book. It was a way to help others see, hear and touch the Lord in whom God came to us in order to make himself known. Jesus himself, when he appeared again to his disciples a week later, said to Thomas: “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe” (Jn 20:27). We too can have tangible contact with Jesus and put our hand, so to speak, upon the signs of his Passion, the signs of his love. It is in the sacraments that he draws particularly near to us and gives himself to us. Dear young people, learn to “see” and to “meet” Jesus in the Eucharist, where he is present and close to us, and even becomes food for our journey. In the sacrament of Penance the Lord reveals his mercy and always grants us his forgiveness. Recognize and serve Jesus in the poor, the sick, and in our brothers and sisters who are in difficulty and in need of help.

Enter into a personal dialogue with Jesus Christ and cultivate it in faith. Get to know him better by reading the Gospels and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Converse with him in prayer, and place your trust in him. He will never betray that trust! “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 150). Thus you will acquire a mature and solid faith, one which will not be based simply on religious sentiment or on a vague memory of the catechism you studied as a child. You will come to know God and to live authentically in union with him, like the Apostle Thomas who showed his firm faith in Jesus in the words: “My Lord and my God!”.
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It is wonderful that “(as if) seeing” and “(as if) touching” works for so many. Very cool, and I can appreciate how the movement of the intellect apart from sensory evidence would make us a little more like angels than animals. Maybe someday I will receive the grace of a faith like that.
 
Neoplatonist said:
Isn’t the central call to love Him? Augustine didn’t say “our intellects are restless until they find rest in thee.” 😃

Besides “desert of faith” and “dark night of the soul” are hardly just mental constructs. Did the angels in the garden give Christ consolation or scholastic-style argumentation?

Why is the Bible built around parables of love and marriage and fathers and returning children and agony and joy?
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How is love related to feelings?

The love that God calls us to is an act of the will, not a feeling.
 
Neoplatonist said:
It is wonderful that “(as if) seeing” and “(as if) touching” works for so many. Very cool, and I can appreciate how the movement of the intellect apart from sensory evidence would make us a little more like angels than animals. Maybe someday I will receive the grace of a faith like that.
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Could it be you are going trough a trial?

I am not sure where I found this prayer, maybe it can help.

Dear Lord, during this trial,
I offer up to you my confusion
Give me clarity
I offer up to you my despair
Give me hope
I offer up to you my weakness
Give me strength
I offer up to you my pettiness
Give me generosity of spirit
I offer up to you all my
Negative thoughts from Satan
So that when he asks “Where is Your God now?”
I may respond “Right here with me, giving me His grace
As a Heavenly beam of light penetrating your darkness!”

Does anyone know who wrote that?
 
I don’t really have much to add to the discussion but I am enjoying it.

Neoplatonist, out of curiosity, have you ever read Encounters With Silence by Karl Rahner? He talks a bit about God’s silence. I found the book very moving and very down to earth (it’s almost bleak in some parts, it was written in Germany during the war so it’s not too surprising). No answers really, just questions.
Why are You so silent? Why do You enjoin me to speak with You, when You don’t pay
any attention to me? Isn’t Your silence a sure sign that You’re not listening? Or do You
really listen quite attentively, do You perhaps listen my whole life long, until I have told
you everything, until I have spoken out my entire self to You? Do You remain silent
precisely because You are waiting until I am really finished, so that You can then speak
Your word to me, the word of Your eternity? Are You silent so that You can one day
bring to a close the life-long monologue of a poor human being, burdened by the
darkness of this world, by speaking the luminous word of eternal life, in which You will
express Your very Self in the depths of my heart?
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Neoplatonist said:
It is wonderful that “(as if) seeing” and “(as if) touching” works for so many. Very cool, and I can appreciate how the movement of the intellect apart from sensory evidence would make us a little more like angels than animals. Maybe someday I will receive the grace of a faith like that.
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How familiar are you with Ignatian spirituality?

You might like it.
 
Neoplatonist said:
Who built the system?

If free will is so essential, why does it have an expiration date, so to speak?

Why is that functionally different than telling your child that what they have decided by the age of 11 is their career forever and no changing their mind later?
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There is no such thing as hell. The Pope has said so : Pope Francis said:

“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.”
 
Jason_Firestone said:
There is no such thing as hell. The Pope has said so : Pope Francis said:

“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.”
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=849235
 
Jason_Firestone said:
There is no such thing as hell. The Pope has said so : Pope Francis said:

“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.”
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You have a source for this?
 
J_Peterson said:
I don’t really have much to add to the discussion but I am enjoying it.

Neoplatonist, out of curiosity, have you ever read Encounters With Silence by Karl Rahner? He talks a bit about God’s silence. I found the book very moving and very down to earth (it’s almost bleak in some parts, it was written in Germany during the war so it’s not too surprising). No answers really, just questions.
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I wish the quote function here included quotes from the original post, but I wanted to say thank you for sharing that. One I would really recommend is He and I, by Gabrielle Bossis. I feel like I’ve posted that sentence verbatim on this site around 10 times by now, but I did think it was a really good read. It helped me feel a much more personal connection to Jesus that I hadn’t really understood how to have previously.
 
Neoplatonist said:
A building full of people whose lives do not back up their claims?
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Of course the Church is full of sinners; human life is.

It is not the presence of sinners but the Sacramental Body of our LORD that makes the Church important.

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie said:
Of course the Church is full of sinners; human life is.

It is not the presence of sinners but the Sacramental Body of our LORD that makes the Church important.

ICXC NIKA.
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That old saw…:rolleyes:

Perhaps he missed that Scripture about who Jesus came for.
 
GEddie said:
Of course the Church is full of sinners; human life is.

It is not the presence of sinners but the Sacramental Body of our LORD that makes the Church important.

ICXC NIKA.
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In the context of the OP, why would I care if I’m in the presence of something if I can’t tell I’m in the presence of it. How does it keep me warm at night to talk about an invisible, un-touchable fire in the hearth?

You people keep trying to answer some version of the question of whether or not I am wrong to feel I am in a desert of faith, and about whether I’m doing it right to try to find a way out.

Do you feel they are real, or are people experiencing them only ever / always delusional?
 
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