How could I be happy?

[JRKH]

I see I am not alone in questioning the legitimacy of this question and its construction. Good.

Though we may wonder about this, let us also remember that it is better to sincerely answer 100 insincere questions so that others looking in might see our charity, than to falsely accuse 1 person of incincerety and by accusing lose them to the kingdom.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Lots of responses again. I only have time for a few quick responses.

1] It is claimed that this man does not love God because he is so upset by the suffering of his wife. That he has made his wife into an idol. I cannot see either claim being correct.

What you are doing trying to make all Love equal when it is not. Properly ordered Love Places God at the pinnacle. All other True Love stems from that Love for God.
In the Gospels it is written that we must be willing to forsake all others for the Love of God. If we are not, then we are not worthy of the Kingdom ourselves. It is also written that a man cannot serve two masters. He will Love one and hate the other or Love one and neglect the other.
In the case of a man who has an unbelieving wife, His Love for her must be subject to His Love for God. His love for her cannot be on a par with his love for God for as mentioned earlier this risks replacing God with another - an idol.
I think this is where there is confusion. It is a problem of understanding what Loving God and sacrificing for the Kingdom means.

2] Changing in Heaven. Yes, of course, a person is changed in Heaven. For the better! So if they are now completely insensitive to the eternal agony of their wife this would not be true. And that change surely does not ammount to amnesia about their life on earth?

And how do you know that such a change is not for the better. If one is more perfectly conformed to what is good, then one will also more perfectly hate that which is evil. This is not desensitizing, it is replacing confused human emotion with the perfection of God’s Holy Love, Mercy and Justice.

3] My motivation. [If you cannot kick the ball kick the man!] This is a site where the beliefs of the Catholic Church are discussed. Unbelievers are welcome provided they obey the rules and are polite etc. I have great respect for the Catholic Church but your views on Hell are a scandal - hence this thread.

I welcome you here and I understand your concerns. I think your questions are good ones. However I also think that you are not yet at the point yet on your spiritual journey that allows you to understand what we are trying (poorly) to express.
This is why you think that the views on hell are scandalous.

I suggest that you keep praying on the matter, and seek to grow in God’s holiness and Truth. If you enjoy reading, I recommend the book in my signature (I get nothing from recommending it). I believe it will give you greater insight into the journey and help you understand better how all of this works. It’s a fairly thick book, but a very easy read.

Peace
James

 

[crazzeto]

I am in Heaven and so supposed to be in bliss.

But my wife is in Hell so how could I possibly be happy?

Just asking

Since she choose hell, then she is where she choose to be.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Laurie, you still aren’t addressing my points regarding Satan.

You are giving Satan more power than you give God, because you claim that being with God in heaven is not ‘enough’ to make you happy while your wife is miserable in hell.

Since Satan wants people to be miserable, Satan will be pleased that he has had the power, through having your wife in hell though you are ‘in heaven’, of making you miserable despite being in heaven with God. You have now made Satan more powerful than God, in Satan’s being able to have the power not just over those in hell, but over those in heaven too.

God is not powerful enough to make you understand and accept your wife’s decision and for you to be happy with Him. No, you think you can only be happy only by having your wife ‘not’ in torment. But God didn’t ‘put’ her there. It seems to me that you are subtly trying to ‘blame’ God while at the same time you aren’t allowing Him the ‘power’ to exercise full justice etc. You’re basically claiming that because God ‘let’ your wife suffer eternally, God is therefore responsible also for YOUR misery and He lacks the power to ‘correct’ it, as you ‘understand’ Christian teaching. And I’m sorry to tell you that it is your stubborn refusal to allow God His true power which is causing your own ‘agony’, not God’s lack.

 

[nickybr38]

Wait a minute James. Isn’t it true that God Himself is unhappy for the souls that are in Hell? Doesn’t it pain Him that His children have turned away and chosen that path?

I don’t believe in the idea that we are blissfully and mindlessly happy in heaven. Part of me thinks there will still be the opportunity for sorrow for those who are lost to us. However, that sorrow will be lessened by the presence of God Himself and the joy we feel as we are surrounded by all of our loved ones who are in heaven with us.

If the angels rejoice when one is brought back to God I should think they weep when one turns away from Him as well. And if they can, why can’t we when we are with them?

BUT this is all just my personal opinion. I have no doctrine or bible verses to back me up so feel free to rip it apart.

Edited to Add; Holy! I didn’t realize there were three pages. So sorry if I’m repeating something that’s been expressed. Whooops.

 

[JRKH]

Wait a minute James. Isn’t it true that God Himself is unhappy for the souls that are in Hell? Doesn’t it pain Him that His children have turned away and chosen that path?

I don’t believe in the idea that we are blissfully and mindlessly happy in heaven. Part of me thinks there will still be the opportunity for sorrow for those who are lost to us. However, that sorrow will be lessened by the presence of God Himself and the joy we feel as we are surrounded by all of our loved ones who are in heaven with us.

If the angels rejoice when one is brought back to God I should think they weep when one turns away from Him as well. And if they can, why can’t we when we are with them?

BUT this is all just my personal opinion. I have no doctrine or bible verses to back me up so feel free to rip it apart.

Edited to Add; Holy! I didn’t realize there were three pages. So sorry if I’m repeating something that’s been expressed. Whooops.

No problem -
Much of the problem stems from trying to fit our finite and imperfect understandings and worldly emotions into the infinite and perfected realm of Heaven.

Let me try another approach. We know that we are going to lose loved ones to death. When someone close to us dies we grieve but that grief passes the wounds heal and we go on. Such may well be case in heaven.
Let’s assume for the moment that it is the man who dies first. He now sees perfectly that his former wife (marriage ends at death) is headed for hell. His Love for her causes him, to intercede on her behalf before the throne. Yet nothing he or the whole heavenly host is able to do prevents her from fleeing from God.
As she walks this path toward evil those in heaven who love her “grieve” for she is dead already in the Spirit.
Finally her earthly death comes and she embraces that which she nurtured during her life. She recieved the reward she asks for. In heaven, knowing that she received that which she sought, grieving ceases, the “wound” is instantly healed and Peace and Joy continue.

Peace
James

 

[nickybr38]

No problem -
Much of the problem stems from trying to fit our finite and imperfect understandings and worldly emotions into the infinite and perfected realm of Heaven.

Let me try another approach. We know that we are going to lose loved ones to death. When someone close to us dies we grieve but that grief passes the wounds heal and we go on. Such may well be case in heaven.
Let’s assume for the moment that it is the man who dies first. He now sees perfectly that his former wife (marriage ends at death) is headed for hell. His Love for her causes him, to intercede on her behalf before the throne. Yet nothing he or the whole heavenly host is able to do prevents her from fleeing from God.
As she walks this path toward evil those in heaven who love her “grieve” for she is dead already in the Spirit.
Finally her earthly death comes and she embraces that which she nurtured during her life. She recieved the reward she asks for. In heaven, knowing that she received that which she sought, grieving ceases, the “wound” is instantly healed and Peace and Joy continue.

Peace
James

Thank you James. Just for the sake of further exploration, what happens if the woman dies first? Is the man’s time of grieving fulfilled on earth (so to speak)?

Off topic wondering; You know I just realized that people seem to focus on Hell a lot more then they do on Heaven. I wonder why that is?

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Wait a minute James. Isn’t it true that God Himself is unhappy for the souls that are in Hell? Doesn’t it pain Him that His children have turned away and chosen that path?

I don’t believe in the idea that we are blissfully and mindlessly happy in heaven. Part of me thinks there will still be the opportunity for sorrow for those who are lost to us. However, that sorrow will be lessened by the presence of God Himself and the joy we feel as we are surrounded by all of our loved ones who are in heaven with us.

If the angels rejoice when one is brought back to God I should think they weep when one turns away from Him as well. And if they can, why can’t we when we are with them?

BUT this is all just my personal opinion. I have no doctrine or bible verses to back me up so feel free to rip it apart.

Edited to Add; Holy! I didn’t realize there were three pages. So sorry if I’m repeating something that’s been expressed. Whooops.

Nicky,

No one else has given this reply, and I second your thoughts on it!

I think everyone has given good analogies, teachings, traditions and thoughts here. I agree with JRKH about our finite understanding. The truth is a culmination of all of these things. St. Therese said that she would spend her Heaven doing good on Earth. The glorified in Heaven are well aware of the sufferings of those on Earth, and no doubt are also aware of the sufferings of those in Purgatory and Hell, yet somehow they are happy, yet not indifferent to those who are outside of Heaven.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you James. Just for the sake of further exploration, what happens if the woman dies first? Is the man’s time of grieving fulfilled on earth (so to speak)?

To an extent yes I believe it would be for the husband would recognize the road his wife was on and in his grief he would grieve not only for the loss of his wife, but for the loss of a soul in heaven. Of course the husband probably would cling to the possiblity of a last moment repenance - as unlikely as that might be.
Once the husband dies though and passes through the Purgation, he will see the truth and justice of her position and no onger cling to her as his wife.

Off topic wondering; You know I just realized that people seem to focus on Hell a lot more then they do on Heaven. I wonder why that is?

You are quite right and it’s too bad.
I think it is a part of our fallen nature. We can more easily relate to “punishment” and “torture” of the unrepentant “self” than we can relate to the eternal and glorious Bliss of the totally perfected spirit.

Peace
James

 

[Marc_Anthony]

1. Since you are with God, you are perfectly knowledgeable of exactly why your wife is in Hell and since you are conformed to God’s will you agree completely that she deserves it.
2. With this in mind, you can live in Heaven in total bliss and happiness since you are with God, who you love more than your wife, forever.

Hi Marc - your point does not work. This man agrees with his wife being in Hell but that does not make him happy. As I have mentioned before if my wife was justly imprisoned I would still be made unhappy by her confinement.

Laurie

Mmm, no, you missed the point of my analogy (though I strongly suggest you read JRKH’s responses instead of mine-they’re much better). You would NORMALLY be unhappy about your wife’s predicament, but the overwhelming happiness of being conformed to God’s will overrides that.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

I must say that none of the answers given, ingenious though they are, persuade me. But the question is just one of thee many that arise from the notion of Hell.

1. Why would a good God allow a place of everlasting torment for his children who had gone astray?
2. If there were such a place how could he, a loving heavenly Father be happy with the situation?
3. How could the other inhabitants of Heaven now morally perfect in his presence be happy either?
4. How is an eternal punishment comensurate with a finite crime?
5. The points of punishment are deterrence, reform, protection of the public, and ‘eye for an eye’. The last is superceded by the Law of Love, the second and third do not apply, and the first could be achieved by last drastic measures.
6. Why not a finite punishment or extinction - eternal suffering is an affront to the notion of a loving God!
7. Nobody, realising that true happiness lies in a relationship with God, would want to go to Hell.
8. Given this, they would repent after death - why does God not accept their repentence?
9. Who would deliberately chose an eternity of pain? Once they realised the nature of Hell they would want to change their minds. Why would God not allow this?
10. Who are these odd beings - Satan and his mates - who rebelled against an omnipotent God and somehow did not realise they would lose!!!
11. And why, if they were living in bliss with God, would they wish to revolt? They would have no motive so to do. [Note: Free Will is not the answer, that just explains why a revolt was possible - the question is ‘what was the motivation?’ and no sensible answer is available.]

Now you could try the desperate ploy of saying, ‘God is infinite, we cannot understand his ways - please shut up’ yet he is supposed to have given us Reason and his ways are supposed to be, at least, not contrary to it.

But the much more likely explanation is the notion of Hell is incorrect.

 

[davidv]

I must say that none of the answers given, ingenious though they are, persuade me. But the question is just one of thee many that arise from the notion of Hell.

1. Why would a good God allow a place of everlasting torment for his children who had gone astray?
2. If there were such a place how could he, a loving heavenly Father be happy with the situation?
3. How could the other inhabitants of Heaven now morally perfect in his presence be happy either?
4. How is an eternal punishment comensurate with a finite crime?
5. The points of punishment are deterrence, reform, protection of the public, and ‘eye for an eye’. The last is superceded by the Law of Love, the second and third do not apply, and the first could be achieved by last drastic measures.
6. Why not a finite punishment or extinction - eternal suffering is an affront to the notion of a loving God!
7. Nobody, realising that true happiness lies in a relationship with God, would want to go to Hell.
8. Given this, they would repent after death - why does God not accept their repentence?
9. Who would deliberately chose an eternity of pain? Once they realised the nature of Hell they would want to change their minds. Why would God not allow this?
10. Who are these odd beings - Satan and his mates - who rebelled against an omnipotent God and somehow did not realise they would lose!!!
11. And why, if they were living in bliss with God, would they wish to revolt? They would have no motive so to do. [Note: Free Will is not the answer, that just explains why a revolt was possible - the question is ‘what was the motivation?’ and no sensible answer is available.]

Now you could try the desperate ploy of saying, ‘God is infinite, we cannot understand his ways - please shut up’ yet he is supposed to have given us Reason and his ways are supposed to be, at least, not contrary to it.

But the much more likely explanation is the notion of Hell is incorrect.

I believe you have convinced youself that you cannot be pursuaded and no matter how truthful any response may be, you will declare it false. And you will do this without a rational argument, only an appeal to emotion.

12 Come, children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
13Who among you loves life, takes delight in prosperous days?
14 Keep your tongue from evil, your lips from speaking lies. (Psalms (NAB) 34)

 

[nickybr38]

I must say that none of the answers given, ingenious though they are, persuade me. But the question is just one of thee many that arise from the notion of Hell.

1. Why would a good God allow a place of everlasting torment for his children who had gone astray?
2. If there were such a place how could he, a loving heavenly Father be happy with the situation?
3. How could the other inhabitants of Heaven now morally perfect in his presence be happy either?
4. How is an eternal punishment comensurate with a finite crime?
5. The points of punishment are deterrence, reform, protection of the public, and ‘eye for an eye’. The last is superceded by the Law of Love, the second and third do not apply, and the first could be achieved by last drastic measures.
6. Why not a finite punishment or extinction - eternal suffering is an affront to the notion of a loving God!
7. Nobody, realising that true happiness lies in a relationship with God, would want to go to Hell.
8. Given this, they would repent after death - why does God not accept their repentence?
9. Who would deliberately chose an eternity of pain? Once they realised the nature of Hell they would want to change their minds. Why would God not allow this?
10. Who are these odd beings - Satan and his mates - who rebelled against an omnipotent God and somehow did not realise they would lose!!!
11. And why, if they were living in bliss with God, would they wish to revolt? They would have no motive so to do. [Note: Free Will is not the answer, that just explains why a revolt was possible - the question is ‘what was the motivation?’ and no sensible answer is available.]

Now you could try the desperate ploy of saying, ‘God is infinite, we cannot understand his ways - please shut up’ yet he is supposed to have given us Reason and his ways are supposed to be, at least, not contrary to it.

But the much more likely explanation is the notion of Hell is incorrect.

In my limited knowledge I will answer some of your questions.

1. I think you’re tripping on the definition of Hell. Hell is absence of God. Some of God’s creatures CHOOSE to be absent from Him. They see Him at death and they flee from Him to this place called ‘Hell’. We only know a very little bit about Hell, just that which has been revealed in scripture and, for those who believe, in private revelation.
2. I don’t believe He IS happy about it. I don’t believe He’s willing to force ANYONE to be with Him though.
3. When you have one iota of sadness and otherwise are surrounded by happiness… which emotion will win out?
4. We do not understand the damage that sins on this earth do to our soul. That damage is what causes us to flee at the sight of Him. When you meet God you’ll understand what it’s like to be at the foot of the most perfect being in existance and yet to have a soul blackened by ‘finite’ sins. It is not the sin that makes you dirty, it is the intention behind the sin.

7,8. That is your understanding. There are many people on this earth who say; I’d rather have Hell then be told what to do. Perhaps there are people at death who say; I’d rather be tormented then be forced to be with you.

1. God is omnipotent. The Devil and his crew were not. They did NOT accept God’s power. My understanding is that Satan was the most beautiful of all the angels. Being cunning and vain he started to think he was as powerful, if not more so then God. So he rebelled and he coeerced others to think like he thought. Which is; why do I need God? I can do this on my own. I think once they had left heaven and once they realized just WHAT it was like without God they became so filled with anger that they turned their hatred towards God’s next creation - man.
2. See above. Vanity. Pride. You’re dealing with angels. Beings that have more power then we do, as they’re in the spiritual realm. If HUMANS sometimes think; why do I need God? I can do this on my own. Why wouldn’t a spiritual being do so? They have even MORE reason to feel powerful.

 

[inocente]

But the much more likely explanation is the notion of Hell is incorrect.

There may just be something wrong with the traditional view of Hell.

I once had clinical depression, which my doctor laughingly described as “mild”. It seems I was doing too much, and have been really careful to never let it happen again.

It’s a gray, desolate, hopeless state. Every thought is painful - the mind wants everything to stop. Some sufferers see suicide as their only escape. It is the Hell of all hells.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 27:46[/BIBLEDRB]
That expresses the exact feeling of abandonment caused by depression. It wasn’t, as some would say, that the Father turned His back on His Son for a moment. Jesus went into that hell of depression to atone for our sins. (Jesus willingly went to that hell for me.)

It is virtually certain that anyone in perpetual torment would soon go into depression, unless that state had perversely been amputated from the soul. We fear God because He is Almighty, but a god that would eternally forsake any soul in that state would be a sadistic monster beyond belief. The only alternative, infinitely more kind, would be for God to annihilate any soul unfit for Heaven.

Your wife would not be in Hell. You would morn her.

 

[JRKH]

I must say that none of the answers given, ingenious though they are, persuade me. But the question is just one of thee many that arise from the notion of Hell.

Well we are doing our best. I do think though that you are much more convinced of your own position than you are actually seeking to understand better. But - no matter. Regardless of how “convincing” we are right now, I hope the responses give you an opporunity to pray and reflect on then (assuming you pray)
As for your questions below - each one could be a chapter in a book - I’ll try to be brief.

1. Why would a good God allow a place of everlasting torment for his children who had gone astray?

Why would God allow it? Because there was no other choice. As another has already said Hell is basically the torment of being completely absent from God. Since the complete Absence of Perfect Good is the complet presence of perfect evil - torment follows.
It’s not God who “lets this happen” or is “happy about it”, it is we who cause it to happen.

1. If there were such a place how could he, a loving heavenly Father be happy with the situation?

This assigns emotions to God that may not truly exist in the way that we think of them. God is not “happy” about the fact that His children (many of them) reject Him. Yet he has too much respect for His Children to interfere with their free will and if they Choose to reject His offer of Salvation and being perfected in Love, what is left?

1. How could the other inhabitants of Heaven now morally perfect in his presence be happy either?

Being perfectly conformed to God’s Will, my answer above applies here as well

1. How is an eternal punishment comensurate with a finite crime?

Eternal punishment is NOT commensurate with a finite Crime. It is commensurate with an Infinite Crime. That crime is the rejection of God - blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.
And this Crime is the root cause of everyones confinement in hell.

1. The points of punishment are deterrence, reform, protection of the public, and ‘eye for an eye’. The last is superceded by the Law of Love, the second and third do not apply, and the first could be achieved by last drastic measures.

And all of these are applied by God to us during our sojourn on earth. IN this way He draws us toward Him. Yet for the person who rejects Him, none of these corrections will be recognized as such and, in so far as they are seen as “from God” they will be seen as “unjust”. That is the nature of the one who is not saved. Just as true in criminal law as in spiritual law.
Prisons are full of “innocent people” who are being “unjustly punished”. heck just listen to most people who get a simple traffic ticket and how they will rail agains the injustice of it.

1. Why not a finite punishment or extinction - eternal suffering is an affront to the notion of a loving God!

For many sins there is a finte punishment - either here on earth or in purgatory. As for eternity and extinction - God made the human soul as an infinite thing. It does not end therefore it will exist - eternally in the place it chooses.

1. Nobody, realising that true happiness lies in a relationship with God, would want to go to Hell.

The Key word here is “realizes”. They must realize it. The second key word is “relationship”. Is ti a realtionship only “convenient” to you or is it a relationship where God has a say in? Too many people choose the former. They don’t want to believe in God so much as they want God to believe in them.

1. Given this, they would repent after death - why does God not accept their repentence?

Those who choose hell do NOT repent after death. Their punishment only makes them madder at God it only makes them hate more. That is why hell is “self torture”.
God always accepts true repentance.

1. Who would deliberately chose an eternity of pain? Once they realised the nature of Hell they would want to change their minds. Why would God not allow this?

Have you ever known anyone who had a knack for making poor choices? And no matter how much trouble resulted it was always someone elses fault? They go from bad to worse, never happy always angry always vindictive, and semi-paranoid.

(cont)

 

[JRKH]

1. Who are these odd beings - Satan and his mates - who rebelled against an omnipotent God and somehow did not realise they would lose!!!
2. And why, if they were living in bliss with God, would they wish to revolt? They would have no motive so to do.

Single word answer to this - - PRIDE

[Note: Free Will is not the answer, that just explains why a revolt was possible - the question is ‘what was the motivation?’ and no sensible answer is available.]

Since you have already determined that there are no “sensible” answers, I suppose there is no longer a need to continue the conversation. I would hate to clutter up your nice neat belief system with a lot of “non-sensical” answers.

Now you could try the desperate ploy of saying, ‘God is infinite, we cannot understand his ways - please shut up’ yet he is supposed to have given us Reason and his ways are supposed to be, at least, not contrary to it.

I would never ask you to “shut-up”. What I might ask you to do is not to assume that answers taht don’t fit with your preconcieved notions are not sensible.

But the much more likely explanation is the notion of Hell is incorrect.

In this you might well be correct. It is entirely possible that the explanations given for hell, and for heaven for that matter are “incorrect”. Since How does an infinite and Loving God explain to His small and childlike, limited Creations relities that they cannot yet comprehend.
He does it in the same way that parents explain things to small children. In simple words and in terms that they can understand. Of course as a small child grows, these explanations may not suffice and new explanations, new understandings replace the old. This does not change the realities of things, only our understandings.
If a small child is told that lightening is caused by “clouds bumping together” and later finds out that this explanation is wrong, it does not change the realities of lightening or that it is dangerous.

I invite you to kkep questioning, but only if you are willing to seriously consider the answers you are being given.

Peace
James

 

[djeter]

davidv wrote (about Laurie): I believe you have convinced youself that you cannot be pursuaded and no matter how truthful any response may be, you will declare it false. And you will do this without a rational argument, only an appeal to emotion.​

Yes, davidv, Laurie has a propensity for this.

Laurie if you wish to explore the Church teachings on hell, as well as a review of scriptural references (Jesus, St. Paul) the early Church fathers… try this:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/09/28/the-population-of-hell-avery-cardinal-dulles/

Laurie is leading a merry obfuscation seminar on Natural Law and homosexuality (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=462003) that takes the same methodology: unless you are willing to concede the goodness of Homosexualism, your arguments are just so much bubble and froth. Why is that? Why Laurie KNOWS of this goodness and flourishing within the gay community. Here he will show you that no Catholic can be rationally happy.

dj

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, we can pray that Laurie’s eyes will be opened to the truth. He’s certainly had plenty of people explaining the truth to him, but there is none so blind as he who will not see.

Poor soul. He needs prayers since reason and logic are not helping him.

 

[clmowry]

A lot of answers… not one person mentioned the parable about Lazarus and the rich man?
Luke 16:19-31
It doesn’t answer the “why” part of why there is no bridge… but traditionally if you are in heaven it’s understood you are enjoying the “beatific vision” of God and His glory.

There are stories of saints communicating with those still alive on earth but the gap between heaven and hell is not bridged (for whatever reason) according to the Gospels.

I’m not so sure that Lazarus was in “heaven” so the parable may not apply.

On a side note: What do we really know about heaven? Are we sure there are no more tears in heaven? Do we have to be “tear free” to be “happy”?

My brother died in a car accident when he was young. When I think about it, it makes me sad.

Does heaven guarantee that his “premature” death will no longer make me sad? Does this have to be the case to make me “happy”?

I’m happy now, yet I have the knowledge of this unhappy event.

I don’t know if he is in heaven or hell now. It would certainly make me unhappy to learn he was in hell.

If I make it to heaven, does that mean I will forget I have a brother. “Accepting” that he deserves to be in hell would never make me “happy” about it. I can’t imagine that God would be “happy” about it or want me to be “happy” about it either.

In fact I don’t see how I could be ‘happy” about anyone being in hell. Does that mean we won’t know that hell exists?

On the flip side, If someone murdered my child and I wind up in heaven with my child and his repentant murderer, would my humanly need for “fairness” make me less “happy”?

Isn’t it possible that we will be allowed to morn our personal loses while still being able to worship our God in heaven?

Are the two mutually exclusive?

Chuck

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

First of all let me say thanks to Nicky39 and JRKH for taking the trouble to answer all my questions.

Perhaps you will excuse me if I only continue with three points because the topic will expand exponentially if I continue with them all. I will post on:
1] Why do most of the people, who will end in Hell, merit it?
2] Why cannot people in Hell repent and have their repentance accepted
3] Why would Satan rebel against an omnipotent God?

But first a comment about my motivation. Bertrand Russell once commented that Aquinas was a great philosopher but not a top rank one because other philosophers reasoned in order to find out the truth but Aquinas thought he knew the truth before he began writing. It is a bit rich to be told that I am stubborn etc by a Christian who is certain they have the truth and has something they call ‘faith’ which includes a decision to believe something whatever the evidence! I admit that I might be mistaken and would be willing to change if a strong enough argument came along – what about you Christians? Can you hand on heart say the same? Pots and kettles my friends!

1] Why do most of the people, who will end in Hell, merit it?
I am going to Hell if I continue as I am. So what have I done to merit this?
(i) I do not believe in God
(ii) I have done actions which I did not think were wrong, like using contraceptives, which turned out to be so.
(iii) I have done wrong things that I acknowledge to be so and have not asked for God’s forgiveness.
Let us now ask if any of these things merit eternal punishment.

(i) I have looked at the evidence for God’s existence and concluded that it is weak so I do not believe. Why is this culpable? Surely I am like one of the students I used to teach who, doing the best they can, get a maths sum wrong, whom I would gently show where their reasoning was amiss? And notice too. I do not reject God – I do not think there is a God to reject – a completely different matter.
(ii) The same applies here. It seems to me that using contraceptives is not wrong. Perhaps I am mistaken – but an honest mistake.
(iii) As for the wrong things that I have, being human, done I am very sorry for them and have tried to make amends where possible. I have not asked for God’s forgiveness because I do not think there is such a being.
[Of course, after death, finding that God did exist, of course, I would ask his forgiveness, which brings me on to the second topic.]

On this Nicky - you say:
We do not understand the damage that sins on this earth do to our soul. That damage is what causes us to flee at the sight of Him. When you meet God you’ll understand what it’s like to be at the foot of the most perfect being in existence and yet to have a soul blackened by ‘finite’ sins. It is not the sin that makes you dirty; it is the intention behind the sin.
I am not sure what you mean by the intention behind the sin. In fact my intention is not to do wrong – but being weak sometimes I fail. I realise that my sin would make me damaged goods compared to God which is why I would then ask his forgiveness. Now I cannot because I do not think there is such a being.

JRKH – you say:
That crime is the rejection of God - blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.
Well as explained I have not rejected God. Nor have I blasphemed against the Holy Spirit! Like many ordinary folk I have tried to lead a good life and honestly decided on the evidence that there was unlikely to be a God.

Must go now – will post on the remaining two topics tonight.

Laurie