How could I be happy?

[magdelaine1173]

It is unlikely that we can go much further since you are just as prone to believe as you do even when something “unlikely” is pointed out to you.
It has to do with a difference in our world-views.

I am glad to hear that you would like to believe in God. It at least provides a basis for a possible conversion, if not to christianity, at least to some form of theism.

I freely admit that I don’t have all the answers. No one does on this side of the veil. Not me and not you. The difference is that I started from the position (selfish I admit) that if God exists I don’t want to be on his bad side.
From that common and perfectly normal reaction, I have grown to understand a great deal more about God, His Love, His desires for us.
AND
That He wishes us to Love Him and each other.
That the real beauty is not looking at the idea of punishment (something useful for spiritually immature folks) but to look rather that the Love and the rewards (something more easily seen as we mature spiritually).

I feel sorry for people, believers and non-beleivers alike, who are always looking at the negative, the punishment aspect. It’s a waste of time. It’s like — If your trying to drive somewhere but all you can think about is danger at every turn, terrible accidents, bloody injuries, death and mangled steel. Such thoughts if dwelt upon could incapacitate a person so that they would never drive again.
The normal and healthy approach is to look at the goal, lay our the route, drive carefully and get there safe.
So to with the healthy spiritual life. Believe in God and Concentrate on the Goal (heaven); Lay out the route (Love); Drive carefully (avoid sin); and reach the Goal without fearing a crash (hell).
Note: another imperfect analogy.

Peace
I also love this analogy James. I ponder this approach as do you. If you choose to do well by others and yourself you will find happiness. If you wish to do badly by people you will not be in Heaven with God, let alone a spouse. And the loss of God’s love and His love but strict isolation from the spouse who does ill will to others is Hell in my mind.
Magdelaine1173

---

Lord make me an instrument of Your Peace

 

[JRKH]

Hello,

According to me, this hypothetical case is not tangible. If you are in heaven, your wife can’t be in hell. If you love Jesus, Jesus love you too and He also love all the person you love. Don’t you remember what our Lord said to this man who ask to Him :" who is able to do all that You say in order to be saved". And Jesus answers :" that is impossible for men but it is possible for God." If you love God, if you love your wife, God will love your wife : How could it be otherwise?

God bless

Certainly it can be otherwise for you overlook the other side o this “equation”

If “your wife” loves you but does not Love God
Love of God is the first and most important commandment according to Chirst. Failure to Love God, regardless of other considerations, will bar one from heaven.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Laurie wrote to JRKH: “You agree that a maths student who honestly gets his sums wrong is not culpable – so why am I if I am honestly wrong about God. You must understand this – I can no more MAKE myself believe in God than you could make yourself believe in the Loch Ness Monster. How can I be punished for not having a belief that I cannot acquire?”​

The math student analogy breaks down because it shows someone who is practicing a skill. Belief in God is a human yearning. At the beginning of his Confessions, Augustine writes, “You have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.” This statement is probably more quoted than anything else Augustine wrote, for here he captures a common human experience and the heart of man according to a Christian anthropology. There is no right or wrong here or faith as analogous to a skill, it is who we are.

The math student analogy does not apply to belief in God.

dj

Agreed - Taking a slightly different tack the analogy fails on it’s basic foundation.
Two students working on sums in math and getting different answers would be more akin to different Christians reading the bible and coming up with differing interpretations.

In the case of the math students, they already except that “math” exists and are studying the proper understanding of this thing that exists. not trying to determine if “math” exists in the first place. - Much different issue.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

JRKH
Forget the maths analogy , it is confusing us - get back to my simple question.

I have looked at all the reasons/justifications that people give for belief in God. I find them wanting. Of course I might be wrong but that is my honest opinion. In what way am I morally culpable as distinct from being not too hot on philosophy? And how can I be expected to believe something that seems to me to be false? Could you believe that the moon was made of green cheese even if this belief was something you might like to have?

Laurie

 

[davidv]

JRKH
Forget the maths analogy , it is confusing us - get back to my simple question.

I have looked at all the reasons/justifications that people give for belief in God. I find them wanting. Of course I might be wrong but that is my honest opinion. In what way am I morally culpable as distinct from being not too hot on philosophy? And how can I be expected to believe something that seems to me to be false? Could you believe that the moon was made of green cheese even if this belief was something you might like to have?

Laurie

The one way I see any of us morally culpable is when allow pride to stand between us and Truth.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH
Forget the maths analogy , it is confusing us - get back to my simple question.

fair enough.

I have looked at all the reasons/justifications that people give for belief in God. I find them wanting. Of course I might be wrong but that is my honest opinion.

OK - I respect that. I appreicate that you are keeping an open mind (if only open a crack) to the possiblility that you might be wrong. This is an important thing to remember.
You are basing your belief, you ropinion, on evidence that is not entirely conclusive, would you agree? After all much of the same evidence that convinces me there IS a God does not convince you. Same evidence - different conclusions.

Now how we interpret this inconclusive evidence can depend on what is at stake based on our conclusion. If the thing for which we have inconclusive evidence is of no great importance to us, our life, career, family etc, (like who will win the world cup) then whatever our opinion is is fine.
However, if what is at stake DOES directly effect us then we need to take that possible effect into our calculations.

To an extent this leads to the old “Pascals wager” idea, where I put it like this. If your right and there is no God then I lose nothing - but If I’m right and God does exist then you lose everything.
While I grant that this is an entirely selfish way to look at the issue of belief and faith, it is, none the less, the starting place for many people of faith. (Faith that is “self” motivated)
But that really gets into another thread subject relating to spritual growth.

In what way am I morally culpable as distinct from being not too hot on philosophy? And how can I be expected to believe something that seems to me to be false?

In looking at your situation as I’ve come to understand it, the moral cupability would be that you have chosen to view the evidence in a purely critical way and seek to have God prove himself to you - personally with greater signs and proofs than He has already provided.
I do see your culpability limited somewhat by the fact that you acknowledge that you could be wrong.

Also I think that your rejection of a “supreme being” is based on problems you have with how he is described by this or that faith tradition. The thing to keep in mind is that our inability to adequately describe something does not mean it does not exist. This is something I dealt with years ago and I came to some pretty fundemental conclusions that helped me sort things out.

Could you believe that the moon was made of green cheese even if this belief was something you might like to have?

Laurie

If I had inconclusive evidence on the makeup of the moon I could, conceivably, hold open the option that it is made of green cheese.
Perhaps a better analogy though would be the possiblility of intelligent extraterrestrial life. The evidence I have on this is inconclusive. Therefore I see no reason to assume that there is none.

In conclusion I have to say that until there is definitive proof that there IS no God, I’m not going to assume he does not exist.
Starting from this premise, the more I learn the more I believe He does exist, that He does Love me and that He does want me with Him in heaven.

peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

JRKH
Forget the maths analogy , it is confusing us - get back to my simple question.

I have looked at all the reasons/justifications that people give for belief in God. I find them wanting. Of course I might be wrong but that is my honest opinion. In what way am I morally culpable as distinct from being not too hot on philosophy? And how can I be expected to believe something that seems to me to be false? Could you believe that the moon was made of green cheese even if this belief was something you might like to have?

Laurie

You find them wanting. What exactly would it take for you to find a ‘reason to believe’? Would it be finding an explanation that ‘suits’ you, that makes sense to you?

Suppose you lived 2000 years ago and you actually met Jesus. You were a leper, doomed to wander ‘apart’ from all other nonlepers for the rest of your painful life. While walking with some other lepers, you saw a man whom you’d heard of. . .supposedly He could do miracles. You cried to Him, “Son of David have pity on me”. He looked at you and smiled. . .and you felt a great tingling and joy–and then you looked at the man next to you and he was whole! He was clean! You looked at your hands–they were clean! You were NO LONGER A LEPER! Your life was ‘yours’ again! In joy you ran to the priest who would 'certify you as clean. You went back to your ‘normal’ life.

There were 10 of you who were healed. And only ONE of you went back to THANK the man who healed you. All the rest went on, despite being graced with a MIRACLE. . .without thanks, without thought other than having THEIR LIVES BACK which they felt were ‘owed’ to them.

What would it take, Laurie, for you to truly believe?

 

[008]

Hello,

The most important way a husband can love his spouse is to do everything to get her and lead her to heaven. If your wife is in hell, you would have failed to carry out this very important mission.

I really agree with your point of view. If a husband love his wife and the most important sincerely love God, this husband should become a missionary of God for his own spouse. Sometimes, this mission may fail due to the fact the husband would have forgotten a side of his mission, or even all the mission.

God bless