How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[mardela]

Fact: Jesus is our savior, and because of him we can be saved. He is our salvation.
Fact: Eve brought sin and death into the world through her disobedience to God.
Fact: Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and The Life.
Fact: Jesus came into the world through Mary
Fact: Mary obeyed God by saying “Let it be according to Your Will”.

Conclusion: Through one woman came sin and death into the world. Through another came Life and Salvation.

Or do you deny that Jesus (our salvation) came into the world through Mary?

It seems quite hypocritical to me that you are able to read the bible and draw conclusions from it to support your beliefs, but when I do the same thing it’s not aloud.

And, no, I will not stop reading historical books and other literature, and only read the Bible. That leads to ignorance.

Lets look at this again.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

The one to Come= Jesus

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Who do think is the last adam, a life-giving spirit. = Jesus
what trying to say is don lean on your own understanding. Mary was not without sin she was just a very blessed women. we shouldn’t pray to her, talk to her, or treat her equal to the Jesus.
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Don’t let Mary or the Saints take the Glory and the love that is due only to the Son of God.
Through Jesus we will have eternal life.

 

[mardela]

As far as I know, and please anyone, correct me if I’m wrong, the Bible says nothing at all about the death of Mary. Does that mean she didn’t die?

People all over the world die but we don’t read about it. does it mean that they don’t die.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

We are born into sin and sin is death.

 

[Cavaradossi]

it is highly favored that you quote the bible. But i noticed that all your facts are not quotes from the bible but just your opinion.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Who made that Bible of yours? Did it fall out of the sky? There is an entire Tradition surrounding Christianity which predates the canonization of the Bible. You cannot interpret the Bible absent of the Tradition, as it you shall certainly lead yourself into error. Tell me, since the Tradition doesn’t matter, why isn’t the Gospel of Judas or the Gospel of Thomas part of the Bible? Shouldn’t you be reading those books as well? Nowhere in the Bible does it say what books are and what books are not canonical. So tell me, why are the heretical gnostic texts excluded from the New Testament? Here’s the answer: the very same humans who determined what books should be in the Bible are also the same humans who had received the Tradition of the Church from the Apostles, and that Tradition continues to this day, passed down through the generations through apostolic succession. Now tell me, how can you accept the Bible without accepting the Tradition which the Bible is a part of? That’s like saying that you accept that modern medicine works but that you deny the principles of modern medical science.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

…compiled and written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Church is the body of believers, and they make up the Body of Christ

Colossians 1:18, Romans 12:5 just to name a few— even Protestants and most Fundamentalists agree that the Church isn’t just the building that people gather in, but the body of believers…

So since it wasn’t just one man that wrote it, but multiple members of the Church wrote it, inspired by the Holy Spirit, it is correct to say that the Church compiled and wrote the gospels, because it was the Church as a whole that agreed on what was inspired scripture and what was not.

No one outside of the Church was inspired to write what is in the Bible.

If we are to apply this reasoning to this passage, then logically we must apply the same reasoning when reading John 1 in which it is written that Jesus is also full of grace. Doing so also makes Romans 6:14 a false statement, in which we are told plainly that sin cannot have dominion over someone under grace. However, you insist sin had dominion over Mary despite the fact she was ‘full of grace’, and this is a blatant contradiction.

Also, as the OP pointed out Mary declared that God has her savior, she didn’t say God was her future savior.

You are clearly prooftexting the Bible in order to make it fit what you want to believe.

Are you saying that anyone that is full of grace has never sinned?

 

[mardela]

Sad thing is that there are many Protestants out there that disrespect and malign the Blessed Mother because of several factors. The first being that they think that all of the ECFs, Doctors of the Church, and Catholics in general are just wrong because these same individuals feel that they and they alone know better and are the true pillar and foundation of truth and sole interpreters of Sacred Scripture.

Next is that they put limits on God because they cannot in their fallible, finite intellect cannot conceive that God has the ability to impart the gift and grace of a sinless state on any human being. They try to box Him in using the Bible as their only source to try and define a God that infinitely transcends the book itself. How sad to define you existence to the borders of a book alone and miss out on all of what Christ’s Church has to offer.

Next is if it is Catholic it is just plain wrong.

God Bless Mary what a wonderful women she was.
My Goal is to show everyone that you don’t place your trust in the Lord but rather Mary.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the Door to eternal life.
How i love Jesus with all my heart.

 

[mardela]

Who made that Bible of yours? Did it fall out of the sky? There is an entire Tradition surrounding Christianity which predates the canonization of the Bible. You cannot interpret the Bible absent of the Tradition, as it you shall certainly lead yourself into error. Tell me, since the Tradition doesn’t matter, why isn’t the Gospel of Judas or the Gospel of Thomas part of the Bible? Shouldn’t you be reading those books as well? Nowhere in the Bible does it say what books are and what books are not canonical. So tell me, why are the heretical gnostic texts excluded from the New Testament? Here’s the answer: the very same humans who determined what books should be in the Bible are also the same humans who had received the Tradition of the Church from the Apostles, and that Tradition continues to this day, passed down through the generations through apostolic succession. Now tell me, how can you accept the Bible without accepting the Tradition which the Bible is a part of? That’s like saying that you accept that modern medicine works but that you deny the principles of modern medical science.

Yes you can.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Tradition is our own understanding.
if you need understanding then pray to Jesus for understanding.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Are you saying that anyone that is full of grace has never sinned?

I’m saying that the phrase “full of grace” in english comes from two different greek phrases/words, and they each have different meaning.

 

[wmscott]

God Bless Mary what a wonderful women she was.
My Goal is to show everyone that you don’t place your trust in the Lord but rather Mary.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the Door to eternal life.
How i love Jesus with all my heart.

What in the world are you talking about

 

[Cavaradossi]

Yes you can.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Tradition is our own understanding.
if you need understanding then pray to Jesus for understanding.

No, Tradition is what has been passed down to us from the Apostles through the generations. Tradition is the deposit of faith, which we, the Orthodox Church believe that we have faithfully retained throughout the generations. What claim can you make to have a link to the teachings of the Apostles? For us, each bishop can trace his lineage of teaching back to one of the 12 apostles. Can you do that with your priests and bishops? When you say that Tradition is merely your own understanding, you trample on the blood and memory of the Holy Apostles and reject the very teachings of Christ upon which the Church and the Body of Christ was founded.

 

[mardela]

What in the world are you talking about

the love of Mary is so much that it distracts you from the truth.
Our love for Jesus should be more than we love our selves.

 

[mardela]

No, Tradition is what has been passed down to us from the Apostles through the generations. Tradition is the deposit of faith, which we, the Orthodox Church believe that we have faithfully retained throughout the generations. What claim can you make to have a link to the teachings of the Apostles? For us, each bishop can trace his lineage of teaching back to one of the 12 apostles. Can you do that with your priests and bishops? When you say that Tradition is merely your own understanding, you trample on the blood and memory of the Holy Apostles and reject the very teachings of Christ upon which the Church and the Body of Christ was founded.

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing?
Gal 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Deu 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

1Cr 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
1Cr 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Col 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
Col 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
Col 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
Col 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[wmscott]

the love of Mary is so much that it distracts you from the truth.
Our love for Jesus should be more than we love our selves.

You obviously know nothing of Catholic beliefs when it comes to the Blessed Mother. do you really think that we place the Blessed Mother above Christ. if so sad mistake.

 

[Shannon9791]

People all over the world die but we don’t read about it. does it mean that they don’t die.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

We are born into sin and sin is death.

But you say that if something is not in the Bible regarding Mary it didn’t happen. I’m just following your logic. You have no way of knowing by the Bible that Mary died, so you have to believe she’s still with us.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Oh good, now he’s not even posting he’s just throwing scripture at us. The truth shall set us free!!!

 

[mini_me640]

Oh good, now he’s not even posting he’s just throwing scripture at us. The truth shall set us free!!!

Because it’s not as if we Catholics actually read the Bible or anything… Or as if the Bible might be read aloud in our Masses…

 

[mardela]

But you say that if something is not in the Bible regarding Mary it didn’t happen. I’m just following your logic. You have no way of knowing by the Bible that Mary died, so you have to believe she’s still with us.

Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing?
Gal 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Deu 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

1Cr 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
1Cr 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Col 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
Col 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
Col 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
Col 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Ok. And who do you suppose wrote all of the Epistles which you have quoted above? God? No, It was the Apostle Paul. Now ignoring the fact that none of your quotes have anything to do with the validity of the Holy Tradition let me ask you, why are his Epistles in the Bible? Who decided that they should be there? Your view of the Bible is flawed. There was a time when the Bible had not yet been compiled. Eventually, a canon of books was decided upon, and those books became the Holy Bible; however, the Bible was merely formed out of the Tradition. The Church Fathers, in deciding which books should go into the Bible chose based upon whether or not the books were good representatives of the teachings of the Holy Tradition. You cannot accept the Bible and deny the Tradition for the Bible is merely part of the Holy Tradition. In doing so, you do not accept the true faith of Christ in its fullness.

 

[Shannon9791]

Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

AMEN!!!

However, this has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about. How’s about just for once you try to make a rational argument for your position?

 

[adstrinity]

You keep saying she was sinless, I’ll believe you if you can show me one verse in scripture that say’s clearly she was born of an immaculate conception and had no sin for the rest of her life and never consumated her marriage and didn’t have kids…

Show me one verse in the Bible where it says that She, SHE SPECIFICALLY, was born in sin.

Show me what the Bible says about Our Lady’s other children. Show me one verse that says anybody else is the child of Mary besides Jesus. Just one verse. Surely if She had other children, it would be in the Bible. Again, show me where it says “a son (or daughter) of Mary.” Just, show me in the Bible.

Act 8:31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Act 8:35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

You see we learn from the Bible specifically the teachings of Jesus Christ and if we don’t understand the words then we pray to Jesus for understanding. We can have someone explain to us but we still need to read the entirety of the Bible with an open mind.

But, they weren’t reading the Bible. Please keep that in mind, St. Philip was pointing out Jesus in the Old Testament…for all we know, he was pointing out Our Lady in the Old Testament, too…

God Bless Mary what a wonderful women she was.
My Goal is to show everyone that you don’t place your trust in the Lord but rather Mary.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the Door to eternal life.
How i love Jesus with all my heart.

If you place your trust in Mary, you place it in the Lord. Going to Mary means accepting God!

Because it’s not as if we Catholics actually read the Bible or anything… Or as if the Bible might be read aloud in our Masses…

…or we compiled it…preserved it…translated it…died for it…

 

[JonathonofOhio]

it is highly favored that you quote the bible. But i noticed that all your facts are not quotes from the bible but just your opinion.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

This is your argument? That because I stated some obvious factual teachings of the Bible without quoting any of the well known passages, it’s not worth your time to even think about it? I’m guessing here that what I said you can’t logically dispute without calling into question your own beliefs, so you just found a lame reason to flat out dismiss my argument.

Every time I say “Jesus is God!”, do I have to provide the necessary bible quotes to everyone so that I can prove He is? Isn’t is just sufficient to state the obvious without going into great detail? If you seriously need Bible quotes for any of those things I said, then you obviously know nothing about the Bible or what it teaches.

How about you prove to me that I am wrong instead of just dismissing my argument? Otherwise, move along then and don’t bother us with your warped teachings, and conflicting doctrines.