How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[JonathonofOhio]

Here is the begining of Ch. 3 of Proverbs, the first 5 verses:

“My son, forget not my teaching, keep in mind my commands;
For many days, and years of life, and peace, will they bring you.
Let not kindness and fidelity leave you; bind them around your neck;
Then will you win favor and good esteem before God and man.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not;”

Funny how mardela ignores the first verse. The father is telling the son to obey the father’s commands and teachings and not God’s! Oh no! Not man-made traditions! The horror!

and how much you want to bet, if mardela is in the U.S., he/she will go out this weekend and celebrate Independence Day, which is also a man-made tradition! Oh the horror!

 

[Cavaradossi]

See you don’t understand because you manipulate words. You add words, you take away words.

Read the Bible, Learn from the Lord.
I am simply pointing out scripture. I did not say I was God. I did not tell you how to interpret scripture. I simply put the truth before you but you rather point out things I didn’t say when you should be Praying to Jesus for understanding.

The Lord is Victorious in all his ways.
Even though you might not understand their are probably millions of people reading what i have posted, that understand. it’s not through me they understand but the Glory of Jesus Christ that they understand. We must submit to the Lord, trust in Him.
2Ch 30:8 Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.

Funny, I submit to the Lord as well through practices such as daily prayer, daily psalm readings, reading the Scriptures, fasting on every Wednesday and Friday as true Christians have done for the past 2000 years, attending Church, being repentant for my sins and (most importantly) I confess what we (Orthodox Christians) believe to be the true faith of Christ, Holy Orthodoxy. Because I do not subscribe to your ridiculous view that Scripture is the only source of Divine revelation, you now dare to tell me that I don’t serve the Lord? Only the Lord knows whether or not I am his servant, not you.

 

[Nevermore22]

Where did the Bible come from? When was it codified? What books were first listed as belonging in the Christian canon? How has the canon changed over time in various groups? What books were included in the first edition of the King James Bible? When did the Council of Jamnia take place, who were its members, and what did it do?

Before the Books of the Bible were canonized, how was the Gospel spread? Before the printing press was invented some one-thousand and five hundred years after Christ, how was the Gospel spread? How do the answers to these questions apply to the concept of “sola scriptura,” or the “Bible alone” as the rule of faith? What does 2 Peter 3:16 warn against? 2 Peter 1:20-21 says Scripture is of ___ ____________ _____________? What does the word “profitable” mean? In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, what does the word “profitable” mean? Does “profitable” mean “is sufficient for” in any dictionary? Was there a New Testament canon at the time Paul wrote that verse? If not, then what Scripture was he referring to?

What do 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 say about Tradition? When did this Tradition stop being in effect? What did Jesus mean when He told his followers to heed those who sat on the Chair of Moses in Matthew 23:2? What does that say about Jesus’ expectations for his followers to obey earthly authority?

What does 1 Timothy 3:15 indicate is the rule of faith? What do you believe is the rule of faith, and why?

The man to whom Jesus is speaking in Matthew 16:18-19: what was his name before those verses? What was his name after those verses? What does that name mean? What language did Jesus speak? What is the name given to this man in Jesus’ original language? What does that word mean? What other people in the Bible were given name changes? What did name changes signify in Hebrew life? What metaphoric object does Jesus give the man in Matthew 16:18-19? What does this symbolize? What did they symbolize in Isaiah 22? What are “binding and loosing”?

If Christ is a High Priest, and we are members of His royal priesthood, what are the offerings of each? If Christ is a High Priest forever, can his offerings have stopped? Did the fact that the Israelites were members of the royal priesthood negate the ordained Levite priesthood? Did the New Testament Church have bishops, elders (presbyteros, priests), and deacons or was it non-hierarchical? What is the rebellion of Korah mentioned in Jude 1:11? (hint: see Numbers 16:3) What does it mean that Jesus is a “High Priest after the order of Melchizedek”? In John 6:52-58, what is the meaning of the word “is”? In I Corinthians 11:23-30, why does Paul say some people become sick – and what does that indicate to you? Since Messiah has come, where today are the incense and “pure offering” offered up as predicted in Malachi 1:10-11? What is the root word of the word “priest”? What is the root word of the word “presbyter”?

How does Paul refer to himself in 1 Corinthians 4:14-15? In what way do the Apostles treat new Christians according to 1 Thessalonians 2:11? How does Paul refer to Isaac in Romans 9:10? How does John address his audience in 1 John 2:13?

What does I Peter 3:18-21 say baptism does? Whom does Acts 2:38-39 say that baptism is for? Whom does it indicate the promise of baptism is for? What does Colossians 2:11-12 compare baptism with? When were people circumcized to enter into the Old Covenant (i.e., at what age)? Did or did not Paul baptize entire households? In John 3:1-7, it says we are to be baptized in the Spirit and _______? In Whose name are we to be baptized according to Matthew 28:19? Do you believe something different about Baptism than what these verses teach? If so, why? How did the earliest Christians baptize according to the non-canonical writings of the earliest Christians (e.g., the Didache)?

PART I

 

[Nevermore22]

PART II

According to Acts 8:14-17 and Acts 19:5-6, what did Peter, Paul and John do in addition to baptizing? Do you believe that what they did is unimportant? If so, why?

What do Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9 say we should do with our sins? What authority was given to the twelve who were with Jesus in the Upper Room in John 20:21-23? What power was given speficially to Simon Peter in Matthew 16:19? What sort of ministry is described in 2 Corinthians 5:18? Do you believe something different than what these verses teach? If so, why?

How does James 5:14 describe how the elders (presbyters, priests) dealt with the sick? What did they use to help the sick? Does the faith community you’re involved with do this? If not, why not?

What does Matthew 19:6 say about marriages that are put together by God? Does your faith community teach something different? If so, why?

Mark 12:26-27 says that God is the God of what three people? What does it say about these three people (i.e., what condition are they in)? Is God the God of Abraham? Is God the God of the dead? How can he be both the God of Abraham but not the God of the dead but the living? What does Revelation 6:9-10 say about what the “souls of them that were slain” are doing? Where are those souls? What does Hebrews 12:1 say we are surrounded by? Who are they? What does this say about those who die in Christ? Does your faith community teach something different? If so, why?

What woman in Scripture gave birth to the man who was to rule all nations? Where does Revelation 12 say this woman is? What does the word “magnify” mean? In Luke 1:46-49, what does “magnify” mean? Who is the “Queen in Gold” of Psalm 45:10-17? In what ways does this Psalm make Luke 1:48 clear?

If Christ is the New Adam Christ (Romans 5:14-15, 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Corinthians 15:45), who is the New Eve? Who are the only two people in the Old Testament to have been without original sin from their first moments?

What three things did the Ark of the Covenant have within it (hint: see Hebrews 9:4)? What did Mary carry within her and in what ways are the contents of the Ark similar? Compare Luke 1:39-56 and 2 Samuel 6:2-16: in what ways are the Ark of the Covenant and Mary similar?

What is the Jewish “Mourner’s Kaddish” (or “Quaddish”) and why is it prayed? What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15? What does Revelation 21:27 say about the unclean? If you were to die right now, today, would you be clean enough to stand before Almighty God? For whom was Paul praying in 2 Timothy 1:16-18 and what was his condition at that time?

What does James 2:24 say about how we are justified? What kind of faith is mentioned in Galatians 5:6? Whom does Jesus say will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 7:21? What does Ephesians 2:8-9 say about the possibility of saving ourselves through works? What does that verse say we are saved by? Does your faith community teach either salvation by faith alone or by works alone? If so, why?

What does Hebrews 3:12-14 indicate about the possibility of departing from God? Under what conditions does it say we can be “partakers of Christ”? In what way does Philippians 2:12 say we should approach salvation? Do you approach salvation in this way? If not, why not? Are babies saved? Are 5 year olds saved? 19 year olds? At what point, if any, do the conditions for salvation change and how do your answers affect the concept of “once saved, always saved”?

What does Acts 7:51 say about the ability to resist the Holy Spirit? What does this mean in terms of the existence of free will? Does your faith community teach something different about free will? If so, why?

What does Luke 23:34 indicate about those who act in ignorance? What does Romans 9:15 indicate about the ultimate sovereignty of God?

Revelation 17:15-18 speaks of a whore which is “that great city.” What is this city according to Revelation 11:8? Where was Christ crucified?

How did the Jewish historian, Josephus, describe the Temple in Jerusalem that was destroyed in A.D. 70?

Why does Jesus say He came according to John 12:25-27? What is the nature of the Kingdom according to John 18:36? How long has this been the nature of the Kingdom according to Matthew 25:34? What do those three verses say to those who might believe Jesus came (and will come again) to set up an earthly kingdom? Does Galatians 3:7-29 differentiate between the “seed of Abraham” and the Church? Who is a Jew according to Romans 2:28-29? With whom is the New Covenant made according to Jeremiah 31:31-34? Are there people who say they are Jews but are not according to Revelation 2:9 and 3:9? Given these verses, are people properly referred to as “Gentiles” when they enter the New Covenant? Did God keep His promises to the ancient Israelites concerning the Holy Land according to Joshua 21: 43-45, 1 Kings 8: 56, Nehemiah 9: 7-8? Why did they lose their rights to the Holy Land according to Deuteronomy 28: 58-68?

What are the Talmud and Kabbalah? What does the Talmud say about Jesus Christ and Mary? How is modern Judaism different from the religion of the Old Testament?

What objects are described in 1 Kings 6:29? What about in Ezekiel 41:17-19? What does this mean in light of Exodus 20:4?

Did the religion of the Old Testament have a sense of sacred time, sacred space, and sacred objects? Is there anything in the New Testament that indicates the concept of consecrated things/places/times has changed? What media does God use to effect miracles in:

Joshua 3:15; 1 Samuel 4-6; and 2 Samuel 11-1?
Numbers 21:9?
2nd Kings 13:21?
Mark 5:25?
Acts 5:15?
Acts 19:12?

 

[Nevermore22]

PART III

What is the true relationship of the people described as “brothers” in: Genesis 11:26-28 and Genesis 14:14? In Genesis 29:15? In 1 Chronicles 23:21-22? In 2 Kings 10:13-14? In Deuteronomy 23:7 and Jeremiah 34:9? In Matthew 23:8? In John 20:17-18 and Matthew 12:49? In 1 Corinthians 15:6? Who is the real mother of “James, the brother of Jesus” according to your view of these verses: Matthew 27: 55-56, Mark 3:18, Mark 15:40, John 19:25, and Jude 1? What does “firstborn” mean (hint: see Exodus 13:2, Exodus 13:14-15, Numbers 18:15)?

What is “Easter” called in Latin? In Italy, France and Spain? What is it called in Germany, Sweden, and Denmark? What do Byzantine Catholics call it? What is the common root word for all these names? What does that root word indicate about the origins of the holy day known in English speaking countries as “Easter”?

Everyone wants to be part of a “New Testament-style Church” – but few are the people who read what the earliest Christians wrote! If worshipping and believing like the Apostles did are, indeed, what you want, then why haven’t you read thoroughly Sacred Scripture, the Didache (the first century “Teachings of the Twelve Apostles”), Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom, Augustine (all of him, not just the parts that, pulled out of context, seem to support various modern positions!), Hippolytus, etc. Even Origen and Tertullian give witness to what the early Christians believed… How can you know what the earliest Church was like if you don’t look? What is holding you back? If you read these early Christians’ writings, ask yourself: what Church today is like the Church they described? What Church today teaches Bible-based answers to the questions above?

Sorry, much longer than I thought!
And Jonathon, I think you are right!

 

[GaryTaylor]

You rantings are endless, nor do you wish to enter in actual dialogue, you condemn the Holy Apostolic Church which BTW is in the Bible stated by Paul in Corinthians, let alone the constant reminder of Apostolic Succession, or Peter in Acts and Matthew plus John. You refuse to acknowledge Luke,Mother of the Lord…GOD. Who could NOT be born of sin. All which you gloss over and conclude with… just read the Bible? And Mary was born of sin which is in CONFLICT of Jesus on the Cross. Wow you are certainly on a road which wouldn’t even be in context with the higher denominations of Protestants.

You made some outragous statements which BTW do not coincide with Scripture Context.

Funny you quote prophecy from the OT yet overlook Isaiah and his prophecy which btw completed the OT with the messianic prophecy.

Maybe its a misunderstanding??

 

[Usagi]

The Catholic religion is not apart of the Body of Christ.

Really? And your evidence for this is…?

Catholics acknowledge that Jesus is God come in the flesh. We regard Him as Our Lord and Savior of our souls from sin. We are baptized in the name of the Trinity as He commanded. We sacramentally consume His flesh and blood in remembrance of His sacrifice, as He also commanded. By His grace we carry out the Great Commandment and the Great Commission, trusting to His mercy when we fail.

By what measure do we not belong to the Body of Christ?

The Head of the Body of Christ is Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Catholics believe that the Pope is the head of the church

The visible head, because human communities tend to need leaders of some kind. We would never say that the Pope is head of the Church in a way that precludes Christ from being the true Head.

but the Bible never mentions the word Pope or Cahtholic(universal).

True but irrelevant. “Pope” is an affectionate nickname, a variant of “papa,” and comes from a language that did not exist when the Scriptures were being written. The actual office that the Pope holds is that of bishop of Rome, and episkopos (bishop or overseer) is most certainly a New Testament title for a Christian leader.

As for “Catholic,” the Greek phrase kata holos (out of the whole) does appear in the New Testament, in a passage describing how the Christian Church was drawn from all nations. The compound word katholikos does not seem to have been coined until after the Scriptures were written, though. Again, that doesn’t seem terribly relevant, unless there is something wicked about making up a word to describe the spread-out-everywhere nature of the Church. “Catholic” is used not because some pagan Romans wanted to unite all religions, but because it best describes the one faith that united Christians throughout the known world.

That is because the False doctrine is the Catholic religion not the Church(the Body of Christ). I could point out a lot of things that proves that this a false doctrine but my point is not to do that but simply to say that

You’ll want to start another thread with your evidence, but unless you start providing it, you’re going to have a hard time persuading Catholics (many of us having come from other Christian groups after much prayer and study of the Word) that we are not included in the Body of Christ.

Deu 18:19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.
Deu 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Again, amen. All these passages are Scripture for us, too. But you are going to have to do better than you have so far – and again, probably in a different thread – to persuade us that the condemnations in these verses apply to Catholics.

Deu 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Amen. We strive to worship in the way that God Himself has commanded.

Again, just posting these verses isn’t going to suddenly change our convictions. Of course a believer shouldn’t prophesy falsely, worship wrongly, or alter God’s commandments. But we don’t think we’ve done any of those things. We have the Bible too. Why on Earth would we be Catholics if we thought we were disobeying God by doing so?

Usagi

 

[mardela]

The Bible never mentions relying on Scripture alone or relying on one’s own understanding/interpretation either. But here you are doing it.

And just to let you know, while the books of the Bible were written by 100 A.D the Bible was not compiled until the end of 300 A.D. What did people do when there was no Bible? How did people survive, how did Christianity still flourish with no Scriptures?
And when we did finally have the entire Bible, only a very few could read it! You telling us to just read the Bible and trust God is completely contrary to what the early church did!

And what is the problem with the word Catholic? Is not the church which you are a member of, universal? Is is not in every nation, and is not every race, and nationalilty represented in it?

Yes it does say scripture alone.

Gal 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Just because they didn’t have the technology we do doesn’t mean they couldn’t read. People from the begging of time knew how to read. What about the ten commandments was that written for us only or for the Israelite people to.

The Bible probably was not yet compiled but the books had already been written and before they were written the actual apostle of Jesus Christ were teaching the people.

Lets look at the Author of the New Testament
Matthew = Matthew - A.D. 55
Mark = John Mark - A.D. 50
Luke = Luke - A.D. 60
John = John - A.D. 90
Acts = Luke - A.D. 65
Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon = Paul - A.D. 50-70
Hebrews = unknown, mostly likely Paul, Luke, Barnabas, or Apollos - A.D. 65
James = James - A.D. 45
1 Peter, 2 Peter = Peter - A.D. 60
1 John, 2 John, 3 John = John - A.D. 90
Jude = Jude - A.D. 60
Revelation = John - A.D. 90

You see the very same Saints that the Catholic church recognizes, their books make up the New Testament.
As for Universal- Today the word has been manipulated to mean many nations or people but in fact at the time the Roman Empire was collapsing and the need to find something that would bring them some sort of Glory and power. Hence the name “Universal Roman Forever”. They saw the popularity and love in the following of Jesus Christ but they also saw the hate for it. So they compiled the Catholic Religion based off a little of each Religion but Christianity being the foundation. When you add a little black paint to White Paint it is no longer white but Grey.

Look don’t take my word for it. Research it.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

mardela, this will be my second to last post on this thread. I am realizing that my goal (getting you to understand, not believe, but understand the Catholic Church’s position) is futile.

I to am leaving this thread. This conversation with you, mardela, has gone from you posting fallacious arguments to you flat out repeating lies about what the Catholic Church teaches (which we have all heard before). You have also posted claims that are not based on historical fact, and are purely fictional.

There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

mardela, this will be my second to last post on this thread. I am realizing that my goal (getting you to understand, not believe, but understand the Catholic Church’s position) is futile.

I too am leaving this thread. This conversation with you, mardela, has gone from you posting fallacious arguments to you flat out repeating lies about what the Catholic Church teaches (which we have all heard before). You have also posted claims that are not based on historical fact, and are purely fictional.

There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.

 

[adstrinity]

So, between 33 AD, when Christ died, and 55 AD, when, and, let’s go with your timeline, the first book of the Bible was written, NOBODY learned about Catholicism? The Traditions of Jesus didn’t spread?

And, has anybody else noticed, I think it was mardela’s post, where that poster said, 'Nuh-uh! The Catholic Church did NOT put together the Bible! So there!" Without any proof. That poster needs to be called out on that…

 

[Cavaradossi]

Yes it does say scripture alone.

Gal 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Clearly, the meaning of Galatians 3:5 is actually the opposite of what you want it to be, here it’s saying that the Spirit comes because of the hearing of faith, not because of adherence to the law.

The other two verses only tell us that we must preserve the faith as it was given to us by God, which, as Paul points out in II Thessalonians 2:15, includes oral Tradition. Neither of these say that the entire deposit of the faith may be found within the Bible, hence none of them support Sola Scriptura. You’re going to have to try harder than that.

 

[Usagi]

Yes it does say scripture alone.

No, it says the words or commands of God alone. You interpret that to mean a specific set of writings, but you certainly can’t get that from the Bible itself. The table of contents is not inspired. You have to trust other Christians guided by the Holy Spirit for that.

We agree, as you say, that even before the New Testament was written the apostles were preaching and teaching the truth. The whole conglomeration of what they taught and how they lived – some, but not all, of which was written down under inspiration in what we know as the New Testament – is what Catholics and Orthodox call Sacred Tradition. Not teachings that some men just made up, but the assumptions and understandings passed down from the original Christians that help us to understand the Bible within its context.

You see the very same Saints that the Catholic church recognizes, their books make up the New Testament.

Exactly! Do you think we don’t know this?

As for Universal- Today the word has been manipulated to mean many nations or people but in fact at the time the Roman Empire was collapsing and the need to find something that would bring them some sort of Glory and power. Hence the name “Universal Roman Forever”. They saw the popularity and love in the following of Jesus Christ but they also saw the hate for it. So they compiled the Catholic Religion based off a little of each Religion but Christianity being the foundation. When you add a little black paint to White Paint it is no longer white but Grey.

Look don’t take my word for it. Research it.

I have. You are mistaken.

Where are you getting these ideas? The ones about the origin of Catholicism, at least, can’t have come from Scripture, so please, show us your sources.

Usagi

 

[adstrinity]

FURTHER MORE, I WANT TO POINT THIS OUT:

In every instance where an angel identifies himself, he says, “Fear not,” first. Always. The ONLY place where this is NOT the case is when he greets Mary. He says to her, “Hail, Mary!” HE ADDRESSES HER AS A QUEEN!!! He then goes on to say, “Fear not yada yada yada,” but, not before HE, A SERVANT OF GOD WHO IS BEFORE THE HEAVENLY THROWN ALL THE TIME, renders the respect of the Woman to whom he is addressing, and, thus, recognizes that he, an angel, is BENEATH MARY.

Some here may want to read their Bibles and understand this.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I was talking to jonathanofohio, but let me ask you. These two phrases, do they mean that anyone that is full of grace has never sinned? This seems to be what jonathan is saying.

Well, all I can say is that possibly johnathan will be able to shift his focus to your question on his post. But to answer your question, I believe the two words are:

Luke 1:28, Charitoo
searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5487

John 1:14, Charis
searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5485

They mean different things because of the different verbs and different tenses!

Is there another usage of “full of grace” in Scripture?

from philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm —>

In other words, the perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present. So, here’s what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us “Kecharitomene” denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:

" ‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

 

[wmscott]

How often do you pray?
Count how many times do you pray to Mary or talk to Mary to intercede on your behalf.
Count how many times you pray to Jesus.

If the Answer is Mary then you have placed all your love and trust into Mary and not the Son of God.

when you pray or talk to anything that is not God through Jesus Christ. then you are playing with fire.

Exd 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exd 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
Deu 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God

How many times have you bowed down in front of the crucifix how many times have you bowed down to a statue of Mary or a Saint.

Mat 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Nice try, been there done that same old tired lame anti-Catholic rhetoric. In the days before I converted to Catholicism, I used to believe in these same falsehoods and distorted lies. I persecuted Christs Church and spread the lie you put forth above and all of the other ones that you can pull out of your anti-Catholic play book. You call yourself “Christian” but look at the lies you spread.

 

[mardela]

Back to the subject. a false doctrine has inflated a woman beyond the Saints, Beyond Sin, Beyond death, and equal to Jesus.

Exactly what the Lord of Lies, Deception, manipulation wants to accomplish. Just enough black mixed in with the White.

The Word of God and the Teachings of Jesus Christ never said to Pray, talk, or Bless the died.

Mary was never Assumed into Heaven only two men were assumed to Heaven. Enoch and
Elisha but in Revelations it talks about how they too will also die. Sin brings Death and all men are born into sin. Even the most perfect and sinless man had to die, Jesus Christ. He became sin. He took the sins of the world upon him, even Marys sins. He is All mankind’s Savior. He is the Door to eternal life, he is our mediator. But when God raised him from the dead he was no longer dead. So the only three men that have not died is Enoch, Elisha, and Jesus but Enoch and Elisha will die as it is written. But through Jesus we will live. Even Mary had to accept Jesus as her personal savior.
God bless Mary and the Saints but Mary and the Saints never wrote to pray to them maybe for them but not to them and definitely not to or for them after death. In the New Testament it is not written to pray to Moses,Enoch,Elisha,Samuel, to intercede for us.
In the New Testament all these prophets had passed away. So just as you pray(talk) to Mary or the saints you are in fact doing something that God told us not to do.

Get passed man’s tradition and learn Gods tradition.
Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[mardela]

Nice try, been there done that same old tired lame anti-Catholic rhetoric. In the days before I converted to Catholicism, I used to believe in these same falsehoods and distorted lies. I persecuted Christs Church and spread the lie you put forth above and all of the other ones that you can pull out of your anti-Catholic play book. You call yourself “Christian” but look at the lies you spread.

Well i never said i was a Christian or anything.

It’s posted that I’m a Believer in Christ.

Just by you posting what you did you have proven to everybody that you Hold onto the Catholic teachings more than you trust in our Lord Jesus Christ teachings.

My postings in the name of Jesus Christ has touched somebodies heart. They are searching for the answers.

Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you
Deu 4:29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Back to the subject. a false doctrine has inflated a woman beyond the Saints, Beyond Sin, Beyond death, and equal to Jesus.

Exactly what the Lord of Lies, Deception, manipulation wants to accomplish. Just enough black mixed in with the White.

Being sinless does not make Mary equal to Jesus.

You have been quite unreceptive to our explanations, goodbye. Please pray about John 17:21, and ask yourself how you’re helping to unite all Christians.

Also, I’m going to guess that you’re not a native speaker of english? Where are you from?

 

[Usagi]

Back to the subject. a false doctrine has inflated a woman beyond the Saints,

It is generally understood that Mary is the greatest of the saints, yes, because she was privileged to have the most important role a purely human being could have in the plan of salvation. Of course, just like the rest of us, whatever privileges or honors Mary was given were bestowed freely by God and not by any power or desert of her own.

Beyond Sin,

Saved from sin, as are we all, though in a more complete way.

Beyond death,

Actually very few people teach that Mary did not die. The definition of the Assumption leaves it open, but the common understanding in both East and West is that she did die, but that her body then vanished from her tomb and was taken straight to Heaven, just as all the dead in Christ will be at the Second Coming.

and equal to Jesus.

Absolutely not. You will never find a Catholic or Orthodox who would place Mary on such a level. Jesus is God. Mary is a creature. He made her, gave her everything that she is and has, and sustains her existence by His will. Compared to those of us still struggling on Earth, she and the other saints are in a highly glorified state – one that, again, we hope to share one day – but she and they are infinitely less than Jesus and can never be anything but.

Usagi