How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[mardela]

I love you guys and the time is very near. So i don’t mean to seem rude or mean. I love all the Saints and Mary.

Now i Said i love all the Saints because all those that believe in Jesus Christ and spreads his word are Saints.

Gal 1:12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
2Cr 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
Eze 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
Jhn 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jhn 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[mardela]

It is generally understood that Mary is the greatest of the saints, yes, because she was privileged to have the most important role a purely human being could have in the plan of salvation. Of course, just like the rest of us, whatever privileges or honors Mary was given were bestowed freely by God and not by any power or desert of her own.

Saved from sin, as are we all, though in a more complete way.

Actually very few people teach that Mary did not die. The definition of the Assumption leaves it open, but the common understanding in both East and West is that she did die, but that her body then vanished from her tomb and was taken straight to Heaven, just as all the dead in Christ will be at the Second Coming.

Absolutely not. You will never find a Catholic or Orthodox who would place Mary on such a level. Jesus is God. Mary is a creature. He made her, gave her everything that she is and has, and sustains her existence by His will. Compared to those of us still struggling on Earth, she and the other saints are in a highly glorified state – one that, again, we hope to share one day – but she and they are infinitely less than Jesus and can never be anything but.

Usagi

Hbr 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So even though most Catholics would never say Mary is equal to Jesus they will do things that suggest that she or the saints are equal. For instance; Praying, asking her to intercede for us. Jesus is our mediator, he intercedes for us to God the Father.
Jhn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
Jhn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name
Jhn 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name

 

[onenow1]

Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.

Hi, Rolla, a quick answer to your inquiry, even if this response has been furnished previously.

Well, since Jesus is God, and able to choose His own mother, I would say nothing is impossible for God, wouldn’t you agree, that He could have saved her ahead of time ? after all he did create Adam and Eve without sin ?

God Bless
:compcoff:

 

[mini_me640]

Hbr 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So even though most Catholics would never say Mary is equal to Jesus they will do things that suggest that she or the saints are equal. For instance; Praying, asking her to intercede for us. Jesus is our mediator, he intercedes for us to God the Father.
Jhn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
Jhn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name
Jhn 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name

So by this logic, do I make my friends equal to Jesus when I ask them to pray for me? Because that’s what we do with Mary and the saints, we ask them to pray for us.

 

[mardela]

So by this logic, do I make my friends equal to Jesus when I ask them to pray for me? Because that’s what we do with Mary and the saints, we ask them to pray for us.

The difference in that is, when we ask somebody to pray for us they are alive and when they do pray, they are directing their prayers to Jesus Christ.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

There are many examples in the Bible of how we ask people to pray for us but in the Bible they are referring to people that were alive at the time. for example in the New Testament it is not written to pray to moses, or enoch or elisha. The other thing is we don’t pray to our friends but for them. We can’t ask the dead to intercede for us. Jesus is alive and more importantly God said to pray to God the Father, approach God the Father with boldness through his mediator his intercede Jesus Christ his Son.

 

[mardela]

Luk 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
Luk 1:49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me–holy is his name.

Even Mary Says she is Blessed not full of Grace not sinless.
We should do exactly as she said, “Generations will call me blessed” nothing more.
Mary recognizes that God is Holy not her.

 

[onenow1]

Those who deny that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of GOD, the onus upon you to back up what you charge with facts. By denying motherhood of GOD, you have only two choices:

Either Jesus Christ is not GOD, or another woman was His mother.

Peace
:compcoff:

 

[mardela]

Mat 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Mat 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mat 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

See it is written about Jesus but not about how Mary is the Mother of God. God didn’t speak from the heavens about Mary, the Spirit of God did not descend like a dove on Mary.
Did the Angels ever attend to Mary?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Luk 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
Luk 1:49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me–holy is his name.

Even Mary Says she is Blessed not full of Grace not sinless.
We should do exactly as she said, “Generations will call me blessed” nothing more.
Mary recognizes that God is Holy not her.

And where does the Bible say that she is sinful or that she hasn’t been made Holy by her willful submission to God? So what you mean to say is that when the Scripture doesn’t comment on something, then that automatically makes your belief correct. Utter nonsense.

 

[onenow1]

Mat 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Mat 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mat 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

See it is written about Jesus but not about how Mary is the Mother of God. God didn’t speak from the heavens about Mary, the Spirit of God did not descend like a dove on Mary.
Did the Angels ever attend to Mary?

Hi Maradela
The spirit of God overshadowed Mary, Jut as the Spirt of God over the Waters in Genesis.

Peace

 

[mardela]

And where does the Bible say that she is sinful or that she hasn’t been made Holy by her willful submission to God? So what you mean to say is that when the Scripture doesn’t comment on something, then that automatically makes your belief correct. Utter nonsense.

the states that we are all sinners. sin brings death and Jesus had die to take all sin upon him.
Hbr 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

You see i could keep quoting but you have to understand that it says plainly that he died for all sinners he didn’t make exceptions he didn’t say except for the sinless.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

the states that we are all sinners. sin brings death and Jesus had die to take all sin upon him.
Hbr 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

You see i could keep quoting but you have to understand that it says plainly that he died for all sinners he didn’t make exceptions he didn’t say except for the sinless.

We have already sufficiently refuted your claims that these passages prove that Mary sinned. You have made assumptions about Mary based on fallacy, and misunderstanding of sacred scripture. Now this is just argumentum ad nauseam. Your doggedness speaks volumes. I will not waste another breath on you until you start using the brain that God gave to you.

 

[Cavaradossi]

the states that we are all sinners. sin brings death and Jesus had die to take all sin upon him.
Hbr 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

You see i could keep quoting but you have to understand that it says plainly that he died for all sinners he didn’t make exceptions he didn’t say except for the sinless.

You misunderstand how sin brings death. Adam and Eve brought death into the world because they, as the pinnacle of creation, disobeyed God and in so doing brought death to themselves and the rest of creation. God, in the incarnation destroyed death and redeemed the whole of mankind. As Jesus was fully human and fully divine, the perfect union of his humanity with his divinity redeemed mankind and provided for our salvation through theosis. This salvation is not some sort of vulgar replacement where Christ was sacrificed by the wrathful Father because God the Father demanded some sort of retributive sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, no it was God’s loving outreach to us to show us the way to salvation. Of course, you would only know this if you understood the patristic interpretation of the Bible, which you do not.

But that is beside the point. None of these verses prove that Mary’s natural death was a result of having sinned in her life. One will still suffer death as a consequence of the fallen state of the world, not because of one’s own sins. So now I want you to show me exactly what verse tells us that Mary sinned. Where is it?

 

[mardela]

If Mary was ordained by God and she was sinless, Holy a Saint, then Jesus would have had high respect for her right. I mean the mother of God; i know i respect my mother.

Look at these scriptures

Mat 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
Mat 12:47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
Mat 12:48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Mat 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

You see even Jesus look upon her as an ordinary women. He even said, “whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Does that mean all women are the mother of God or that Mary was not the Mother of God but Mother of Jesus Christ in the Flesh. Remember the Holy Spirit of God did not descend onto Jesus until after he was baptized. This is why Mary was never referred to as a Saint, prophetess, Holy, Mother of God or Sinless she was a Blessed women. Who lived with her husband and gave birth to more Children. She lived and died as a woman. Give all your love and attention to Jesus Christ. Say all your prayers to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for us, he is sharing his inheritance with us; Eternal Life.
I love Mary and the Saints but they taught us to love, praise and worship the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[mardela]

You misunderstand how sin brings death. Adam and Eve brought death into the world because they, as the pinnacle of creation, disobeyed God and in so doing brought death to themselves and the rest of creation. God, in the incarnation destroyed death and redeemed the whole of mankind. As Jesus was fully human and fully divine, the perfect union of his humanity with his divinity redeemed mankind and provided for our salvation through theosis. This salvation is not some sort of vulgar replacement where Christ was sacrificed by the wrathful Father because God the Father demanded some sort of retributive sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, no it was God’s loving outreach to us to show us the way to salvation. Of course, you would only know this if you understood the patristic interpretation of the Bible, which you do not.

But that is beside the point. None of these verses prove that Mary’s natural death was a result of having sinned in her life. One will still suffer death as a consequence of the fallen state of the world, not because of one’s own sins. So now I want you to show me exactly what verse tells us that Mary sinned. Where is it?

See you continue to add words to what i didn’t even say.

but it was not necessary for me to quote the entire Bible.
And yes these Scriptures do because they are referring to all man kind. That is Mary included.

 

[Cavaradossi]

See you continue add words to what i didn’t even say.

but it was not necessary for me to quote the entire Bible.
And yes these Scriptures do because they are referring to all man kind. That is Mary included.

No, they are not sufficient. None of those scriptures say that we bring death to ourselves through sin, nor do they say that Mary was not sinless; they merely comment on how Christ has redeemed us from our sins. Death is in this fallen world regardless of how much or how little you sin, and it will remain that way until the resurrection. You have not proven that Mary actually sinned, while we have told you that the Holy Tradition passed down to us from the Apostles says that she was sinless. The onus is on you to prove where the Bible contradicts the Holy Tradition and yet you cannot do it. Do you know why? It’s because the Bible is not the sole deposit of faith, and the sooner that you recognize that, the better off your soul shall be for it.

 

[mardela]

Luk 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

Anxious = Uneasy and apprehensive about an uncertain event or matter; worried.

Luk 2:49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
Luk 2:50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

See even Mary said, “treated us like this”. If Jesus knew she was the Holy Mother of God why would he disrespect his mother.

They didn’t even understand that when he said,“Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
he was talking About God the Father. Wouldn’t the Mother of God know the answers. no she couldn’t because she was a ordinary woman that the Catholic Church has changed into a deity.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

maldela, It is like beating a dead horse talking to you. It gets no one anywhere. There is no reasoning with you because you have placed yourself on a pedestal, looking down on us as if we need your help-- as if we need you to save us from the Catholic Church. You make no effort to understand our point of view, and speak boastfully about things that you apparently do not understand.

We have given every effort to get you to THINK, so that we can have a reasonable debate with you. There is no reasoning with you, because you are unreasonable…most of your arguments fail basic logic tests.

 

[mardela]

No, they are not sufficient. None of those scriptures say that we bring death to ourselves through sin, nor do they say that Mary was not sinless; they merely comment on how Christ has redeemed us from our sins. Death is in this fallen world regardless of how much or how little you sin, and it will remain that way until the resurrection. You have not proven that Mary actually sinned, while we have told you that the Holy Tradition passed down to us from the Apostles says that she was sinless. The onus is on you to prove where the Bible contradicts the Holy Tradition and yet you cannot do it. Do you know why? It’s because the Bible is not the sole deposit of faith, and the sooner that you recognize that, the better off your soul shall be for it.

What your asking me to do is to find all the answers for you. If i had the time i would show you every scripture that will pick apart everything you say but what good what that do you. If you really want the answers you will read the entire Bible over and you will seek Jesus for the understanding of his word.

And by the way Jesus died on the cross and God resurrected Jesus from the Dead.
I have you ever heard the term Born Again?

 

[Cavaradossi]

What your asking me to do is to find all the answers for you. If i had the time i would show you every scripture that will pick apart everything you say but what good what that do you. If you really want the answers you will read the entire Bible over and you will seek Jesus for the understanding of his word.

And by the way Jesus died on the cross and God resurrected Jesus from the Dead.
I have you ever heard the term Born Again?

No, you’ve shown us that you have plenty of time on your hands to repeat the same old scriptural arguments against us over and over again, even after we’ve shown you how you’ve consistently misinterpreted the Holy Scriptures and taken many verses out of context. You will not do what I’ve asked you to do because you cannot do it.