How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[JonathonofOhio]

have you ever heard the term Born Again?

This question is off topic and should be put in a new thread. You may start a thread and ask us Catholics if we have heard of this term and we will answer.

 

[mardela]

It is like beating a dead horse talking to you. It gets no one anywhere. There is no reasoning with you because you have placed yourself on a pedestal, looking down on us as if we need your help-- as if we need you to save us from the Catholic Church. You make no effort to understand our point of view, and speak boastfully about things that you apparently do not understand.

We have given every effort to get you to THINK, so that we can have a reasonable debate with you. There is no reasoning with you, because you are unreasonable…most of your arguments fail basic logic tests.

And it doesn’t matter that you don’t think it was sufficient, because reality is NOT based on what you personally believe.

Psa 34:2 My soul will boast in the LORD; let the afflicted hear and rejoice.
Psa 44:8 In God we make our boast all day long, and we will praise your name forever. Selah
Jer 9:24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
1Cr 1:31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

 

[mardela]

You want to know why I am stubborn and won’t debate?

Deu 8:19 If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.
Deu 11:16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them.
Deu 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

I Fear God.

 

[Rolla]

maldela, It is like beating a dead horse talking to you. It gets no one anywhere. There is no reasoning with you because you have placed yourself on a pedestal, looking down on us as if we need your help-- as if we need you to save us from the Catholic Church. You make no effort to understand our point of view, and speak boastfully about things that you apparently do not understand.

We have given every effort to get you to THINK, so that we can have a reasonable debate with you. There is no reasoning with you, because you are unreasonable…most of your arguments fail basic logic tests.

I think that Maldela has given a more than reasonable Biblical explanaion to refute much of what Catholicism has attributed to Mary. Even Cardinal Strossmeier himself once stated that the Catholic church had made a goddess out of Mary. Now I know many good Catholic people who love God with their whole heart without question, but they also are not aware of much of the theology of their own church that surrounds them.

 

[Rolla]

This is what we refer to as a Straw Man argument. No where was it ever stated or implied in Nevermore22’s comment that Mary created a diety.

You clearly are trying to avoid answering by attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent’s position.

Please state from scripture how what Nevermore22 actually wrote is false, or admit defeat and move on.

I’m saying that calling Mary the mother of God is not possible. God is Trinity would you not agree? If mary is the mother of God, then she would be the mother of the Trinity. This is NOT possible. Mary is not the creator of diety.

 

[Rolla]

FURTHER MORE, I WANT TO POINT THIS OUT:

In every instance where an angel identifies himself, he says, “Fear not,” first. Always. The ONLY place where this is NOT the case is when he greets Mary. He says to her, “Hail, Mary!” HE ADDRESSES HER AS A QUEEN!!! He then goes on to say, “Fear not yada yada yada,” but, not before HE, A SERVANT OF GOD WHO IS BEFORE THE HEAVENLY THROWN ALL THE TIME, renders the respect of the Woman to whom he is addressing, and, thus, recognizes that he, an angel, is BENEATH MARY.

Some here may want to read their Bibles and understand this.

I have to tell you that your statement is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

 

[hoop0826]

Just trying to pull this thread back to the original topic…

I was thinking that Mary is only sinless because God had saved her from the effects of Original Sin. So in a sense, if God had not intervened and saved her from it, she would have been born into Orginal sin as well.
The Saints in Heaven are sinless - as there is no sin in Heaven, and they became sinless by the saving power of Jesus Christ, but the way in which that grace was imparted on them is different.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I’m saying that calling Mary the mother of God is not possible. God is Trinity would you not agree? If mary is the mother of God, then she would be the mother of the Trinity. This is NOT possible. Mary is not the creator of diety.

She is called Mother of God because she was instrumental in the incarnation of the Son. She did not create God, but she did bring God into this world in human form.

 

[Rolla]

She is called Mother of God because she was instrumental in the incarnation of the Son. She did not create God, but she did bring God into this world in human form.

So she is therefore the mother of God the son. Jesus Christ.

 

[Rolla]

I was thinking that Mary is only sinless because God had saved her from the effects of Original Sin. So in a sense, if God had not intervened and saved her from it, she would have been born into Orginal sin as well.

So here we go back around the horn again. Show us evidence that proves any of this

 

[JonathonofOhio]

You want to know why I am stubborn and won’t debate?

Deu 8:19 If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.
Deu 11:16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them.
Deu 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

I Fear God.

1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and** stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry**. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, He hath also rejected thee from being king."

 

[Rolla]

1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and** stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry**. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, He hath also rejected thee from being king."

Have some mercy on this poor person who has only bravely stood by their convictions will you? It’s like one person here has an opinion which may be contrary to Catholic doctrine and they get attacked by a pack of wild dogs over it. Sheesh.

 

[Cavaradossi]

So she is therefore the mother of God the son. Jesus Christ.

Yes, so then what’s the problem with the term mother of God? Do you wish to imply that God the Son is somehow not coequal to the other members of the Trinity? I think now you just want to play semantics because you have been rather soundly proven to be wanting in your understanding of Christianity.

 

[Rolla]

Yes, so then what’s the problem with the term mother of God? Do you wish to imply that God the Son is somehow not coequal to the other members of the Trinity? I think now you just want to play semantics because you have been rather soundly proven to be wanting in your understanding of Christianity.

Your condescent is not taken kindly nor is it accurate. You are well aware that Mary is the mother of God made incarnate. Jesus Christ our savior. She is not the mother of God the creator or God the sanctifier. Can you prove that to be untrue? I think not…

 

[Cavaradossi]

Have some mercy on this poor person who has only bravely stood by their convictions will you? It’s like one person here has an opinion which may be contrary to Catholic doctrine and they get attacked by a pack of wild dogs over it. Sheesh.

There are plenty of points on which I disagree with my fellow Catholic posters here, and I have, since joining, rather tirelessly confessed my faith for them to see (along with some of my other fellow Orthodox posters). Stubbornly quoting, however, the same verses which provide dubious support at best for one’s position and then dismissing all other interpretations with the same verse over and over (the verse that tells people not to interpret scripture for themselves, ironically enough) is the wrong way to do it.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Your condescent is not taken kindly nor is it accurate. You are well aware that Mary is the mother of God made incarnate. Jesus Christ our savior. She is not the mother of God the creator or God the sanctifier. Can you prove that to be untrue? I think not…

What is God the sanctifier or God the creator? All members of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a role in creation and they all have a role in salvation. I don’t think you have the same understanding of the Trinity that I do.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I think that Maldela has given a more than reasonable Biblical explanaion to refute much of what Catholicism has attributed to Mary. Even Cardinal Strossmeier himself once stated that the Catholic church had made a goddess out of Mary. Now I know many good Catholic people who love God with their whole heart without question, but they also are not aware of much of the theology of their own church that surrounds them.

“more than reasonable”? Since when does reason coexist with contradiction? How is something illogical reasonable? I guess to the unlearned and unreasonable, maldela’s statements make sense. Then again so would the ramblings of a mad man be sufficient enough explanation if it was something that sounded like it agreed with your doctrine.

It doesn’t matter that you believe we haven’t proved sufficiently the error in your doctrine, because reality is NOT based on what you believe.

Now I know many good Catholic people who love God with their whole heart without question, but they also are not aware of much of the theology of their own church that surrounds them.

This is you opinion, and is not based on fact. You do not have insight as to what other people know or understand about their faith. You are not a clairvoyant. This is both rude and offensive.

 

[Rolla]

What is God the sanctifier or God the creator? All members of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a role in creation and they all have a role in salvation. I don’t think you have the same understanding of the Trinity that I do.

Well, God is creator, redeemer and sanctifier and all having those unique roles in three seperate persons coming together as one unified God., but my point is that God is Trinity and if Mary is plainly the mother of God, then she would have to be the mother of the Trinity as well and we know that this isn’t true. There has to be a distinction on which person of God she is the mother of. This is where it is so helpful to use the word “incarnate”.

 

[Rolla]

“more than reasonable”? Since when does reason coexist with contradiction? How is something illogical reasonable. You would say the ramblings of a mad man were sufficient enough explanation if it was something that sounded like it agreed with your doctrine.

I am dismissing this as just your rants.

It doesn’t matter that you believe we haven’t proved sufficiently the error in your doctrine, because reality is NOT based on what you believe.

And your rants against Scripture and those who love and know God through his word are despicable.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Well, God is creator, redeemer and sanctifier and all having those unique roles in three seperate persons coming together as one unified God., but my point is that God is Trinity and if Mary is plainly the mother of God, then she would have to be the mother of the Trinity as well and we know that this isn’t true. There has to be a distinction on which person of God she is the mother of. This is where it is so helpful to use the word “incarnate”.

So you are truly nitpicking with semantics. I tell you, she is properly known as mother of God because she bore God the Son into the world not only in full humanity but in full divinity. The title has nothing to do with her bringing the Trinity into the world but rather to emphasize that she brought a member of the Trinity into the world in his full divinity.