How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

[Freddy]

Freddy:

There will be a point (if we reach it) where everything will be understood. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.

I have a doubt about at least one thing. The center of black hole. The data that comes from a singularity. Will humans ever be able to enter into a black hole and retrieve data from the singularity?

I think we’ll be able to make them, which kinda amounts to the same thing. Bit of reverse engineering…

 

[EndTimes]

Pattylt:

You’re very right but from everything I’ve read, there is still a wall of ignorance of “before” that just isn’t known. Doesn’t physics break down at the BB? Can you direct me to any information of knowledge as to what “before” could possibly be? I’d appreciate it.

Oh the theories at hand break down even before the big bang

@PattyIt

IF we allow the Big Bang to have occurred at 0 time,
our understandings break down at 1 Planck Time After the Bang
that is … at 10 raised to the minus 43 seconds After the Big Bang

From the Big Bang to Planck Time - nothing is known of that period.

 

[EndTimes]

You’re very right but from everything I’ve read, there is still a wall of ignorance of “before” that just isn’t known. Doesn’t physics break down at the BB? Can you direct me to any information of knowledge as to what “before” could possibly be? I’d appreciate it.

Yes.

IF we allow the Big Bang to have occurred at 0 time,
our understandings break down at 1 Planck Time After the Bang
that is … at 10 raised to the minus 43 seconds After the Big Bang

From the Big Bang to Planck Time - nothing is known of that period.

 

[EndTimes]

Aristotle conceives potency as what is able to be, but is not; act is that which is fully real or completed. Something that is not cannot become real on its own, thus a potency becomes actualized or realized from an acting agent. For example, hot coffee has the potency to turn cold, so air (say from a cold day) can cool the coffee. Thus the cold coffee becomes actualized as a result of the cold wind.

got it and thanks

God Created Creation via His Creative Will as we know it from Genesis…
which includes a unique degree of freedom from His Influence for e.g., Angels & Man
This there is called God’s Permissive Will

What Angel and Man could potentially do with this freedom could be said to be endless.
We know what Man did via the Devil in Eden and much more from History
and from Prophecy - some of what shall occur in our Future -

God Knows what occurs … and His Knowledge is not what caused all of what occurred and shall occur

_

 

[Michaelangelo]

Two words: not correct.

 

[EndTimes]

Two words: not correct.

That’s 4 words…

And it holds zero water unless you can overcome it with Reasoned Supportive Argumentation

God Created Creation via His Creative Will as we know it from Genesis…
which includes a unique degree of freedom from His Influence for e.g., Angels & Man
This there is called God’s Permissive Will

What Angel and Man could potentially do with this freedom could be said to be endless.
We know what Man did via the Devil in Eden and much more from History
and from Prophecy - some of what shall occur in our Future -

God Knows what occurs … and His Knowledge is not what caused all of what occurred and shall occur

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Except for the people who say “Vishnu created the world” or “Amaterasu created the world”. There is more to theism than the Abrahamic religions; the people who believe in all those gods and goddesses about whose existence Christians agree with atheists.

I could call you rossum, or Bob, or Jill, that does not change who you are.

You are who you are, it just means my understanding of who you are is incomplete.

Regardless of what we call God, he is who he is.

However, the intention of this thread was to ask, how could the universe come into existence without God. There seems to be a general consensus that there is no real proof either way.

If that is the overall feeling, I wonder if we might move onto the second part of the thread, “where is the science to show how life could come into existence by natural causes”

 

[rossum]

However, the intention of this thread was to ask, how could the universe come into existence without God. There seems to be a general consensus that there is no real proof either way.

That depends on your definition of “universe”. The philosophical All That Exists (ATE) universe does not depend on any existing cause for its origin, hence it does not depend on Vishnu.

If that is the overall feeling, I wonder if we might move onto the second part of the thread, “where is the science to show how life could come into existence by natural causes”

God cannot be the cause of life, since God is Himself alive and He did not cause Himself.

As for material life, abiogenesis is still a work in progress. There are some answers, but many questions remain unanswered. There is, so far no evidence of the miraculous creation of, say purines, by Vishnu. There is evidence of purines being formed by natural causes.

There is certainly a gap in science here, a gap which science is working to close. Trying to fit any god into such a gap is dangerous; as the gap closes the god has to get smaller to fit. Zeus and Thor once fitted into the gap called “What causes thunder and lightning?” The closure of that gap meant they had to retrain as comic book heroes.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Given your zero point you are off by eleven orders of magnitude for when our current physics breaks down.

 

[o_mlly]

God cannot be the cause of life, since God is Himself alive and He did not cause Himself.

?

If I am alive then I cannot be the cause of my children. False.

If God is eternal then He is the cause of His own life.

God is eternal.

Therefore, God’s essence is to exist.

“I am Who am”.

 

[rossum]

If I am alive then I cannot be the cause of my children. False.

Then God is not the cause of life, because you can also cause life, which makes God a cause of life.

If God is eternal then He is the cause of His own life.

If God is eternal then He is uncaused; as per the Kalaam argument. Since God is uncaused then the life of God is also uncaused, unless you are telling us that God started out unliving and later made Himself alive?

God is eternal.

So the life inherent in the living God is also eternal and also uncaused. God did not cause His own life.

 

[o_mlly]

Then God is not the cause of life, because you can also cause life, which makes God a cause of life.

I am the secondary cause of life. God is the primary cause.

Since God is uncaused then the life of God is also uncaused, unless you are telling us that God started out unliving and later made Himself alive?

God, being eternal, can have no start.

So the life inherent in the living God is also eternal and also uncaused.

Yes.

God did not cause His own life.

God’s essence is His existence. He is the necessary uncaused being.

 

[BT3241]

God is based on Faith and science which is the search for the truth believe it or not is still working on it.

Neither can be proven.

 

[goout]

o_mlly:

If I am alive then I cannot be the cause of my children. False.

…because you can also cause life, which makes God a cause of life.

No, one human being cannot will another into being. That’s why we call what human beings do “pro-creation”, not direct willed creation.
We participate in the process in many facets and ways, but we do not will a specific and unique being into existence.

 

[rossum]

God, being eternal, can have no start .

Hence life has no start. Thus life did not have a cause. Hence God cannot be the cause of life. That which has no start cannot have a cause.

All claims that God caused the first life are incorrect. God is in the same position as other living things, He is a secondary cause of life.

 

[o_mlly]

Hence life has no start.

Uncreated life has no start.

Thus life did not have a cause.

Thus uncreated life did not have a cause.

That which has no start cannot have a cause.

Yes.

All claims that God caused the first life are incorrect.

All claims that God caused the first created life are correct.

God is in the same position as other living things,

Uncreated life is different in kind to created life.

He is a secondary cause of life.

God is the primary cause of created life.

 

[Gab123]

An atheist could likewise ask “where is the science to show how the universe and life came into existence WITH God”.

In order for something to be created it must exist in time. God is outside of time as He is Eternal (no beginning). Science tells us that Time and Matter came into existence with the Big Bang, thus the Cause of Time is outside of time (Eternal) and the Cause of matter is outside of matter (Spiritual). And the fact that the universe is comprehensible through the logical language of mathematics is proof that the Cause of the universe is an Eternal Rational Source which we call GOD.

Being that we are rational beings, that Source is our Father. Fatherhood is the principle of generation, thus we owe our origin To God, the Eternal Rational Being, who revealed Himself to Man in order for Man to know, love and serve Him. Since God is Truth, Love, Beauty and Goodness itself, we were made for God. Thus Jesus teaches us that we must love God with all of our heart, with all of our mind, with all of our strength, and with all of our soul; and we must also love our neighbor as we love ourself, being that we are all made in the image and likeness of God.

Human beings are made for Truth, Goodness and Love (GOD). Thus when we consciously act against Truth, Goodness and love, we commit sin, an offense against God; sin is the misuse of the intellect and the will.

Atheism is not a rational conclusion, it is a psychological state of mind.

 

[AlNg]

God is outside of time as He is Eternal (no beginning).

Only partially true because God is also inside of time.

 

[SFV]

Could you elaborate?

 

[Gab123]

God is eternal, meaning He has no beginning and no end. But He interacts with His creation which is in time.