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niceatheist
Guest
Thank you! A book to add to my reading list.
How did Islam get so popular?
- Thread starter Tis_Bearself
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K
Kaninchen
Guest
I remember reading Keith Thomas’ book ‘Religion and the Decline of Magic’ where he argued that a large proportion of the population in late Medieval/Early Modern times were pretty clueless about doctrine - the thing is that it’s an argument that isn’t really that significant - the important thing was that the people who were important went along with important beliefs.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Yes but you’re an atheist and might tend to be a bit flippant about that sort of thing, even more than me.
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niceatheist
Guest
Well, maybe I’m being a bit flippantniceatheist:
Yes but you’re an atheist and might tend to be a bit flippant about that sort of thing, even more than me.
But really, as you and I were just discussing, the notion of “properly catechized” is a reasonably new concept. The great unwashed, by and by, probably didn’t know Christianity any deeper than the Nicene Creed. Until literacy became more prevalent in the Modern Era, I don’t think there were a lot of peasant theologians. When the Reformation occurred, I have a feeling that in many cases local populations weren’t versed enough of either Catholic theology or Luther’s ideas to do much more than still show up to Church on Sunday. I’m not saying their faith was weak, I’m saying they didn’t have the time or the resources, or the education, to understand the great debates going on around them.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
Off the top of my head: Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, and Sinead O’Connor.
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Kaninchen
Guest
The great unwashed didn’t matter, the rich and sometimes washed were the important ones.
On the other hand, the religious authorities of the late Middle Ages/Early Modern period had started to become concerned about the fact that the great unwashed were so clueless about even the basics of Christianity - ‘there was some nice guy called Jesus and some shepherds or something’. Lots of superstition, clueless as to the basics.
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niceatheist
Guest
And I’d say the Reformation and Counter-reformation were the beginnings of a renaissance in Christianity. The Council of Trent, for instance, pretty much put an end to incompetent and illiterate priests, creating some proper standards for an educated priesthood. Too late, in many cases, Rome realized that poorly educated Catholics could be vulnerable. On the Protestant side, the printing press was in many ways the technology responsible for disseminating the writings of men like Luther and Calvin, as well as making the availability of the Bible much greater (and A LOT cheaper). As literacy rates began to climb I think the knowledge of Christianity among the laity, whatever Church they belonged to, became much greater.
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Kaninchen
Guest
That would certainly seem to be the case by the mid-17th Century.
This is a “don’t quote me on this” moment but I remember a Welsh friend of mine telling me about something called the ‘scandal of the Blue Books’ in the 19th Century where the Welsh were subject to a Parliamentary inquiry (after some riots) which decided that the Welsh knew nothing about anything but neglected the fact that the Welsh were remarkably literate but their reading was mainly the Bible.
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halogirl
Guest
Sorry that’s inappropriate. You are talking about extremism here. Let us remember our Muslim brothers and sisters are following God as they understand Him
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tomarin
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I’ve always aspired to be rich and sometimes washed, and I think I’ve found success with the latter part.
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Padres1969
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Catholicism sure. Some more recent versions of Christianity involve belief in Christ and not much else.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I remember reading somewhere that King John (of Magna Carta fame) was (by far) England’s most bathed Medieval monarch at one bath a week.
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tomarin
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And he probably took a lot of health risks in being so, according to the medical knowledge of the era.
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Kaninchen
Guest
As God or as important religious icon?
Establishing a man as God has always required religious gymnastics.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Indeed, it was thought to be an indication of moral degeneracy on his part.
Brother to a psychopath but a morally degenerate bather.
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niceatheist
Guest
Such incredible gymnastics that improperly translating technical Greek Christological terms into Latin lead to a permanent schism between Rome and Constantinople.Padres1969:
As God or as important religious icon?
Establishing a man as God has always required religious gymnastics.
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niceatheist
Guest
The irony was that John was actually a fairly popular King among the common folk, but he lacked the good sense Richard had to spend most of his reign outside of England beating on Turks and Frenchmen.tomarin:
Indeed, it was thought to be an indication of moral degeneracy on his part.
Brother to a psychopath but a morally degenerate bather.
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Kaninchen
Guest
When people discuss the filioque, my mind goes into sleep mode.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Continual culling of nobles in foreign wars was always a good idea from a regal perspective. Later, syphilis did the job.
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jack63
Guest
Oh…how…weird. Sinead really did become Muslim. No offense to Muslims…of course.
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