How did saints cope with the suffering of the world?

[JReducation]

There is a lot of evil in the world though! And often pointing it or correcting it does not cause anyone to change their minds, .

We have to accept that man has free will. We can preach, but we cannot convince. That is up the the person to accept the message. Jesus preached within a radius of about 50 miles of his home. In the end, there were 11 apostles and a small number of disciples.

St. Edith Stein wrote many many letters to the Pope during the Holocaust urging the Catholic church to take a stronger stand. She was eventually martyred.

The Holy Father took the only stand that was open to him. Had he taken another, more Catholics would have died.

St. Maximilian Maria went to Auschwitz in the first place because he got in trouble for sheltering Jews and supporting them during the Holocaust to the best of my extremely limited understanding. Served carbolic acid and thrown into a gas oven. Perhaps I should read more on his life.

Friar Maximilian Kolbe, as we Franciscans call him, went to the concentration camp for protecting Jews. But he did not go to his death for that. He volunteered to trade places with another inmate who was sentenced to death. Friar Max felt compassion for the man. The man was innocent of all wrong-doing. He was young and had a wife and family waiting for him. Friar Max stepped out of the line and offered to take his place, because he had no one waiting for him. As a Franciscan he was poor. He belonged to no one. He had no earthly attachments, either human or material. He was free to meet our Lord at any time. He lived up to his Franciscan vocation of poverty. When the moment came, he said he would, because he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

St. Josephine Bakhita was mutilated and scarred from slavery at a very young age. Until the end of her life, even after she had been rescued, she would suffer painful flashbacks where she would say things like “Remove the chains; they are heavy!!” although she was not in chains.

I don’t know her story.

St. Martin de Porres was discriminated against over and over as a mixed-race man, even by his fellow Dominican brothers, in Peru despite the fact that he rose and attained acclaim as a Dominican brother.

Martin de Porres suffered racial discrimination, but not to the degree that slaves in the United States did. By his time, slavery in South America was on the decline. Most Blacks were free. Martin was of mixed origin. His father was a white Spanish aristocrat and his mother a black Puerto Rican. She was free. That’s how she ended up in Peru.

Martin was well educated. He was taken to Spain by his father and returned to Peru after he finished his education. When he returned, he joined the Lay Dominican Order. He did not want to be a Dominican Friar. Some say that he was very inspired the spirituality of another Lay Dominican, Catherine of Siena. I don’t know this for sure. If there are any Lay Dominicans lurking around, they would know. He was a close friend of another Lay Dominican saint, Rose of Lima.

Many nations around the world, most of Africa and Latin America, still suffer the brutal legacy of colonialism.

This is true. I was a missionary in South America. But part of the problem is that the Latin American mindset is very different from the North American mindset. Latin Americans who came from Spain did not come to start a new life. They came to conquer. They never organized their societies as we did in United States and Canada. Their expectation was to return to Spain. Therefore, they promoted a dependence on Spain. We did not promote a dependence on the European mother nations: England, Holland, France or Spain.

When these nations became independent, they had no idea how to govern themselves. They never had the experience of self-determination. They’re still working out the process. They don’t want the same system as the United States and Canada. Unfortunately, the United States government keeps pushing our system of deomocracy on them as the ideal. It’s ideal for us, because it works for us. It is not ideal for those who don’t want it. They much prefer a socialist democratic system of government such as the Swiss, the Italians and the French have. But they also want to maintain their good relations with the USA for trade purposes. This puts them into an awkward situation. When you have such situations, you leave the doors wide open for corruption. For example, most Latin Americans did not want independence from the Catholic Church. This was imposed on them by politicians who wanted to justify their corruption and exercise their immorality without judgment from the people.

Sometimes when confronted by all the evil in the world, I, unfortunately in my sinful nature, struggle to keep my faith in the ultimate goodness of God and the dignity/worth of man.

God’s love for man is infinite. Man’s love for man can stand to be a little more generous.

Interesting, I’ve never heard this interpretation of the Holy Spirit as proceeding from their love before. Maybe I ought to do more research into the source of this idea.

Sure you have. We say it at mass every Sunday. “I believe in the Holy Spirit who procedes from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored . . . etc”

I’ve read on the hypostatic union in the online Catholic Encyclopedia and still don’t really understand all of it,

In brief, the hypostatic union is the union of the Divine nature and the Human nature in Jesus. He is both, God and Man.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[AveSantaMaria]

In the end, there were 11 apostles and a small number of disciples.

Interesting! Perhaps there were actually 120 disciples according to Acts of the Apostles. (Acts 1:15) This testifies greatly and wonderfully to the power of Christ that 2,000 years later the majority of people should be Christians when he only managed to convince 120 people during his life with all his signs and miracles and is a great encouragement in the faith.

The Holy Father took the only stand that was open to him. Had he taken another, more Catholics would have died.

Is the Catholic Church only willing to take stands as long as no Catholics die? Is the Holy Father’s responsibility to protecting the lives of Catholics first before ending something such as a genocide? We should be less committed to our faith than the Muslims are to theirs. I ask this in complete seriousness.

Might not one need to be committed enough to something that one is willing to die for it both to imitate Christ, “the greatest love that one can have is to give up his life for his brother,” and to succeed with long-lasting impact ala Reverend Martin Luther King or Archbishop Oscar Romero or St. Louis Marie Grignon de Montfort (who was poisoned for his preaching.) As the great Chief Justice Earl Warren said, “Everything I did in my life that was worthwile I caught hell for.” But it is now my current understanding that this sort of commitment is encouraged of individual Catholics but not of the Church as a whole.

Friar Maximilian Kolbe, as we Franciscans call him, went to the concentration camp for protecting Jews…When the moment came, he said he would, because he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Do you know the reason why Franciscans call him Friar Maximilian Kolbe instead of Friar Maximilian Maria? Is that really what the virtue of poverty is all about, living one’s life as if one has nothing to gain from this life? How can we call other people to take on this lifestyle of poverty and at the same time try to change the world? Haven’t we mentally abandoned as unworthy the world we are trying to change and aren’t we calling others to do so as well? Then why try to help the governments of the third world, why not just tell third world people to be happy they are poor in body as well as spirit? Wouldn’t we want them to be just as spiritually blessed as we ourselves are? Perhaps nothing is in fact wrong with the world except that every single human does not believe in Christ if his life is the ideal life. If that is the case, it is no wonder Christianity can be such a hard sell.

I don’t know her story.

She is mentioned here by the Vatican. vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20001001_giuseppina-bakhita_en.html His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has also written only two encyclicals during his time in office, the second one Spe Salve: On Christian Hope greatly concentrates on her. vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

Martin de Porres suffered racial discrimination, but not to the degree that slaves in the United States did.

Immediately after slavery was over in the United States, the white southerners said that blacks were completely free and suffered little to no discrimination. They may have been firm in their beliefs until the present day despite the fact that Harvard studies show otherwise, that around 80% of white, Asian, and Latino people in America today harbor unconscious negative stereotypes of black Americans without reason. projectimplicit.net/generalinfo.php

He was an illegitmate son of his father and mother. At 11 he was the servant of a Dominican priory. His own father was “repelled” when he saw that his son was so dark-skinned. Only eight years later did he acknowledge the paternity of Martin and his young sister and promise to pay for their upbringing. Until then he grew up in poverty since his mother could not support him. His superiors dropped the stipulation that “no black person be received to the holy habit or profession of our order” to let him. His autobiography mentions their racist attitudes. For example, once he corrected a Dominican brother of his for making the Indians sweep the floor after feeding them while treating the whites who had come a few weeks earlier (??) with decency and courtesy and cleaning up for them himself. He was very noble though even urging his superiors to sell him into to slavery to pay the balance accounts for the Dominicans.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

This is true. I was a missionary in South America.

Sometimes I wonder about aid organizations today in Latin America, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East and their short-term aims. I wonder if these aid organizations and places such as the World Bank also promote dependence and can be said to be partially responsible for the continued stagnation of these countries. In the 1960s, Singapore was thought to have worse economic growth prospects than the majority of African countries. Yet, Singapore became an East Asian Economic miracle.

Possibly because of benevolent dictatorship under Lee Kuan Yew where he ran his country like a business and insisted that his culture needed a different type of democracy due to Singaporean cultural values. He practiced a bit of exclusion of the West. Perhaps, all undeveloped countries of today should be saying the same instead of continuing their cycle of Western dependency.

Thank you very much for sharing this opinion on the problems with Latin America today as well as for your service to God and the Latin American community!! I am sure that Christ has a great, immense reward for you in Heaven!! This opinion on the dependency problem in the third world may be very beneficial for my friends who work on international development issues.

God’s love for man is infinite. Man’s love for man can stand to be a little more generous.

Maybe I need to study what it means that God’s love for man is infinite. Perhaps that he sincerely desires all men go to Heaven or to be one day divinized.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[JReducation]

You certainly pack a lot into one post. I’ll try to answer one or two points. I’ve had such a long day and am exhausted.

Is the Catholic Church only willing to take stands as long as no Catholics die? Is the Holy Father’s responsibility to protecting the lives of Catholics first before ending something such as a genocide?

It is one thing to give one’s life voluntarilly to save another or for the faith. It is another thing to put other people’s lives in danger when one can protect them. The latter is morally irresponsible. That’s the reason that the Church must challenge with diplomacy.

But it is now my current understanding that this sort of commitment is encouraged of individual Catholics but not of the Church as a whole.

As I said above, the Church can encourage us to exercise heroic faith. But she cannot justifiably endanger the lives of people, Caholic or other, if she can avoid it. In the case of Hitler, she could not avoid what Hitler was going to do. There was no guarantee that he would have responded to greater preasure. But there was almost certain guarantee that more innocent Catholics would have been killed. These folks would have been killed without volunteering for martyrdom. They would have been killed, because the Vatican placed them in harm’s way through its politics. The Pope could not do that to anyone. Why do you think that the Pope is not more confrontational with the leaders of East and West in the current crisis in the Middle East? He must always be careful not to endanger lives, either Catholic or others.

Do you know the reason why Franciscans call him Friar Maximilian Kolbe instead of Friar Maximilian Maria?

It is not a tradition of religious to call our members by two names. If you observe, most women religious are Sister Mary Something. But they are always called Sister Something. Mother Angelica’s first name is Mary. Mother Teresa’s first name was Maria. Unless the name is hyphenated, only one name is used. The last name is used for legal, journalistic or historic purposes or when you have more than one person with the same name, for example Francis, Joseph and John. There are too many of them.

For legal purposes the religious uses his or her baptismal name. Maximilian Kolbe’s death certificate says Raymond Kolbe. Civil documents with St. Francis’ of Assisi’s name on it say, John Bernadone. Even the Popes retain their baptismal name for legal purposes. Only two have had double names, John Paul I and John Paul II.

Because there have been many Friars by the name Maximilian, the last name is used, Kolbe.

Is that really what the virtue of poverty is all about, living one’s life as if one has nothing to gain from this life?

Max Kolbe was a good and faithful Franciscan. For the Franciscan, life is a gift from God and it is sacred. Every Franciscan faces life with the same spirit of humility as their spiritual father. Franciscans belong to no one. They are free of all attachments.

We do not hate life or believe that it has nothing to offer. We are detached from what life has to offer. There is a big difference between being detached for the sake of the Kingdom and having a pessimistic view of life.

Francis taught his brothers and sisters to be poor to the point of accepting death. The greatest detachment is detachment from life itself. When this detachment is the result of love, it is a virtue, not pessimism.

How can we call other people to take on this lifestyle of poverty and at the same time try to change the world?

St. Francis of Assisi did and today there are 600,000 Franciscans in 114 countries around the world. Mother Teresa did too and there are thousands of Missionaries of Charity around the world. So did Vincent de Paul.

Haven’t we mentally abandoned as unworthy the world we are trying to change and aren’t we calling others to do so as well?

Not at all. We are saying that the world is a sacrament of God’s love. We are giving back to the Father the greatest gift that he has given to us, our lives.

Then why try to help the governments of the third world, why not just tell third world people to be happy they are poor in body as well as spirit? Wouldn’t we want them to be just as spiritually blessed as we ourselves are?

When poverty and detachment from material things is embraced out of love and freely, it is a virtue. This is what people like Francis of Assisi, Vincent de Paul, Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa, John XXIII and John Paul II did.

But when poverty is imposed by injustice and crimes that protect the rights of some and not the rights of all, that is a sin. To give back to God our right to possess things, to be comfortable, to have power, to be held in esteem, we have to have do so freely, not because someone strips us of it. There can be no anger, resentment or bitterness. Self denial must come from love and freely chosen. It is the free decision of a man or woman to live as Christ and his apostles lived. The key word here is FREE.

The oppressed members of society are poor because they have been denied something, not because they have given something back to God. They can freely accept their condition and offer ther patience to God. God looks at this with a loving heart and receives this gift.

Perhaps nothing is in fact wrong with the world except that every single human does not believe in Christ if his life is the ideal life. If that is the case, it is no wonder Christianity can be such a hard sell.

Christianity is a hard sell, because it calls men and women to put their priorities in place, to harmonize their priorities with God’s priorities. We don’t always want to do this.

I hope this helps a little.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Pellman]

Sometimes, the Lord sends a soul suffering for their greater perfection and share in His glory on the Cross. Let this thought console you.

When I reflect on a six year old girl who was starved and tortured to death by her own parents, it is difficult to be consoled.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the object of this thread is hopeless. No saints’ thoughts could possibly console me. Only the Holy Spirit Himself can do it.

Prayer and fasting. And works of charity. There is my only hope.

But thank you all for sharing.

 

[JReducation]

**Pellman;4626638]When I reflect on a six year old girl who was starved and tortured to death by her own parents, it is difficult to be consoled. **

This is not the kind of suffering that the Lord sends us. This kind of suffering is the product of sin or possibly serious mental illness.

God does not want us to suffer. He did not create us to suffer and he did not redeem us to suffer. That being said, sometimes life brings suffering of its own.

Holiness is not in the pain. True holiness is in how we respond to suffering in our lives. When we try to find solutions and are unbable to do so, we have two choices.

1. We can rebel and deny God’s love for us.
2. We can unite our will to God’s will and await for him to use us and our suffering for the redemption of man. This is called Redemptive Suffering.

There is a big difference between placing ourselves in God’s hands and accepting abuse of innocent persons. The abuse of the innocent should trigger a holy indignation, just as Jesus was indignant when he saw abuses.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the object of this thread is hopeless. No saints’ thoughts could possibly console me. Only the Holy Spirit Himself can do it.

St. Bonaventure once wrote that there are two ways of receiving light from the Holy Spirit, direct revelation or through others. He said that the first rarely happens and most of us have to rely on God’s Grace operating through others, especially the saints.

Prayer and fasting. And works of charity. There is my only hope.
But thank you all for sharing.

Prayer, fasting and charity are a good means to opening our hearts to the action of the Spirit. That does not mean that he will not use human means and others to communicate with us.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[AveSantaMaria]

From Mystical City of God themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
In Defense of The City of God Mystica Civitate Dei: dailycatholic.org/issue/05Jun/jun10tim.htm - to summarize the research of three priests on the official decision of the Holy Roman Catholic Church regarding The Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Jesus of Agreda and to ascertain thereby whether it is permitted for anyone of any authority whatsoever to forbid the reading of this extraordinary book.

1. (Excerpt) On account of the merits of Christ, our Savior, the graces and gifts were prearranged, and also original justice, if they would only preserve it. The fall of Adam was foreseen and in him that of all others, except of the Queen, who did not enter into this decree. As a remedy was it ordained, that the most holy humanity should be capable of suffering. The predestined were chosen by free grace, and the foreknown were reprobated with exact justice. All that was convenient and necessary for the conservation of the human race and for obtaining the end of the Redemption and the Predestination, was preordained, without interfering with the free will of men; for such ordainment was more conformable to God’s nature and to divine equity. There was no injustice done to them, for if with their free will they could sin, so also could they abstain from sin by means of grace and the light of reason. God violated the right of no one, since He forsook no one nor denied to any one that which is necessary. Since his law is written in the hearts of men, nobody is excused for not knowing and loving Him as the highest Good of all creation.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

It is one thing to give one’s life voluntarilly to save another or for the faith. It is another thing to put other people’s lives in danger when one can protect them. The latter is morally irresponsible. That’s the reason that the Church must challenge with diplomacy.

As I said above, the Church can encourage us to exercise heroic faith. But she cannot justifiably endanger the lives of people, Caholic or other, if she can avoid it. In the case of Hitler, she could not avoid what Hitler was going to do. There was no guarantee that he would have responded to greater preasure. But there was almost certain guarantee that more innocent Catholics would have been killed. These folks would have been killed without volunteering for martyrdom. They would have been killed, because the Vatican placed them in harm’s way through its politics. The Pope could not do that to anyone. Why do you think that the Pope is not more confrontational with the leaders of East and West in the current crisis in the Middle East? He must always be careful not to endanger lives, either Catholic or others.

I have question about this. It is true that in 1939, when Hitler had started violence towards the Jews, it was a difficult situation. What about prior to 1939, such as 1935 when the Nuremburg laws were passed?

*1933, when Hitler said, “I will devote my entire strength to cultivating and strengthening the relations between the Holy See and Germany” freetruth.50webs.org/A7c.htm *

Pacelle became a crowned Pope [Pius XII] on March 12, 1939. The following month on April 20, 1939, at Pacelli’s express wish, Archbishop Orsenigo, the nuncio in Berlin, opened a gala reception for Hitler’s fiftieth birthday.

The Nuremburg Laws were in 1935. What is the explanation for not speaking before 1941, when the ghettos were extablished? What is the explanation for not speaking as early as 1935? How is that putting anyone’s life in danger to speak out about the Nuremburg Laws as early as 1935?