How did the Catholic Church give us the Bible?

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I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church:) . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
 
Well, first off, welcome to the forums! (From a former Baptist. :D)

The Council of Hippo and the Council of Carthege were councils in the 400’s that defined what the canon would be. (Others here can give more details. I don’t have them on hand at the moment.) The Council of Trent (in 1556), only re-defined what the councils 1100 years earlier had stated.

EDIT: you might try reading Jergen’s “Faith of the Early Church Father’s”. St. Augustine as well as a few others who were at the council(s) list what books should be in what would become the Bible.
 
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church:) . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
This may take a while to read. It’s how we got the Bible.

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham_contents.html
 
Thank you Cairisti, I will look for that book (maybe on E-Bay).
Thank you Mannyfit75 I looked on your link and it looks like alot of info. I will try and read it more closely tomorrow (I just scanned through it tonight). Thank you both for responding so quickly:D . God Bless,
Benaiah
 
Thank you Cairisti, I will look for that book (maybe on E-Bay).
Thank you Mannyfit75 I looked on your link and it looks like alot of info. I will try and read it more closely tomorrow (I just scanned through it tonight). Thank you both for responding so quickly:D . God Bless,
Benaiah
You are welcome. Let us know and update us on your progress. If you have an questions concerning the history of the Bible, send me an email or a private message. I’m more than willing to share you some information.

May the Peace in Jesus Christ be with you always.
 
Hi Benaiah,

You might have heard the counter-claim that all Christians just naturally (supernaturally?) recognized which writings were scripture from the very beginning. The problem with this claim is that if it were true, there would have been no need for 3 different councils within 50 years to record the canon of scripture. Councils don’t bother to discuss and rule on things that all Christians already believe. They discuss and rule on things that Christians have become divided on. Councils come together to clarify truth and correct error, not to tell people what they already know. So the fact that 3 different councils felt the need to produce a canon of scripture plainly tells us that the canon was not at all a settled matter at the time (some 350 years after the birth of the Church).
 
Hello Vocimike,
Thanks for responding, but I tend not to agree with you in regards to your statement: “So the fact that 3 different councils felt the need to produce a canon of scripture plainly tells us that the canon was not at all a settled matter at the time (some 350 years after the birth of the Church).” I don’t believe any council “produced” any canon of scripture, but came to an “authoritative” recognition of pre-existing copies of scripture already in use by many Christian churches at that time. The other area that I tend not to agree with you on is the 1st part of your statement, “You might have heard the counter-claim that all Christians just naturally (supernaturally?) recognized which writings were scripture from the very beginning.” There were many warnings to the 1st century Christians written down by the Apostles themselves:
(Gal.1:6-9, Acts 20:29-30, Rom.16:17-18, Phil.3:17-19, Col.2:8, 1Tim.6:3-5, 2Tim.4:2-4, 2Pet.2:1-4, 1Jn.4:1-6, 1Jn.5:12-13, 2Jn.1:7-11 all quotes from KJV), and these written warnings were given and taught to the Churches. I do agree that by the 3rd or 4th century AD, there were many “non-canonical” writings being circulated between churches that needed to be dealt with and these councils were effective in discarding them. In this sense, these councils were good, but I am cautious in assuming that all of the Christian Churches were represented at these councils. Obviously, I am speaking from a Baptist position (that is, that Peter was not the 1st Pope or Bishop of Rome) and not a Catholic position. I don’t want to offend you, but I am just being honest as to my position. Anyway, I am trying to read some of the other material already sent to me (by Mannyfit75). I do appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, even though on some points we tend not to agree. Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
 
You are entitle to your opinion was not the first Pope, but clearly he was. He was martyred in Rome, and there are letters in the Bible, which clearly

Consider the following,

The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13, Knox). Babylon is a code-word for Rome. It is used that way multiple times in works like the Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1). Eusebius Pamphilius, in The Chronicle, composed about A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.”

Consider now the other New Testament citations: “Another angel, a second, followed, saying, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion’” (Rev. 14:8). “The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath” (Rev. 16:19). “[A]nd on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations’” (Rev. 17:5). “And he called out with a mighty voice, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great’” (Rev. 18:2). “[T]hey will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, ‘Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come’” (Rev. 18:10). “So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence” (Rev. 18:21).

These references can’t be to the one-time capital of the Babylonian empire. That Babylon had been reduced to an inconsequential village by the march of years, military defeat, and political subjugation; it was no longer a “great city.” It played no important part in the recent history of the ancient world. From the New Testament perspective, the only candidates for the “great city” mentioned in Revelation are Rome and Jerusalem.

“But there is no good reason for saying that ‘Babylon’ means ‘Rome,’” insists Boettner. But there is, and the good reason is persecution. The authorities knew that Peter was a leader of the Church, and the Church, under Roman law, was considered organized atheism. (The worship of any gods other than the Roman was considered atheism.) Peter would do himself, not to mention those with him, no service by advertising his presence in the capital—after all, mail service from Rome was then even worse than it is today, and letters were routinely read by Roman officials. Peter was a wanted man, as were all Christian leaders. Why encourage a manhunt? We also know that the apostles sometimes referred to cities under symbolic names (cf. Rev. 11:8).
 
In any event, let us be generous and admit that it is easy for an opponent of Catholicism to think, in good faith, that Peter was never in Rome, at least if he bases his conclusion on the Bible alone. But restricting his inquiry to the Bible is something he should not do; external evidence has to be considered, too.

William A. Jurgens, in his three-volume set The Faith of the Early Fathers, a masterly compendium that cites at length everything from the Didache to John Damascene, includes thirty references to this question, divided, in the index, about evenly between the statements that “Peter came to Rome and died there” and that “Peter established his See at Rome and made the bishop of Rome his successor in the primacy.” A few examples must suffice, but they and other early references demonstrate that there can be no question that the universal—and very early—position (one hesitates to use the word “tradition,” since some people read that as “legend”) was that Peter certainly did end up in the capital of the Empire.

Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].” Fundamentalists admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there. It was commonly accepted, from the very first, that both Peter and Paul were martyred at Rome, probably in the Neronian persecution in the 60s.

In the same book, Tertullian wrote that “this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.” This Clement, known as Clement of Rome, later would be the fourth pope. (Note that Tertullian didn’t say Peter consecrated Clement as pope, which would have been impossible since a pope doesn’t consecrate his own successor; he merely ordained Clement as priest.) Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that “When Nero was already reigning (Nero reigned from 54–68), Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.”

These citations could be multiplied. (Refer to Jurgens’ books or to the Catholic Answers tract Peter’s Roman Residency.) No ancient writer claimed Peter ended his life anywhere other than in Rome. On the question of Peter’s whereabouts they are in agreement, and their cumulative testimony carries enormous weight.
 
There is much archaeological evidence that Peter was at Rome, but Boettner, like other Fundamentalist apologists, must dismiss it, claiming that “exhaustive research by archaeologists has been made down through the centuries to find some inscription in the catacombs and other ruins of ancient places in Rome that would indicate Peter at least visited Rome. But the only things found which gave any promise at all were some bones of uncertain origin” (118).

Boettner saw Roman Catholicism through the presses in 1962. His original book and the revisions to it since then have failed to mention the results of the excavations under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica, excavations that had been underway for decades, but which were undertaken in earnest after World War II. What Boettner casually dismissed as “some bones of uncertain origin” were the contents of a tomb on Vatican Hill that was covered with early inscriptions attesting to the fact that Peter’s remains were inside.

After the original release of Boettner’s book, evidence had mounted to the point that Pope Paul VI was able to announce officially something that had been discussed in archaeological literature and religious publications for years: that the actual tomb of the first pope had been identified conclusively, that his remains were apparently present, and that in the vicinity of his tomb were inscriptions identifying the place as Peter’s burial site, meaning early Christians knew that the prince of the apostles was there. The story of how all this was determined, with scientific accuracy, is too long to recount here. It is discussed in detail in John Evangelist Walsh’s book, The Bones of St. Peter. It is enough to say that the historical and scientific evidence is such that no one willing to look at the facts objectively can doubt that Peter was in Rome. To deny that fact is to let prejudice override reason.
 
Now to get back on track on the subject, Pope St. Damasus I in 382 AD approved the work of the first Council of Constantinople, accepting St. Athanasius’ list as divinely inspired, and indicated that if any bishop used a list of books inconsistent with the Roman canon he would need a convincing explanation. Then the Council of Hippo, a regional council for some of the bishops in the Diocese of Africa, in 393 AD reaffirmed The Decree of Damasus. The third Council of Carthage was far more authoritative than the Council of Hippo. The Diocese of Africa then had its see at Carthage, so Carthage had authority to speak for all of the northwest African bishops. The Council of Carthage in 397 AD also reaffirmed The Decree of Damasus. Carthage, unlike Hippo, sent its decisions to Rome for ratification. Pope St. Boniface I (418-422) ratified the decision and declared the canon settled for the Western Patriarchate. He also sent the decision to the Eastern patriarchs in Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. At that point, the Catholic Canon of Sacred Scripture was informally accepted worldwide. The Fourth Council of Carthage in 419 reaffirmed Pope St. Boniface. The Council of Nicea II in 787 ratified the same canon as authoritative for the Eastern Churches. Finally, the Council of Trent, a worldwide Ecumenical Council, formally proclaimed the Catholic Canon of Sacred Scripture in 1546 as authoritative for the whole world.

From this we see that while each Pope in his time has supreme authority over the Church, and may exercise his authority at any time, Holy Mother Church often works by a consensus of the Pope and the bishops developed over time. The faithful who see a teaching proclaimed by the Pope and all the bishops worldwide recognize in it the Holy Spirit’s silent authorship.
 
Hello Vocimike,
Thanks for responding, but I tend not to agree with you in regards to your statement: “So the fact that 3 different councils felt the need to produce a canon of scripture plainly tells us that the canon was not at all a settled matter at the time (some 350 years after the birth of the Church).” I don’t believe any council “produced” any canon of scripture, but came to an “authoritative” recognition of pre-existing copies of scripture already in use by many Christian churches at that time.
When I say that the councils produced the canon, I just mean that they produced the list - that’s what a canon is, an authoritative list of writings. They did not, of course, produce the scripture itself. I am quite content to use your wording, that they came to an authoritative recognition of which of the existing writings were actually scripture. The key point is that there was no universal recognition of which writings were scripture (mostly talking about the New Testament here), so councils, Catholic councils, felt the obligation to produce such a canon and end the confusion.
 
Now to get back on track on the subject, Pope St. Damasus I in 382 AD approved the work of the first Council of Constantinople, accepting St. Athanasius’ list as divinely inspired, and indicated that if any bishop used a list of books inconsistent with the Roman canon he would need a convincing explanation. Then the Council of Hippo, a regional council for some of the bishops in the Diocese of Africa, in 393 AD reaffirmed The Decree of Damasus. The third Council of Carthage was far more authoritative than the Council of Hippo. The Diocese of Africa then had its see at Carthage, so Carthage had authority to speak for all of the northwest African bishops. The Council of Carthage in 397 AD also reaffirmed The Decree of Damasus. Carthage, unlike Hippo, sent its decisions to Rome for ratification. Pope St. Boniface I (418-422) ratified the decision and declared the canon settled for the Western Patriarchate. He also sent the decision to the Eastern patriarchs in Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. At that point, the Catholic Canon of Sacred Scripture was informally accepted worldwide. The Fourth Council of Carthage in 419 reaffirmed Pope St. Boniface. The Council of Nicea II in 787 ratified the same canon as authoritative for the Eastern Churches. Finally, the Council of Trent, a worldwide Ecumenical Council, formally proclaimed the Catholic Canon of Sacred Scripture in 1546 as authoritative for the whole world.

From this we see that while each Pope in his time has supreme authority over the Church, and may exercise his authority at any time, Holy Mother Church often works by a consensus of the Pope and the bishops developed over time. The faithful who see a teaching proclaimed by the Pope and all the bishops worldwide recognize in it the Holy Spirit’s silent authorship.
Hello Mannyfit75,
I apologize if I hit a sensative area about Peter as the 1st Pope, however I was up-front from the very beginning about my Baptist perspective on Holy Scripture. No practicing Baptist that I know of would agree on your interpretation of Scripture as to supporting Peter being the 1st Pope or even being in Rome. As for all of the extra-biblical claims supporting this, I would find interesting to review them at some point. This, then brings me back to my main point of posting this thread. “but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore.” I would like to know of titles of books (not web sites), that I could either purchase or research in a library. Once again, Mannyfit75, I do apologize for touching on a sensative area so foundational for the Catholic religion. That was not my intention. God Bless,
Benaiah
 
benaiah
Another aspect of your question really goes to what happened during the Reformation and subsequent understanding of “Bible only” Christianity.
I recommend the following book “The Meaning of Tradition” by Yves Congar, O.P.

He does a very good job of explaining the Catholic understanding of relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the role of the Magisterium.

Peace be with you
Michael J
 
Hello Mannyfit75,
I apologize if I hit a sensative area about Peter as the 1st Pope, however I was up-front from the very beginning about my Baptist perspective on Holy Scripture. No practicing Baptist that I know of would agree on your interpretation of Scripture as to supporting Peter being the 1st Pope or even being in Rome. As for all of the extra-biblical claims supporting this, I would find interesting to review them at some point. This, then brings me back to my main point of posting this thread. “but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore.” I would like to know of titles of books (not web sites), that I could either purchase or research in a library. Once again, Mannyfit75, I do apologize for touching on a sensative area so foundational for the Catholic religion. That was not my intention. God Bless,
Benaiah
Did I not give you the link that listed these books, and Councils that canonized the books in the Bible?
 
Hello Mannyfit75,
I apologize if I hit a sensative area about Peter as the 1st Pope, however I was up-front from the very beginning about my Baptist perspective on Holy Scripture. No practicing Baptist that I know of would agree on your interpretation of Scripture as to supporting Peter being the 1st Pope or even being in Rome.
Historical records show that he was - the ancient Romans list him as one of those who was crucified there in 67 AD - he was actually crucified upside down, and references to these records are passed down to us in the writings of the Early Church.
As for all of the extra-biblical claims supporting this, I would find interesting to review them at some point. This, then brings me back to my main point of posting this thread. “but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore.” I would like to know of titles of books (not web sites), that I could either purchase or research in a library.
The Faith of the Early Fathers, compiled by William Jurgens is a fabulous starting place. It’s in three volumes, and contains the most important of the early writings of the Church, translated into English, and with notes at the beginning of each one showing who the author was, when it was written, who the original audience was, etc. It also has an excellent index, and it’s really easy to find things - for example, if you want to learn about what the Early Church thought about Baptism, you just look in the index for “Baptism” and it shows you all the places you can find writings about this subject.

The encyclical Dei Verbum (The Word of God) by Pope Paul VI (1965) would also be a good source for you as a general overview.
 
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church:) . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
I am a former Baptist myself and where we go the bible was a compelling issue for me in my conversion to Catholicism. There is a lot of history and theology in Catholicism (2000 years of it) so please be patient for some answers can’t be given just by showing you one verse in Scripture or simple one sentence answers. Here is a simple and descriptive website that explains how we got the bible.
home.inreach.com/bstanley/canon.htm

Also, a good and easy Catholic book to read is “Where we go the Bible” amazon.com/Where-Bible-Debt-Catholic-Church/dp/0895551373

I saw one there for under 3 dollars.
 
Thank you Bishopite,
So far I have found and ordered William A. Jurgens 3 vol. set on “the Faith of the early Fathers”, Yves Congar’s “The Meaning of Tradition”, and Henry G. Graham’s “Where we got the Bible”. Posting here has been very helpful. I have heard someone mention a set of books called “History of the Christian Church” by Philip Schaff. I didn’t know if these are pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic. Does anyone know if Philip Schaff was Catholic? I’m looking for Church history books that support the Catholic view of Church history. Any info would be appreciated:) . Thanks and God Bless,
Benaiah
 
Just gonna throw in my two bits…

It’s also important to understand the usage of the word “Catholic”. While the early Christians used the term to mean “all who were in the Church”, or “the Church for all” (universal - not just for Jews), they most appropriatley applied it to the Church hierarchy, and they certainly applied the term only to a single unified body of believers.

The term comes from two Greek words, “kata” and “holos”, meaning “according to the whole”. So, when the Church convened in councils to determine what was passed down from the apostles through their successors to each church, the determination was made to what the “entire” Church believes, or what the Church holds “according to the whole”. And there we have the Catholic Church.
 
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
Hi benaiah, welcome to the Catholic Fora.
The Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D…

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:


***It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. ***
***The list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament. ***
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 393: Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.” (canon 36 A.D. 393).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 397: Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical " (canon 47 A.D. 397).


You will find no earlier authoratative declaration. There are also earlier Catholic writings on the subject, but this is The Authoratative Declaration that set the Canon of the New Testament for all time to come. The canons of the Early Councils and the writings of the Early Church Fathers are available at the libraries of major universities throughout the world.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Yours in Christ.
 
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