How did The fall of Adam and Eve Happen?

[Frankenfurter]

Indeed. Thank you for that. From the Catechism:

318 No creature has the infinite power necessary to “create” in the proper sense of the word, that is, to produce and give being to that which had in no way possessed it (to call into existence “out of nothing”) (cf DS 3624).

But we do still have a hand in altering creation - although we do not bring it into being. This gift to change creation is something that God has given us. We can alter creation in a way that is aligned with God, or not. We have that free will that God has given us.

The fact that we can change God’s creation is self evident. How we choose to use that God given power is our choice. Having that choice is something that we did NOT create ourselves, but was granted to us by God.

Holding these two notions (The attributes listed by the OP for God) and our free will together seems to be contradictory at first. But it is not because part of God’s creation is that he gave us the free will to alter his creation. God does not create static objects. He creates processes, and powers, and gifts of action. We have been given dominion over creation. The power is truly awesome. Only a God with the attributes listed could do that.

 

[EndTimes]

But we do still have a hand in altering creation - although we do not bring it into being. This gift to change creation is something that God has given us. We can alter creation in a way that is aligned with God, or not. We have that free will that God has given us.

The fact that we can change God’s creation is self evident. How we choose to use that God given power is our choice. Having that choice is something that we did NOT create ourselves, but was granted to us by God.

Holding these two notions (The attributes listed by the OP for God) and our free will together seems to be contradictory at first. But it is not because part of God’s creation is that he gave us the free will to alter his creation. God does not create static objects. He creates processes, and powers, and gifts of action. We have been given dominion over creation. The power is truly awesome. Only a God with the attributes listed could do that.

OK…

And Satan …

And on the average many of Man via Free Will

… have reduced His (Pristine) Creation to a Shameful Mess…

Which shall get Replaced One Fine Day…

Are we still in Agreement?

 

[Frankenfurter]

Indeed.

Like in a company, if you give someone the authority to run a business, they have the power to completely screw it up. Power, authority, responsibility derive from the fact that you can actually mess it all up.

Respect for that power leads us to align ourselves with God. If we fail to comprehend the power we have been given then we would not by inclined to try and align with God.

 

[EndTimes]

That runs fairly close to modernism

or… exact.

At the very least - it’s seriously false and wrong to cast any doubt upon Scriptures
in yes, direct opposition to the Teachings about Scriptures from the Catholic Church
as are very clearly elucidated in , for example . .Scriptures and the CCC

_

 

[EndTimes]

ndeed.

Like in a company, if you give someone the authority to run a business, they have the power to completely screw it up. Power, authority, responsibility derive from the fact that you can actually mess it all up.

Respect for that power leads us to align ourselves with God. If we fail to comprehend the power we have been given then we would not by inclined to try and align with God.

And as is obvious and can be found within Jesus’ Prophecies,
Because too many Man DisObeyed God,
Man indeed screwed things up.

Only upon the awaited return of Jesus - Messiah of all - shall what AILS CREATION be Fixed…

 

[EndTimes]

The sentence still doesn’t make any sense. I’m not going to spend time deciphering unclear sentences that still aren’t clarified after two posts.

To you it makes no sense. To others it does.

And to all:

And as is obvious and can be found within Jesus’ Prophecies,
Because too many Man DisObeyed God,
Man indeed screwed things up.

Only upon the awaited return of Jesus - Messiah of all - shall what AILS CREATION be Fixed…

 

[Frankenfurter]

Indeed.

One of the more profound things regarding how we have screwed things up (by choice) lies in the fact that we have screwed up nature itself. The fall of man is not just the fall of humans, but all of nature. This is because man and nature are linked together. We like to think of them as two distinct things. But they are inseparable. God made it that way.

As you said ALL of creation needs to be fixed. The depths of our screw-up (and therefore power that we must have had, and still have) is indeed awesome.

But, since Jesus has not come back yet, I must assume that it is at least possible, and worth striving towards, that we can actually fix it.

 

[EndTimes]

One of the more profound things regarding how we have screwed things up (by choice) lies in the fact that we have screwed up nature itself. The fall of man is not just the fall of humans, but all of nature. This is because man and nature are linked together. We like to think of them as two distinct things. But they are inseparable. God made it that way.

As you said ALL of creation needs to be fixed. The depths of our screw-up (and therefore power that we must have had, and still have) is indeed awesome.

A)… But, since Jesus has not come back yet,

B). I must assume that it is at least possible, and worth striving towards, that we can actually fix it.

I agree with all - expect this A->B portion - for several reasons;
with perhaps it orbiting around what constitutes “fix” ?

With “Fix” Taken as repairing Creation? B does not logically follow A

We can’t minimize the Tremendous Significance of our Lord’s Return - regardless of When.

Consider this - which points to our Lord’s Return, Judgement, End of Evil, New Earth/Heaven

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. … For the Creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed… For the Creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the Creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

We know that the whole Creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time… Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. … For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? … But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

That said…Catholic Teachings re: End Times - ultimately point to Our Lord as ‘fixing’ the problems,
which, to the difficulty of believing by some, excludes the current pre-Return Chuch Militant
from being anywhere close to being the main FIXER in the sense that I employ “fix”

_

 

[Metis1]

Please tell me you’re not teaching RCIA students the opinions you’ve been showing here? Even if you yourself are able to toe the line and not fall in, others could easily get confused and end up in error

I teach Catholic theology in the RCIA, thus not my theology, and I have done this for 15 years at the priests’ request since I have a background in theology.

If one actually studies theology, including how various Church teachings were formulated, one quickly discovers that what appears to be slam-dunk on the surface typically was hardly that in their composition. The selection of our canon, for example, took over 1/2 century, was strongly argued different ways, and the decision of what we call the “Apocrypha” was put off for centuries because no agreement was reached.

We have the right of individual discernment as long as we try to understand the Church’s position and don’t deviate from it for self-centered reasons. OTOH, those of us who teach in the Church have sharper restrictions, and many a Catholic theologian has been warned not to stray too far from “the ranch”. Nowadays, they are allowed more slack than yesteryear, but many of them will not seek the Church’s imprimatur to avoid such conflicts.

Our current priest knows my background, knows my questioning, and yet he asked me to get involved in the RCIA. As a scientist (anthropologist), we question and question some more, but I told him I can commit myself to help the Church and people in it, so he welcomed me back almost two years ago. For the previous 20+ years, I belonged to a Reform synagogue, whereas I taught the Lunch & Learn program there for about 12 years.

IOW, no one has been able to shut me up.

 

[Metis1]

To deal with another comment from someone else, let me just mention that Jesus took the 613 Commandments as found in Torah, and then he narrowed them down to two: love of God and love of all humankind. From 613, down to 2. All the rest we find in the NT basically is what we call “commentary”, much of that dealing with application. In some cases, applications of almost 2000 years ago may not suffice today, or they may have to be ameliorated in some cases. In some areas, we know a lot more than the ancients did.

My point is that it is not somehow “demonic” to question some teachings personally. When I see some Catholics get really sarcastic and demeaning, including even on some of the political threads, my gut question is “What about the love that Jesus taught don’t they understand?”.

The Gospel really is quite simple, so let’s not muddy it up with questions like “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”. “Commentary” is fine & dandy as far as it goes, but understanding and living “agape” is far more important.

Anyhow, may each of you have a Most Blessed Lord’s Day.

 

[Gorgias]

Fine, I will say that this post is you trolling.

So… you accuse me of “interpretation”, rather than simply quoting the CCC, and I’m the one trolling?

The Church says Genesis uses figurative language. It does not specify how much or where.

Please re-read the quote from the Catechism again. It specifies both:
Catechism #390:

The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man .

It doesn’t specify where? Genesis 3. It doesn’t specify how much? In precisely that narrative.

Really, JT… this is getting embarrassing for you, not for me.

MasterHaster:

EndTimes:

Are you going through life simply attempting to say in a Legion of manners that you are not a Christian?

I don’t understand what that means.

I challenge any other person to paraphrase your sentence.

“Gee, MasterHaster, it sure seems like, on a wide variety of fronts, you disagree with what Christianity teaches.”

You’re welcome.

 

[Gorgias]

Once again (for the third time)

The use of figurative language is not specified in the Catechism. The figurative language could be limited entirely to two cases: God “walking” and the Serpent “crawling on (his) belly and eating dirt”

I’ve literally quoted the CCC to you twice, and yet you make this claim.

“Genesis 3.” It’s right there in black and white: the reference is to the “fall of man” narrative. So… when the Church says “Genesis 3”, it doesn’t really mean “Genesis 3”, but only “a couple of words in that chapter”? “Genesis 3”. Full stop. I’m not sure it gets any clearer than that.

What is not valid, and indeed is probably sinful, is to suggest that your own personal interpretation is the only valid truth

Right. 'Cause it’s only your personal interpretation that’s valid and not sinful. Got it.

Just stop misrepresenting the actual Church teaching

I’m not the one misrepresenting the Church’s teaching, brother.

Have a wonderful evening, JT.

 

[EndTimes]

If one actually studies theology, including how various Church teachings were formulated, one quickly discovers that what appears to be slam-dunk on the surface typically was hardly that in their composition.

So you say…

There’s theology and Theology // theologians and Theologians…

And the infighting and disagreements amongst them are Legion

 

[Metis1]

I really don’t think that the Catechism just floated down from heaven into people’s hands, and the history of how many such matters were decided upon clearly shows this it took much effort, prayer, and often disagreement to get it put together.

To put it another way, I don’t think that the Holy Spirit is an encyclopedia that answers all questions.

 

[thistle]

To put it another way, I don’t think that the Holy Spirit is not an encyclopedia that answers all questions.

The Holy Spirit is God and God knows everything.

 

[Metis1]

Thanks for the heads-up, and I corrected it.

 

[Gorgias]

It does seem odd that important doctrinal matters are decided in meetings instead of direct revelation of God ( and can take centuries).

To tell the truth, when doctrine is decided upon, that’s precisely what happens: the Church – after praying and discerning and discussing – concludes that God had revealed it (either in Sacred Scripture or through Apostolic Teaching (which itself proceeds from Christ)).

 

[EndTimes]

I don’t think that the Holy Spirit is an encyclopedia that answers all questions.

Keeping in mind that FAITH opens the DOOR to God’s Spirit a la the New Way,

In your experience - what has God’s Holy Spirit done or not - for you?

 

[Metis1]

After being gone from the Church for over 20 years, it was the HS that led me back through a 2-year series of “premonitions” that mystified me for most of that time until near the end of that period when it finally got all put together at a mass at a Catholic Church that I had attended as a Protestant dating a Catholic woman over 50 years ago. These premonitions involved her, my wife, and myself, as these two women changed my life in ways I could never had anticipated. One series of premonitions had it that I needed to drive 2+ hours to that church on campus, so I eventually did, and at the end of that mass I finally realized that I needed to come back into the Church as I believed that this is what these premonitions were leading me to do.

When I saw the movie “Harriet”, which is about Harriet Tubman, who also was guided by premonitions at times herself, it was a reminder of how powerful the HS can be as a guide. I always had doubts about such things-- until it happened to me. But imagine living for two years with these repeatedly happening with no clue as to why they were happening or what they could lead to.

So, to me, the HS gets us motivated to consider and to encourage us to do certain things, but I do not view the HS as being an encyclopedia-- more as a motivator. If the HS was some sort of encyclopedia, then disagreements within the Church magisterium shouldn’t happen and all decisions should be 100% correct. I find no evidence for that-- actually quite the opposite at times.

 

[EndTimes]

So, to me, the HS gets us motivated to consider and to encourage us to do certain things, but I do not view the HS as being an encyclopedia-- more as a motivator

God’s Holy Spirit - indeed Knows all…

He can even motivate us - in dynamic miraculous manners - all in accordance to God’s Will -
along with our agreement and openness via our will…

Saul - Zealous AntiChristian - is an example.

)