How did The fall of Adam and Eve Happen?

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True. Both come from the teaching authority of the Church. If you want to claim that the Church is wrong in her CCC, then I think we’re done here – clearly, we’re not following the same authority. 😉

Nope. Human death followed the fall.

Nope. That’s in the CCC, too.

Nope. That, as well, is in the CCC.

I’m just ignoring the ways in which you’re interpreting the Church’s teachings and claiming that they’re not your personal interpretation. 😉
 
MasterHaster said:
There is scant evidence Moses wrote Genesis and it is not a required belief of Catholics. Evidence of 40 years wandering is also greatly lacking and most scholars don’t believe it literally happened. I agree it is best to take these stories as allegorical.
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At which point in the books of the bible do you feel things go from being allegorical to reality?
 
Are you saying that the CCC misinterprets Trent?

Good luck with that one… 😉
 
There is nothing contradictory between the attributes for God you have listed and the fall of Adam and Eve.

God gave them some hand in creation. They (and we have) a contribution to creation. We are, part of God. But they (and we) are supposed to choose to do only those things that God would approve - but within that we have latitude. Unfortunately, through a lack of faith in God, we chose to ignore his will and do things knowingly against his will.

We are like children given responsibility for the first time. We know the rules, but have power to do what we want. Ooops we kind of messed up and squandered this power. Kids do that. But their parents still love them. But the parents have to come in and fix the mess and remind them to do better next time.
 
I’m not interpreting. I’m quoting.

If you don’t like what the CCC says, then it’s your own interpretation that you need to address. 😉
 
And so, I take from that assertion that you believe that this “one interpretation” is not what the text of the CCC asserts. Am I correct in that understanding?
 
That is like saying science disproves God…
 
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tafan2 said:
No death before the fall among animals is not Catholic teaching. Indeed it is not much of a stretch to say it goes against Catholic teachings. Immortality, infused knowledge, and lack of concupiscence were preternatural gifts to man by God, ie we were not due them from our created nature. I do not believe any of these gifts were granted to animals. That would be a stretch of the imagination.
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MasterHaster said:
That’s misrepresenting what I said. I was talking about stories in the Bible, not God.
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I got that, but what I am asking is what part do you believe God directly revealed?
What part do, if any do you trust in being penned by the author of life?
The New Testament?
Parts of the OT?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit could direct men to write down all they had seen? That God could deliver His message this way?

You say…
  • good starting point is if science contradicts it then its likely allegory.*
Do you believe God is subject to the same laws of nature we are?
That He created?
Do you think He is bound by space and time?
 
My approach to scripture is to treat all narratives as being allegorical, focusing on what’s being taught, what I/we can learn from them, and then relating that to what I may believe and what actions are more or less appropriate. Therefore, questions like “Did Moses actually exist?” is of far lesser importance to me than “What is this narrative(s) teaching me?”.

Therefore, I deal with the Creation, the Fall, and the Flood in such context. IMO, we should always remember that scriptures are subjective in nature, not objective. Therefore, they are neither objective history nor objective science.

So ya, I’m on the lunatic left-wing of Catholicism, but what I can do and am doing is to commit myself to help others within the context of the Church, both with my involvement helping those in need and with my teaching within the Church (RCIA).
 
Metis1 said:
So ya, I’m on the lunatic left-wing of Catholicism
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Maybe… .

Keep in mind that The Catholic Church teaches that Adam and Eve are Indeed Real First Parents

And Jesus Never considered Genesis as anything else other than what it is…

Why even involve in lessening the Sacred-Ness of Scriptures?
 
MasterHaster said:
The “sacredness” of something is not determined by if it is literal or allegorical.
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No one but perhaps you is saying that it is…

Curious… Help me out here…

Are you going through life simply attempting to say in a Legion of manners that you are not a Christian?

For … that’s the impressions I see.

)
 
MastrHaster says:

*There is scant evidence Moses wrote Genesis *
and it is not a required belief of Catholics
  • Un Important re: Moses and/or Whomever … 🙂
  • Genesis is required belief for Catholics and for at least some Jews of Jesus’ Time
 
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MasterHaster said:
It doesn’t. Perhaps one day it will. This has to be relied upon through faith.
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So why is it so hard to apply that faith to the rest of scripture?

If God can create ex nihilo, then why is it a stretch to believe He can preserve His word through time?
That the creation was as He relayed through the Holy Spirit for man to know and read?
Why are there are so many prophecies fulfilled, given to these prophets by God via the Holy Spirit thousands of years before the birth of Christ?
Giving detailed information to His birth, places and death?
Science may have some large numbers to produce if it is just a statistical anomaly.

God is not held by the bounds of His creation, including science.
I view science as the thumbprint of God, the most intricate design is revealed through His creation, even in science.
However He is not bound by it, indeed He has inserted Himself throughout history in defiance with the man known natural laws of science.

Of all the things we have discussed preserving a book throughout human history seems the smallest of miracles…

Appreciate the honest give and take you have presented…

M
 
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Frankenfurter said:
God gave them some hand in creation. They (and we have) a contribution to creation. We are, part of God.
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No.

Us Pots do not possess Creative via Will Attributes - which belong solely to the Potter, God.

God is THE Creator of Heaven and Earth
 
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