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JanR
Guest
They didn’t trust God.
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EndTimes
Guest
Naw. Before Egypt came to be, JESUS IS…Yup. God sent him to Egypt U. to prepare him to receive the Word from above.
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Gorgias
Guest
Nope. The almost-but-not-quite-fully-human parents of Adam and Eve wouldn’t have been made “in the image and likeness of God.”
We could have an interesting discussion on the notion of “no death before sin”. If you want to take that strictly literally – that there was no physical death prior to the Fall of Man – then you’re gonna have a really difficult time explaining fossil fuels. However, if you take that to mean that humans – who, as a body and soul composite, are now in the “imago Dei” and therefore, have eternal souls – now face the death of loss of eternal beatitude, then you’re onto something.
Our first human parents could have lived forever in Paradise. They threw that gift away.
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EndTimes
Guest
By “evolution” - are you referring to Darwinism?
Humani Generis -by Pope Pius XII answers your question -
- for not only Catholics but for anyone interested in Man’s origins…
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Gorgias
Guest
They got kicked out of Paradise. (Which, by the way, wasn’t “heaven”. You’re misreading the story if you claim that Eden was ‘heaven’.)
They – like us – only regained the opportunity for eternal beatitude through Jesus’ sacrificial giving of self.
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Gorgias
Guest
Fair enough. In Genesis, though, it’s just a “garden” (which is all the Greek παράδεισος means, anyway).
So, if Jesus describes heaven as a ‘paradise’, what of it? It doesn’t mean that our destiny is Eden.
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Gorgias
Guest
That doesn’t mean that every time the word “paradise” is used, it means the literal “Garden of Eden.”
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Gorgias
Guest
It’s not just “pressure”, though, is it? It’s pressure over time. No?
Unless you’re suggesting that “what else He can do” includes “trick us into thinking that what we perceive is a lie.” That’s something that runs contrary to His nature.
Unless you’re suggesting that “what else He can do” includes “trick us into thinking that what we perceive is a lie.” That’s something that runs contrary to His nature.
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BornInMarch
Guest
God allowed humanity to have free will. Therefore, while he could have stopped Adam and Eve from sinning, he did not because that would infringe upon their free will.
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thistle
Guest
The Church does NOT teach the earth is only a few thousand years old.
Frankly, just about everyone on the planet knows the earth is around 4.5 billion years old.
Frankly, just about everyone on the planet knows the earth is around 4.5 billion years old.
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thistle
Guest
I repeat that the Church does NOT teach that the earth is a few thousand years old!!
Show us the Church teaching to backup your claim. There is no dogma regarding this. You have produced nothing yet.
Also the Church does NOT teach there was a global flood and nor does it teach that creation was done in 6 literal 24 hour days.
Show us the Church teaching to backup your claim. There is no dogma regarding this. You have produced nothing yet.
Also the Church does NOT teach there was a global flood and nor does it teach that creation was done in 6 literal 24 hour days.
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Latin
Guest
In The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza explains;
Page 113; “God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.” – His wisdom He so ordered the events of his sin, which He Designed, Decreed and Ordered form all eternity, reasons described in CCC 310; 311; 314; 324; etc.
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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In THE PROBLEM OF EVIL Peter Kreeft explains;
“Who’s to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.”
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nations.
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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As we see above: His wisdom He so Designed/ Planned, Decreed/ Orders from all eternity EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.
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God bless
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Latin
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How mankind is culpable for a sin he was destined to commit?
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It is true; God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.
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Yes it is also true; His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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THE REASONS, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end:
311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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The end is that all creatures will manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man will glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
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THIS IS ABOVE THE VERY REASON OF CCC 310, With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
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So, God created the dramas of evil and sin for the benefit of the entire human race.
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God bless
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Pai_Nosso
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@Chistian-ity. I totally understand what you are saying. You could go on with further questions like why did the rest of humanity have to suffer for Adam and Eve’s sin.
I noticed that you only made 3 posts in this thread which you began. Why? Maybe your a bit like myself. Getting frustrated as no one seems to want to acknowledge your statement. Instead I see a bombardment of different types of explanations that are so illogical they sound like poor excuses.
Im not a fan of the mental gymnastics some people use to try to explain it all, as if we know everything. I concede to the fact that there is so much more that we aren’t aware of.
So rather than trying to find a defense for God’s actions I am happier saying I don’t know. There is more to the story that we don’t know about and/or cannot comprehend from our human perspective with our limited minds.
So I submit on such matters that are unclear to me and say “I don’t know God, your wisdom is far beyond any humans” and so I put my faith in him
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thistle
Guest
There is no Church teaching (neither infallible nor non-infallible) that teaches the earth is only a few thousand years old. I asked you to produce such a teaching and you have failed to do so because it doesn’t exist.
In fact ask any member in this thread if they agree with you that the Church teaches a young earth.
Catholics are free to believe whatever they want on this.
In fact ask any member in this thread if they agree with you that the Church teaches a young earth.
Catholics are free to believe whatever they want on this.
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Vico
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The death from original sin, per Council of Orange, is twofold, of the body and of the soul. The dogmatic teaching applies to Adam and Eve and their descendants. For death of the body: “The Fathers regarded bodily immortality as being transmitted through the tree of life.” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 104.
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Gorgias
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For only forty days? Insufficient.
Hmm… at the very least, by the time of Augustine, folks were already saying “this doesn’t make sense, as a literal narrative”.
And… just because you believe it doesn’t mean that the Church does teach it.
Wow… did you just go there? Are you really saying “meh… all ya’ll heathens can believe something different than I believe, and at best, you’re not damned”…?
The invalid extrapolation that you’re making here is that “5199 years” is a doctrinal teaching. It isn’t.
Hmm… at the very least, by the time of Augustine, folks were already saying “this doesn’t make sense, as a literal narrative”.
And… just because you believe it doesn’t mean that the Church does teach it.
Wow… did you just go there? Are you really saying “meh… all ya’ll heathens can believe something different than I believe, and at best, you’re not damned”…?
The invalid extrapolation that you’re making here is that “5199 years” is a doctrinal teaching. It isn’t.
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Gorgias
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First true human being? Yep.
We would have to discuss this. I think you’re taking it places that the Church doesn’t take it…
That depends on the way you interpret Paul.
Invalid conclusion. Sorry.
Notice that your quote from Trent talks about death in the context of Adam and his posterity only.
Actually, what you did was quote teachings and then asserted your own conclusions from those teachings. It’s your conclusions that are getting the response “not quite”, not the teachings themselves.
Not doctrinally.
You’re seeing doctrine where there is none being asserted.
Not every “official Church document” presents doctrinal teachings.
No. And no. And “in part, but not in toto.” Just because the Church publishes it, doesn’t imply “doctrine or dogma”. Just because doctrine or dogma is present in a Church document, doesn’t imply that every word in the document is doctrine/dogma. This is literally what the Church teaches us. Is this something with which you’re unfamiliar?
All agree on that. This doesn’t, however, imply that they were the first hominins.
the documents you quoted speak to “human death”, not “physical death”.
Invalid conclusion. Sorry, man.
Merry Christmas, @(name removed by moderator)!
We would have to discuss this. I think you’re taking it places that the Church doesn’t take it…
That depends on the way you interpret Paul.
Invalid conclusion. Sorry.
Notice that your quote from Trent talks about death in the context of Adam and his posterity only.
Actually, what you did was quote teachings and then asserted your own conclusions from those teachings. It’s your conclusions that are getting the response “not quite”, not the teachings themselves.
Not doctrinally.
You’re seeing doctrine where there is none being asserted.
Not every “official Church document” presents doctrinal teachings.
No. And no. And “in part, but not in toto.” Just because the Church publishes it, doesn’t imply “doctrine or dogma”. Just because doctrine or dogma is present in a Church document, doesn’t imply that every word in the document is doctrine/dogma. This is literally what the Church teaches us. Is this something with which you’re unfamiliar?
All agree on that. This doesn’t, however, imply that they were the first hominins.
the documents you quoted speak to “human death”, not “physical death”.
Invalid conclusion. Sorry, man.
Merry Christmas, @(name removed by moderator)!
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ThisOne
Guest
How did they, coming before Jesus came to Earth, benefit from His work? Are you saying that all humans who came before Him were at some point given the opportunity to accept Him as their savior?
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thistle
Guest
First that is not a teaching of the Church. It is simply a list of saints.
Second, what does that have to do with the age of the earth??
Second, what does that have to do with the age of the earth??
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