How did Vatican II affect the Eastern Catholic Churches?

[Holly3278]

Hi everyone! How did Vatican II affect the Eastern Catholic Churches?

 

[ciero]

Hi everyone! How did Vatican II affect the Eastern Catholic Churches?

Vatican II was wonderful for the Eastern churches in communion with Rome!! The council encouraged us to reclaim our traditions and to get rid of Latinizations. It forced even those bishops who were very happy with the status quo to change. Granted that change has taken quite some time for some of the churches(and is still going on in some), but without the push from Vatican II it probably never would have happened.

To bad it didnt have the same effect on the Western church.

 

[Holly3278]

Vatican II was wonderful for the Eastern churches in communion with Rome!! The council encouraged us to reclaim our traditions and to get rid of Latinizations. It forced even those bishops who were very happy with the status quo to change. Granted that change has taken quite some time for some of the churches(and is still going on in some), but without the push from Vatican II it probably never would have happened.

To bad it didnt have the same effect on the Western church.

Interesting. Well, I’m certainly glad that it had a good effect on the Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Vatican II was wonderful for the Eastern churches in communion with Rome!! The council encouraged us to reclaim our traditions and to get rid of Latinizations. It forced even those bishops who were very happy with the status quo to change. Granted that change has taken quite some time for some of the churches(and is still going on in some), but without the push from Vatican II it probably never would have happened.

To bad it didnt have the same effect on the Western church.

I tend to disagree with this position. Are you at all familiar with the work and efforts of such great men as Patriarch Gregorios II Youssef-Sayour (Melkite Greek Catholic), Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky (Ukrainian Greek Catholic), and Fr. Cyril Korolevsky (Russian Greek Catholic) all prior to Vatican II? These men all worked tirelessly to restore Eastern (Byzantine) Christianity to its full dignity. In fact, but for the efforts of Sheptytsky and Korolevsky the “Ruthenian Rescension” wouldn’t exist. One could also argue that, but for the efforts of Gregorios II things like the “Zoghby Initiative” and the “Ratzinger Formula” might also have never been. What Vatican II did was remove the persecution (no, it’s not too strong a word) that such people met with whenever they tried to be authentic Eastern (Byzantine) Christians.

 

[ciero]

I tend to disagree with this position. Are you at all familiar with the work and efforts of such great men as Patriarch Gregorios II Youssef-Sayour (Melkite Greek Catholic), Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky (Ukrainian Greek Catholic), and Fr. Cyril Korolevsky (Russian Greek Catholic) all prior to Vatican II? These men all worked tirelessly to restore Eastern (Byzantine) Christianity to its full dignity. In fact, but for the efforts of Sheptytsky and Korolevsky the “Ruthenian Rescension” wouldn’t exist. One could also argue that, but for the efforts of Gregorios II things like the “Zoghby Initiative” and the “Ratzinger Formula” might also have never been. What Vatican II did was remove the persecution (no, it’s not too strong a word) that such people met with whenever they tried to be authentic Eastern (Byzantine) Christians.

Philip I dont disagree with your statement but i would like to clarify. In my belief, without Vatican II and its directives to the Eastern churches, there probably never would have been a widespread movement to rediscover our traditions, spirituality and liturgy. I do believe that without the heroic work of these men the directives of Vatican II never would have come about.

 

[malphono]

Vatican II was wonderful for the Eastern churches in communion with Rome!! The council encouraged us to reclaim our traditions and to get rid of Latinizations. It forced even those bishops who were very happy with the status quo to change. Granted that change has taken quite some time for some of the churches(and is still going on in some), but without the push from Vatican II it probably never would have happened.

I suppose this may be true if one looks at “Eastern” in its technical sense, which is synonymous with “Byzantine” but I’m not sure that was the question in the OP. But, if one looks at “Eastern” in its more generic sense (as would probably be the case among most in the Latin Rite), it also includes what is called the “Orient” and that changes things quite a bit.

In principle, what the Council called for was fine, and I certainly do not have (and never have had) any objection. Nonetheless, whatever the Council may have encouraged, what happened in actual fact in certain of the Oriental Churches has been completely different. And I will add that if the trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization that has consumed the Maronite Church in particular, is not stemmed and reversed, (and soon), the it (the Maronite Church) will cease to exist.

To bad it didnt have the same effect on the Western church.

When one looks at post-conciliar developments in the Maronite and Syro-Malabar Churches, it (the Council) had exactly the same effect there as in the West. (The only part of the West that seems to have escaped is the Mozarabic Rite which, if my understanding of things is correct, has actually experienced a restoration (and de-Romanization) of its traditional usage. None of the other Western usages has been so fortunate.

 

[Formosus]

I tend to disagree with this position. Are you at all familiar with the work and efforts of such great men as Patriarch Gregorios II Youssef-Sayour (Melkite Greek Catholic), Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky (Ukrainian Greek Catholic), and Fr. Cyril Korolevsky (Russian Greek Catholic) all prior to Vatican II? These men all worked tirelessly to restore Eastern (Byzantine) Christianity to its full dignity. In fact, but for the efforts of Sheptytsky and Korolevsky the “Ruthenian Rescension” wouldn’t exist. One could also argue that, but for the efforts of Gregorios II things like the “Zoghby Initiative” and the “Ratzinger Formula” might also have never been. What Vatican II did was remove the persecution (no, it’s not too strong a word) that such people met with whenever they tried to be authentic Eastern (Byzantine) Christians.

The Council itself allowed for many oppurtunities for many Eastern Catholic Bishops to speak up and have their say in front of their Latin peers. The work of the Eastern Bishops at Vatican II was the continuation of the work of great men like + Andrej Sheptytsky. I suppose it all could have happened with out the council, but I don’t think it would have as much force as it does today.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hello Ciero and Formosus,

I agree with both of you. My only point is that Vatican II did not begin the process of de-latinization among the Byzantines (perhaps I misunderstood your first post, Ciero). Rather it removed much of the opposition and persecution that had been experienced by those attempting to “Easternize” the Byzantine Catholics prior to Vatican II.

It saddens me to hear about the Maronites. I’ve never been to a Maronite Quorbono, but I’d like to go some time. I wonder if there are any good resources out there that deal with Maronites and their authentic Maronite heritage.

 

[malphono]

It saddens me to hear about the Maronites.

You’ve no idea. It saddens me a lot more.

I’ve never been to a Maronite Quorbono, but I’d like to go some time.

If one pays attention, one should notice the Novus Ordo-isms without a problem.

I wonder if there are any good resources out there that deal with Maronites and their authentic Maronite heritage.

To my knowledge, not in English. There are some things in French and, of course, in Arabic, but none available in the US. It’s not very likely to happen, but maybe one day I’ll get off my fat hynie and write one. In the meantime, one can look through some posts in this forum for some clues.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hello Malphono,

I’ve seen/heard excerpts from the Maronite Quorbono. The first thing that stuck out to me was the horrible translation of the Creed and some of the more Novus Ordo-sounding hymns.

Are you at all familiar with St. Maron Publications? Do they have any good/worthwhile books?

 

[malphono]

Hello Malphono,

I’ve seen/heard excerpts from the Maronite Quorbono. The first thing that stuck out to me was the horrible translation of the Creed and some of the more Novus Ordo-sounding hymns.

It gets far worse than that. And it doesn’t affect only the English translations either.

Are you at all familiar with St. Maron Publications? Do they have any good/worthwhile books?

In general, what’s available is exactly the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinized texts and explanations (read: justifications) of same. If you have a specific title in mind, let me know and I’ll see if I know something more about it.

 

[Patchunky]

It gets far worse than that. And it doesn’t affect only the English translations either.

In general, what’s available is exactly the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinized texts and explanations (read: justifications) of same. If you have a specific title in mind, let me know and I’ll see if I know something more about it.

I pray that the Holy Spirit and St. Romanus opens the minds of your Bishops and that your church doesn’t go through what we are going through in the Ruthenian church with the “wanna-be’s” and "I know what’s best for you"s running the show. :byzsoc:

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

It gets far worse than that. And it doesn’t affect only the English translations either.

In general, what’s available is exactly the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinized texts and explanations (read: justifications) of same. If you have a specific title in mind, let me know and I’ll see if I know something more about it.

Right now the only Maronite material to which I have access is the book “Captivated by Your Teachings” by Fr. Anthony J. Salim. Some of the books from St. Maron’s Press that interest me are: “The Divine Liturgy of the Maronite Church: History and Commentary” by Chorbishop Seely Beggiani: “History of the Maronite Church” by the Most Rev. Pierre Dib; translated by Chorbishop Seely Beggiani: and “History of the Maronites” by Rev. Butros Dau. If you know anything about any of these, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

 

[malphono]

Right now the only Maronite material to which I have access is the book “Captivated by Your Teachings” by Fr. Anthony J. Salim.

I know him but not the book specifically. All I am at liberty to say is that I’m of a different school of thought than the author.

Some of the books from St. Maron’s Press that interest me are: … If you know anything about any of these, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Here goes.

“The Divine Liturgy of the Maronite Church: History and Commentary” by Chorbishop Seely Beggiani:

Haven’t read it but it probably reflects the same sort of thing in the above.

“History of the Maronite Church” by the Most Rev. Pierre Dib; translated by Chorbishop Seely Beggiani: and

The translation is so-so, but it’s comprehensible and the book itself is quite good.

“History of the Maronites” by Rev. Butros Dau.

This one is also recognized to be a good source.

 

[malphono]

I pray that the Holy Spirit and St. Romanus opens the minds of your Bishops and that your church doesn’t go through what we are going through in the Ruthenian church with the “wanna-be’s” and "I know what’s best for you"s running the show. :byzsoc:

Thank you for the kind thoughts and prayers.

Let me say that we’ve got all that you have and a lot worse.

 

[Patchunky]

Thank you for the kind thoughts and prayers.

Let me say that we’ve got all that you have and a lot worse.

I don’t think so, I could you tell things that would make your hair fall out, not just curl, about what happened during and AFTER the changes we went through…

 

[malphono]

I don’t think so, I could you tell things that would make your hair fall out, not just curl, about what happened during and AFTER the changes we went through…

OK … gotcha! Been there.

At least the so-called “RDL” is (at least as far as I’ve heard, anyway) recognizable as Byzantine. The Novus Ordo-inspired neo-Maronite services are a barely recognizable shell of what they should be. (Very much like the Novus Ordo from which they take their inspiration. Gee, I wonder why? )

 

[Aramis]

OK … gotcha! Been there.

At least the so-called “RDL” is (at least as far as I’ve heard, anyway) recognizable as Byzantine. The Novus Ordo-inspired neo-Maronite services are a barely recognizable shell of what they should be. (Very much like the Novus Ordo from which they take their inspiration. Gee, I wonder why? )

It’s the most abbreviated standardized form of DL still in use outside the SSJK.

It is a delatinization, but it also is a quasi-modernist (in the heretical sense) change. The inclusive language is theologically troublesome.

 

[grace_singh]

Hello Ciero and Formosus,

I agree with both of you. My only point is that Vatican II did not begin the process of de-latinization among the Byzantines (perhaps I misunderstood your first post, Ciero). Rather it removed much of the opposition and persecution that had been experienced by those attempting to “Easternize” the Byzantine Catholics prior to Vatican II.

It saddens me to hear about the Maronites. I’ve never been to a Maronite Quorbono, but I’d like to go some time. I wonder if there are any good resources out there that deal with Maronites and their authentic Maronite heritage.

hey brother, i was able to find this link :

maronite-heritage.com/Maronites.php

i hope this is helpful!

it seems that perhaps, had the Maronite community not come into communion with Rome all those centuries ago, that they would have continued on as a sort of more Western (geographically) branch of Syriac Orthodoxy.

 

[Patchunky]

OK … gotcha! Been there.

At least the so-called “RDL” is (at least as far as I’ve heard, anyway) recognizable as Byzantine. The Novus Ordo-inspired neo-Maronite services are a barely recognizable shell of what they should be. (Very much like the Novus Ordo from which they take their inspiration. Gee, I wonder why? )

The RDL is a mixture of Gregorian chant and some new compositions that sound like carnival music. The Easter hymn, THE ANGEL EXCLAIMED strikes entire congregations mute because it’s so bad!

When the Seminary choir was here from Uzhorod and looked at the music of the RDL, they started laughing…

We’ver had a vast majority of priests sign a petition to the Metropolitian to have the RDL removed…