How did we lose them?

[Karen107]

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Jesus couldn’t perform any miracles in his own town because he was ‘one’ of them an ordinary person from a ordinary town. A town that God called his hometown, no one realized how precious a town it really was that Our Lord lived there.

In the same way, Catholics don’t know what they have in the Church. I didn’t. I didn’t know about the Church until I really paid attention and learned about it. I took my faith for granted for many years although kind people, confession and the Eucharist sustained me until I had an ‘ah ha moment’ with Jesus and had to learn more about the Church…

 

[TK421]

It’s really not hard. Go to the Family section and read posts for ~30 minutes. Then come back here and tell me with a straight face that we’re an inspiration of humility, patience, and understanding.

The Catholic Church is holy. It is also obnoxious. It always has been. This has been the greatest struggle of the Church since it started, and it probably always will be. We have to be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves. Not shrewd serpents, who are uncharitable. Not innocent doves, who are impotent. Shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves. It is a narrow door; one in which we never actually go through on our own. We just try to aim as close to it as we can.

 

[JRKH]

Haven’t read the replies so forgive if I repeat.

There can be many reasons for this problem. First of all, how was the person raised?
Was his family devout? Did they attend Church every Sunday and Holy Day or did they show up (maybe) at Christmas and Easter?
Did they pray at home? Did he attend Catholic School or CCD classes?
Such people can (and many do) claim to be Catholic and then convert…

Even if the person was raised in a practicing household, did the parents and family actually live out their faith in the home. Attending mass on Sunday and sinning the rest of the time (without remorse) is hardly going to instill a proper faith in a child.

Another areas where a problem can come up is being raised in practicing Catholic home but still not being well grounded in the faith. For example, if the parents have a great devotion to our Lady and much of their prayer and focus is on her, a child can get the wrong idea about Mary’s proper place.
Such devotions are wonderful things, but a child needs to be thoroughly grounded in the Father, in Christ and the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[St_Francis]

Lack of strong Catholic education and lack of strong Catholic leadership would be a good place to start,

I thnk that puts too much of the responsibility on priests and nuns. One aspect of this that has not been mentioned is the importance of prayer. How can we have vocations if we don’t pray for them? How can our religious be strong if we don’t pray for them? It’s really a two-way street.

 

[JRKH]

Lack of strong Catholic education and lack of strong Catholic leadership would be a good place to start,

I thnk that puts too much of the responsibility on priests and nuns. One aspect of this that has not been mentioned is the importance of prayer. How can we have vocations if we don’t pray for them? How can our religious be strong if we don’t pray for them? It’s really a two-way street.

GangGreen’s statement need not be pointed at religious of any stripe. Strong Catholic education and leadership is most important in the home. It is the parents who will have the greatest effect on the Child’s education in the faith. Second to this is the local Church community itself - with or without a school. It needs to be strong, faithful and a good example to the kids.
With these, faithful Catholics are raised with or without formal Catholic schooling. Without these, formal schooling has an uphill battle.

Peace
James

 

[St_Francis]

GangGreen’s statement need not be pointed at religious of any stripe. Strong Catholic education and leadership is most important in the home. It is the parents who will have the greatest effect on the Child’s education in the faith. Second to this is the local Church community itself - with or without a school. It needs to be strong, faithful and a good example to the kids.
With these, faithful Catholics are raised with or without formal Catholic schooling. Without these, formal schooling has an uphill battle.

Peace
James

I fuess that all too often I have heard that similar complaint (and sometimes made it myself!) about the hierarchy.

And now I believe that we have problems because the line of passing this on has been broken for many. In my extended family, it seems that only one aunt passed her faith (of the two involved among the various members) along to her children, and I know at least one of her children is not passing the faith to those granchildren.

So many people are growing up without seeing how adult Catholics live, because their parents don’t live as Catholics.

And maybe this is a part of what Catholics see among Evangelicals and other “enthusiastic” Protestants: a huge willingness to *share *their faith and teach people how to live as Christians.

(I’m sorry if I sound erratic… I am very interested in this topic as I have been affected by it in various ways.)

 

[Cat]

I’m a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism.

The reason people stop doing something is that the thing is no longer relevant to their life.

This is true of anything that people do–a sport, a recreational activity, a fitness program, a hobby, a store, etc.–we stop doing something when it no longer fits in with our lives.

I use to take my little girls to the story hour at the library. Oh, what fun it was for all of us! But as they got older, we stopped going. It wasn’t relevant to our lives anymore.

Many people take their kids to the local skating rink and sign them up for Learn To Skate classes, often because the child attended a “Disney on Ice” show or went to a birthday party at the rink, and came home begging to learn to ice skate. About 95% of those kids will get through 2 or 3 sessions, then quit. The sport just isn’t meaningful to them anymore. The other 5% keep it up and often get quite advanced, and about 95% of them will quit when they turn 14-16 years old. The sport loses its relevance in the face of high school, getting a job, getting a drivers license, getting a boyfriend, visiting colleges and trade schools, doing other high school activities, etc.

The same thing happens with church. Protestant or Catholic, many people are enthusiastic members for a while. Then they get a new job and it’s hard to find time for church, or they have a baby and start missing church, or they move and just never take the time to settle into a new church, and before long, church and various faith practices (prayer, reading the Bible and other books about faith, listening to Christian music, attending church festivals and events, getting the children enrolled in religious education, etc.) is no longer part of their lives.

IMO, one of the ways to keep people in church is to make it relevant to their lives, and the way to do this is to get them involved in an on-going service activity. For me, it’s playing piano. If I stay away from church for many weeks, people will ask, “Where’s the piano player?” It’s hard for me to be gone!

There are many activities that people can get involved with: various teaching ministries, actual service work (cleaning, gardening, volunteering in the office, etc.), serving on various committees and boards, music ministries, sponsoring youth, prayer chains and groups, Bible studies, social clubs, etc.

These activities keep church “relevant.” They become part of your life and something to look forward to. You get to know the others in your “group,” and then you feel accountable to these people–you don’t miss church very often because they would be calling you to make sure you’re OK.

I think this is where Evangelical Protestant churches attract a lot of people–they present all these opportunities to newcomers and ask them point-blank, “What are your spiritual gifts? Where would you feel most comfortable? What would you like to do here?”

From what I have seen, Catholic churches only seem to do this once a year, and they don’t do it face-to-face, they do it on a survey that you fill out while sitting in a pew. How impersonal!

All of this is outlined in First Corinthians 12-14, where St. Paul discusses the spiritual gifts and describes how the Holy Spirit gives each believer various gifts that are to be used for building up the Church. If we would live out these chapters in our parishes, I think we would retain more people.

 

[Cat]

There’s another reason why people leave churches.

They’ve been hurt.

This happens more often than we all want to admit or recognize.

It doesn’t have to be something big, like abuse. Sometimes the hurt happens when a parishioner is consistently unfriendly or rude, and eventually says something that is simply unforgettable.

Sometimes people are hurt when they are involved with a ministry, and their ideas are ignored or even denigrated or ridiculed. This is really difficult, to put your time and heart into a cherished project, only to have a newbie come along and snatch it away from you.

When people are hurt, they tend to leave and not go back to any church because they don’t trust “church” and “church people” anymore. It’s supposed to be a safe place and people feel betrayed not only by their own human peers, but by God Himself when they get hurt in the “safe” church.

 

[rcwitness]

Not quite true actually. Evangelicals are extremely adept at converting lukewarm catholics to zealous evangelical Protestantism. But aside from those converting due to marriage, I don’t think I’ve ever met a protestant convert to Catholicism who was just nominal, half-hearted as a protestant and encountered Christ in the person of a catholic believer who then played a big role in his conversion.

As a general rule (which always have exceptions, I realize!), protestant converts to Catholicism were already strong believers before converting. By contrast, converts from Catholicism to Protestantism were pretty lukewarm at best when they were catholics.

It’s a significant difference that says both good and bad things about both sides. There’s still a fair amount of truth to the old saw that Protestantism makes crowds of converts while Catholicism makes a handful of saints. Would be nice to keep the best of both worlds, eh?

That’s an interesting point.

I am a convert from protestant upbringing to entering the Church. I think it is so much like you say. Protestants seem to convert to Catholicism through a pre existing accepting the gospel Truths, then receiving the depth of Communion with Jesus the Catholic Church offers. Catholics who convert to Protestantism seem to have gone through the motions of sacraments but never believed in the message behind them. (What they listened to at Mass and were not able to accept Him, really does puzzle me.)

Like you also allude to is the concept which these Catholics who have “found” Jesus outside the Church are actually leaving the Church instead of reforming the things (within their community) which caused them doubt Jesus

I am more and more convinced that bad examples and people who have a religious facade (sp?) while not showing a genuine Spirit of faith contribute soo much to losing Catholics to Protestantism.

Peace
Michael

 

[Per_Crucem]

How did we lose them? From your post it sounds like you mean converts to evangelical Christianity.

The answer is, IMO, rather surprising when you look deeply at it. We lose them the same way that the evangelical communities lose them in turn a decade or two down the road. Bear with me.

It doesn’t sound charitable, but the facts on the ground suggest that the sort of “evangelical experience Christianity” you are referring to is the exit ramp from Christianity that leads to secularism.

Here’s the process I’ve observed (first hand as I belonged to such a protestant group in college):

1. Nominal Christian with a lukewarm faith at most and little to no real Christian community support in his own life experiences enthusiastic evangelical believer and is intrigued.
2. He then is introduced by the evangelist to the evangelist’s community and is really intrigued. After a time immersed in this ‘fellowship’ he conflates enthusiasm and faith and concludes that he never himself previously had any faith. Maybe it’s even true.
3. He decides that he never had faith because he was brought up in a polluted version of Christianity and decides to leave and go where the “real believers” are so that he can be “fed by the Word.” What he really means is keep experiencing God in a community of believers. He’s simply persuaded that they got that way via their diligent attention to Scripture.
4. Over time, the enthusiasm fades and he tries desperately to prop it up because he’s built his faith on feeling that enthusiasm. They do rock beat worship music, do evangelism rallies with light shows, they parade a non-stop litany of conversion testimonies to stoke the flames.
5. Eventually, the enthusiasm fades anyways and the props no longer keep it up. Maybe he jumps to a new church. More often he grows in frustration and bitterness takes root. God no longer seems to answer his prayers. He drops out of activities. Eventually, he stops going to church. He becomes cynical about the “religious right” and his conscience brings to light many of the serious over-simplifications and intellectual dishonesty that exists in the American evangelical world (7 day creationism, biblical literalism in general, actual homophobia, absurd prohibitions on playing cards, alcohol and dancing).
6. He tosses baby Jesus out with the bathwater of American evangelicalism and becomes just another secularist.

This isn’t just me pontificating. The churn rate at many of the non-denom ‘churches’ is extremely high, look it up. It’s because they build the person’s entire perception of what faith is on the emotional surge of initial conversion. When the feeling fades (as it always does, even for saints like Mother Theresa), so does the faith.

So as I said, the thing he left for is also the thing he’ll leave the new place because of, eventually. He just doesn’t realize that he is leaving the Lamb and veggies of Catholicism for the Big Mac & fries of Flashinthepan Community Church. Even the congregations themselves follow that pattern. Look at Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral. He pulled 'em in, got 'em riled up and enthused and had nothing more to offer when the enthusiasm dulled. No sacraments, no millennia old churches.

I would say this is a pretty good estimation of what happens. Nothing really I would disagree with here. It is much the same for those who leave a nominal faith in Lutheran churches and go to evangelicalism. Ultimately, it is a distrust in the sufficiency of one’s Baptism.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

That’s an interesting point.

I am a convert from protestant upbringing to entering the Church. I think it is so much like you say. Protestants seem to convert to Catholicism through a pre existing accepting the gospel Truths, then receiving the depth of Communion with Jesus the Catholic Church offers. Catholics who convert to Protestantism seem to have gone through the motions of sacraments but never believed in the message behind them. (What they listened to at Mass and were not able to accept Him, really does puzzle me.)

Like you also allude to is the concept which these Catholics who have “found” Jesus outside the Church are actually leaving the Church instead of reforming the things (within their community) which caused them doubt Jesus

I am more and more convinced that bad examples and people who have a religious facade (sp?) while not showing a genuine Spirit of faith contribute soo much to losing Catholics to Protestantism.

Peace
Michael

Maybe it’s not Jesus that they doubt.

 

[dronald]

How did we lose them? From your post it sounds like you mean converts to evangelical Christianity.

The answer is, IMO, rather surprising when you look deeply at it. We lose them the same way that the evangelical communities lose them in turn a decade or two down the road. Bear with me.

It doesn’t sound charitable, but the facts on the ground suggest that the sort of “evangelical experience Christianity” you are referring to is the exit ramp from Christianity that leads to secularism.

Here’s the process I’ve observed (first hand as I belonged to such a protestant group in college):

1. Nominal Christian with a lukewarm faith at most and little to no real Christian community support in his own life experiences enthusiastic evangelical believer and is intrigued.
2. He then is introduced by the evangelist to the evangelist’s community and is really intrigued. After a time immersed in this ‘fellowship’ he conflates enthusiasm and faith and concludes that he never himself previously had any faith. Maybe it’s even true.
3. He decides that he never had faith because he was brought up in a polluted version of Christianity and decides to leave and go where the “real believers” are so that he can be “fed by the Word.” What he really means is keep experiencing God in a community of believers. He’s simply persuaded that they got that way via their diligent attention to Scripture.
4. Over time, the enthusiasm fades and he tries desperately to prop it up because he’s built his faith on feeling that enthusiasm. They do rock beat worship music, do evangelism rallies with light shows, they parade a non-stop litany of conversion testimonies to stoke the flames.
5. Eventually, the enthusiasm fades anyways and the props no longer keep it up. Maybe he jumps to a new church. More often he grows in frustration and bitterness takes root. God no longer seems to answer his prayers. He drops out of activities. Eventually, he stops going to church. He becomes cynical about the “religious right” and his conscience brings to light many of the serious over-simplifications and intellectual dishonesty that exists in the American evangelical world (7 day creationism, biblical literalism in general, actual homophobia, absurd prohibitions on playing cards, alcohol and dancing).
6. He tosses baby Jesus out with the bathwater of American evangelicalism and becomes just another secularist.

This isn’t just me pontificating. The churn rate at many of the non-denom ‘churches’ is extremely high, look it up. It’s because they build the person’s entire perception of what faith is on the emotional surge of initial conversion. When the feeling fades (as it always does, even for saints like Mother Theresa), so does the faith.

So as I said, the thing he left for is also the thing he’ll leave the new place because of, eventually. He just doesn’t realize that he is leaving the Lamb and veggies of Catholicism for the Big Mac & fries of Flashinthepan Community Church. Even the congregations themselves follow that pattern. Look at Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral. He pulled 'em in, got 'em riled up and enthused and had nothing more to offer when the enthusiasm dulled. No sacraments, no millennia old churches.

1. All their new found friends leave them because reasons.
2. They under no circumstances have Bible groups, seniors groups, young adult groups, youth groups, alcoholic anonymous groups, or any kind of support groups… Also cause reasons.
3. No attempt is made to keep them in the Church; they just hope rock music will do the trick.
4. They don’t learn anything about their Faith nor are taught how to evangelize and show love to others.

I doubt it.

 

[dronald]

I think this is where Evangelical Protestant churches attract a lot of people–they present all these opportunities to newcomers and ask them point-blank, “What are your spiritual gifts? Where would you feel most comfortable? What would you like to do here?”

From what I have seen, Catholic churches only seem to do this once a year, and they don’t do it face-to-face, they do it on a survey that you fill out while sitting in a pew. How impersonal!

All of this is outlined in First Corinthians 12-14, where St. Paul discusses the spiritual gifts and describes how the Holy Spirit gives each believer various gifts that are to be used for building up the Church. If we would live out these chapters in our parishes, I think we would retain more people.

Thank you for your honesty; as this is exactly my experience. The people are extremely loving and won’t let you go. They want to grow with you in Christ and everything is about prayer. They all share passages on facebook, start prayer groups, small groups, apologetic groups, etc.

Sunday is everyone’s favourite day (or Saturday night if that’s the case) because it’s communion with your “family.” The people who show you love in your spiritual life when others won’t. It’s fantastic, and what a lot of people hard on their luck need.

 

[Karen107]

I think in the Protestant Churches its often about going there for the preacher… The preachers are good at what they do and can pack em in, but we’re not supposed to go to mass for the preacher, we’re going there to be with God in the community of the ‘cloud of witnesses’. To make mass relevant and important to us, we must participate in the mass, not rely on how powerful the preaching is or the music is… We must pray…a persons spiritual gifts are not the focus of the mass, Jesus is…

As the scriptures say:

1 Corinthians 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Well if people don’t participate in the blood of Christ, they might not get much from the mass, we’re not there to be entertained and taught whatever truths a particular Preacher has to say on a particular day, but really to be with Jesus. Sometimes I hear protestants say things like ‘I have the holy spirit in me’ but as for Jesus, Jesus will come at the end of time, It gives me pause because I think Jesus is here, do they know this and why don’t they know this? How can they make a non-religion out of a belief that is clearly religious?

 

[rcuk]

As OP, just to summarise some of the key responses which I think do well towards answering the initial question:

"God works subtly. When we receive the Eucharist, or any sacrament for that matter, we do not see the heavens open up and angels blasting their trumpets (although, we know that beyond the veil these are actually happening). As much as we may want, nothing external appears to happen even though we have just consumed the most sublime gift mankind will ever receive. For many, faith assures us that we have received Christ and he is filling us with his grace. We recall our Lord’s words to Thomas - “blessed are those who have not seen yet believe”.

For others, the lack of fanfare that accompanies the Catholic sacraments is off putting. There is too little emotion involved. They cannot feel the presence of our Lord, and so they doubt. This leads to seeking alternate means of spiritual fulfillment. Perhaps in a Church were the sermons are stirring and passionate, where emotional altar calls are common place, will serve to fill the void. These assemblies seem lively and joyful compared to the “dead” Catholic Mass. What irony."

• from christus_vincit

manualman: Really enjoyed your thought process and steps to secularism- very interesting: “4. Over time, the enthusiasm fades and he tries desperately to prop it up because he’s built his faith on feeling that enthusiasm.”

…Seems to me, manualman, that this is where the sacraments are needed!

Quote from Tooktoolong: “I can only say this-the church, in my opinion didn’t go wrong at all. I haven’t seen the video, but I know people like that from personal experience”

…You’re right. Up to the individual to seek and find- even within the church. The journey doesn’t stop in the church foyer- you have to go in and explore.

Cat:

"There’s another reason why people leave churches.

They’ve been hurt.

This happens more often than we all want to admit or recognize.

It doesn’t have to be something big, like abuse. Sometimes the hurt happens when a parishioner is consistently unfriendly or rude, and eventually says something that is simply unforgettable. "

…Very true. I am trying to heal a wound inflicted by a family member on my wife when she was a child. I am now trying to bring her back to the church and make her understand that it was not the ‘church’ that caused this wound or taught this erroneous hurt which she felt.

 

[rcwitness]

Maybe it’s not Jesus that they doubt.

Maybe its the authority Jesus gave His Church that they doubt.

When this authority which Catholics recognize is abused, it causes some to step aside from a hardship whom that abuse fell on.

I believe we have two kinds of Protestants who differ very much:

1.) Someone who was received into the faith and participated in Confirmation, and the Mass (I dont say Baptism, because infant Baptism alone does not hold someone accountable without the neccessary gospel which brought their Baptismal forgiveness), and still did not “know” Jesus personally. These then, hear a Gospel which contradicts (or accuses) the Gospel which they participated in unworthily (because they did not believe), and claim to “Know” Jesus through this seperate Gospel. They then determine the fault of their “Not Knowing” Jesus while participating in the Catholic faith, to be the Catholic faith itself!

2.). Someone raised in a Christian community who have either not been taught the Teachings of the Catholic faith at all (this was me) or were taught a misrepresentaion of the Teachings and with no fault of their own, reject what they believe to be from the Catholic Church Infallibility (or official Teaching, or Magisterial Interpretation, or Apostolic Authority). These (misunderstandings) contradict the basic understanding of the Gospel which they may genuinely know, and some even have very strong depth in the Word of God, which along with their Baptismal forgiveness, brought them true salvation (thus a real Communion with the Catholic Church).

Paz de Cristo
Michael

 

[Dorothy]

Maybe its the authority Jesus gave His Church that they doubt.

When this authority which Catholics recognize is abused, it causes some to step aside from a hardship whom that abuse fell on.

I believe we have two kinds of Protestants who differ very much:

1.) Someone who was received into the faith and participated in Confirmation, and the Mass (I dont say Baptism, because infant Baptism alone does not hold someone accountable without the neccessary gospel which brought their Baptismal forgiveness), and still did not “know” Jesus personally. These then, hear a Gospel which contradicts (or accuses) the Gospel which they participated in unworthily (because they did not believe), and claim to “Know” Jesus through this seperate Gospel. They then determine the fault of their “Not Knowing” Jesus while participating in the Catholic faith, to be the Catholic faith itself!

2.). Someone raised in a Christian community who have either not been taught the Teachings of the Catholic faith at all (this was me) or were taught a misrepresentaion of the Teachings and with no fault of their own, reject what they believe to be from the Catholic Church Infallibility (or official Teaching, or Magisterial Interpretation, or Apostolic Authority). These (misunderstandings) contradict the basic understanding of the Gospel which they may genuinely know, and some even have very strong depth in the Word of God, which along with their Baptismal forgiveness, brought them true salvation (thus a real Communion with the Catholic Church).

Paz de Cristo
Michael

Very insightful post…thank you!

 

[JustaServant]

But- if the average person doesn’t look- they might miss it. How can this be? Surely all Catholics, receiving the Eucharist and sacraments, should be filled with the holy spirit, understand the fullness of their faith, and therefore remain in the bosom of the church with all her help and graces instead of leaving to find this personal encounter elsewhere?

Well, the CC “lost” me for nearly twenty years, so I can only speak for myself.

1. The family one grows up in has a hugh influence on the formation of a person’s faith. That goes for any church Protestant or Catholic. If the family is nominal, the children will be nominal and will look for fulfillment elsewhere.
2. The local Parish must take an interest in the generation they are responsible for. Young people are the future of the Church, if you don’t cultivate it, it won’t grow.
3. Emotional maturity has a lot to do with it. Nominal Catholics are in awe when they enter the evangelical church with toe-tapping music, enthusiastic people, and strong preaching. As the person matures, there is a drive for something far deeper than the smoke and mirrors.
   Even then, there is no guarentees. There will always be wandering people who seek a God who looks and talks pretty much in tune with the image they see in the mirror.
   Maturity is realizing God does not agree with me.

 

[Joy2day]

If one believes that the catholic church is the Body of Christ and that Christ is with His church always, then it will naturally follow that a similar % of people will leave the Church as they left Christ when He walked on earth. In fact, before His crucifixion, everyone deserted Him. He used to have more than 12 apostles, but others dropped away. There are stories of the rich man who wanted to follow Him, but walked away sad when he was asked to give up all his riches and follow Christ. The gospels are the story of Christ’s life on earth - need we really think it will be very different today? He came into His own, but His own rejected Him. He came into the world, but the world received Him not. The son of man had nowhere to lay His head. In fact, even when those claiming to be His followers will say to Him ‘but we followed you on earth’, He will say to some of them ‘get away from me you evil doers, I never knew you’.

For those who stuck with Christ: St Peter died upside down on a cross, St Paul was beheaded, St Mary Magdalene became celibate, St John moved far away with Our Lady. Not for the faint hearted. Jesus never promised life would be easy. He never said His kingdom was of this world.

 

[Tom_Baum]

If there is one thing we can be certain of about God it’s that he will not lead us away from the truth. He can neither deceive nor be deceived. So with confidence, it can be said that God would never lead someone away from the truth of the Catholic Church into another form of Christianity.

That being said, you are correct in saying that the concept of being “outside the Church” may not be black and white. The Church recognizes elements of the truth in many religions, including non-Catholic Christian denominations. However, this does not mean that one would ever be led by God away from the Church. Why lead from the fullness of truth to only fragments of truth? That is not how God operates - and we are allowed to assert this fact because we are assured by God Himself that it is true.

As far as “That is not how God operates - and we are allowed to assert this fact because we are assured by God Himself that it is true”, could be that “God operates” in ways that may not be “seen” by us since “our sight” is not quite up to snuff, so to speak, and that are known to God alone.

Just what is “outside the Church”?

The “Church” itself does not give any “concrete”, so to speak, answers, just as you said.

By the way, when Jesus said, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me”, He said that there was only one way to the Father, He did NOT say that there was only one way to God or to Him, it says “to the Father”, it does NOT say “to God”.

We should not forget that God Is a Trinity.

My opinion, and it is my opinion, is that we should let God be God and remember that it was God Who became One of us by God’s decision and besides being the Saviour of humanity and the world by this act and all that it includes, this “Incarnation” should also speak to us about more that just our Salvation.