How did we lose them?

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Do they actually say this? Or do they teach us not to ‘replace’ a non-Catholic service with the Mass?

Peace
Michael
I remember that being said in the distant past (I am a senior, senior citizen 🙂 ) because the Catholic congregation was less literate about their faith and would easily become confused by attending a friend’s service. (even though the Catholic would not omit Mass afterwards.)

It is my understanding that the Catholic should never omit Mass, but can attend with a non-Catholic their service when invited. Of course, they need to be strong in their faith, and also be able to discern if the intention of the non-Catholic party is to start bombarding them with reasons why they should not be Catholic,… in that case they should not attend.

Of course, Catholics should not receive “The Lord’s Supper” in a Protestant Church.
 
I would never call John Calvin’s “Institutes” a plastic pot. Reformed Seminarians spend several years plowing through this massive work and dissecting the theology of Calvinism.

Many Evangelical Protestant pastoral candidates are required to earn not only a Master’s Degree, but a Doctor of Divinity degree before preaching.

I would suggest that you check out an Evangelical pastor named John Ortberg. He’s out in California at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church. He will give any intellectual a workout!
But let’s be clear here. Are you asserting that Calvin’s theology is somehow equal in value to that revealed by Christ and handed down via the apostles and their successors? Or is there a basic deficiency there that distorts the gospel and because of that tends to stunt the spiritual growth of it’s adherents?

I don’t think it’s arrogance to say that erroneous theology tends to lead to warped spirituality. Seems like plain old reason to me. I thought I had taken pains to acknowledge that individuals can overcome that because faith is more than theology (punching out of the “pot” in my metaphor). But when that happens, it’s Grace overcoming human faults, not theology working in concert with Grace.

Again, don’t misunderstand me. There’s plenty of genuine Christian revelation in these communities that truly does assist them in coming to know and surrendering to Christ. But there is also plenty to trip them up. It’s a mixed bag not just in human faults, but through faults in teachings and beliefs. Does it utterly prevent people from becoming mature and powerful believers (some holier than I’ll ever be in this life)? Nope. Does it explain the enormous churn rate at which evangelical churches make fired up converts that later drop out into cynical secularists? I think so.
 
From my P.O.V., I have noticed that many non-Catholic Christians equip themselves with tactics to “suck one into a conversation”, like it has happened to me before. One classmate, today, recently started talking to me about majors, and then she said: " well I have no idea why we had such a deep conversation". Then I said “it must be the Holy Spirit”. Then she asked : “are you Christian?” I said yes. Then she told me to pray to God and I said I’ll ask but I’ll do only if it’s according to His will. She mentioned a story about King David’s persistence which I found true, but I know it’s also important to not “put a gun to God’s head” and ask for something we don’t know could be good or bad, if He has something better in store. At this point, I felt my blood bubble up! I dislike these one-way conversations sometimes. I guess it was because I had a crucifix on, and this is seen as “demonic” and also as a source of “humiliation” and not of humility to our Lord. There’s no Resurrection without our Sacrifice, we have to run until the end, and IMITATE OUR LORD, and have constant reminders. We can’t go around throwing Bible verses people will ignore in the street because they don’t understand the meaning or go around like we’ve won salvation when we’re just still “running the race”. I am hopeful that Heaven will be in my reach if I continue this path, but anything can happen. Evil is a-lurking, but not a-winning. That’s why I hope 🙂

🤷 Some people sometimes. When it’s not a professor, it’s a classmate, who I will admit, has good intentions in mind, but completely misunderstood. I just wish there was a way for people to understand Church teaching, not in light of the mass media and perceptions of the world at large.

Maybe people misunderstand or just dislike what our Blessed Mother said: let it be done according to His will. This doesn’t mean I’ll let life pass by and do its business without praying! Maybe she read that when I said it. If I had no idea of how vast my Faith actually is, I probably would of despaired and had many doubts because of that one conversation. The world has a way of getting, getting, and getting, and leaving all treacherous work to go for “God’s blessings” when they’re just things to boost our prosperity that God allows, not gives, for us to use for His good, not for our good. Once can be definitely rich and have no attachment to wealth, that’s good. But when we follow this equation: pleas+prosperity= God, many people will go to God just to get what they want and that’s completely misguided.
 
I remember that being said in the distant past (I am a senior, senior citizen 🙂 ) because the Catholic congregation was less literate about their faith and would easily become confused by attending a friend’s service. (even though the Catholic would not omit Mass afterwards.)

It is my understanding that the Catholic should never omit Mass, but can attend with a non-Catholic their service when invited. Of course, they need to be strong in their faith, and also be able to discern if the intention of the non-Catholic party is to start bombarding them with reasons why they should not be Catholic,… in that case they should not attend.
Of course, Catholics should not receive “The Lord’s Supper” in a Protestant Church
.
This is my understanding also. There may be some ‘bitter’ or ‘paranoid’ Catholic folk out there telling us we cannot attend a non-Cat service (Christian) and even worship with them, but until I see an actual Catholic Teaching against it, I am not convinced it is appropriate to forbid. And yes, Dorothy, we are not to receive a Communion which is opposed to the Eucharist!

As long as we do not think our duty to come together for the Mass can be substituted by a Protestant service, we can hopefully even have good fellowship with some. I’m not actually looking to do so, but my whole family is Protestant (my U.S. family;)) and I may join them occassionally if the situation arrises.

I study my Catholic faith and try to do my best conforming to Our Lord. This means seeking what is pleasing to Him.

A Protestant service is in no way intrinsically evil! I consider it to be a glorified bible study. The former Catholics (who received Confirmation in an age of reason, which I hope all do) which have departed from fullness of faith are a bit of a different story to me. I think they have some reconciliation shoved under the carpet, no matter how many good works they may do.

Paz de Cristo
Michael
 
I totally agree with what ManualMan in particular said.

I think part of the problem is that we talk so much about certain parts of the faith and hardly mention other parts, notably the spiritual life. We know that the rosary is a Catholic thing, bit how many Catholics actually pray the Rosary? How many continue to learn beyond Confirmation?

Sometimes I think that a good number of Catholics who leave do so because they feel that something is lacking and they may not even be able to articulate it, much less figure out how to find it in the Church. In fact, the internet may be helping Catholics to find what they are looking for within the Church.
Totally agree! I am a cradle catholic but my catechism foundation was so shaky that every time a Methodist friend sneezed, I have to double check on my faith. It became worse during college, not attending Sunday masses, not going to confession and after I started work, became those Easter/Xmas catholic.

The Internet is of tremendous help for me to rebuild my foundation. It also was a big place to sin too with all its sex, pornography, occult stuff/astral projection. I am very very thankful God did not abandon me in those periods of darkness. I never seeked other churches although other denominations did come knocking on my door. Some how Catholicism remained the one true Church that Jesus founded. At least the convent sisters got this brainwashed into me! Perhaps in those days of darkness, my more or less nightly Our Father, Hail Mary and Guardian Angel prayers before I sleep did some good.
 
Totally agree! I am a cradle catholic but my catechism foundation was so shaky that every time a Methodist friend sneezed, I have to double check on my faith. It became worse during college, not attending Sunday masses, not going to confession and after I started work, became those Easter/Xmas catholic.

The Internet is of tremendous help for me to rebuild my foundation. It also was a big place to sin too with all its sex, pornography, occult stuff/astral projection. I am very very thankful God did not abandon me in those periods of darkness. I never seeked other churches although other denominations did come knocking on my door. Some how Catholicism remained the one true Church that Jesus founded. At least the convent sisters got this brainwashed into me! Perhaps in those days of darkness, my more or less nightly Our Father, Hail Mary and Guardian Angel prayers before I sleep did some good.
🙂
 
I just watched a video called ‘Why I’m no longer Catholic’ on Youtube.

Now, I’m a recent revert to the church and I’m not confident in apologetics, but I wanted to scream at this man! Oddly enough he had disabled comments on his video! Hmm.

His main gripe, and his reason for conversion was the notion of ‘accepting Christ as my personal lord and saviour’ and making that commitment to Christ in prayer. It seems this is what had been lacking in his faith previously- a personal encounter with Jesus.

But- as catholics- we can all do this! We can all say this! It doesn’t change catholic doctrine, and furthermore, we can be in a very close relationship with christ in the Eucharist.

***Where did we go wrong? I mean specifically if this is the argument- that Catholics do not have a close relationship or acceptance of Christ. ***I have uncovered the beauty of the church recently, and its depth. To quote Patrick Coffin- the church is like a building which you keep on exploring- and more and more floors are added. Then you go into the garden…there are flowers, and other great joys to behold…

But- if the average person doesn’t look- they might miss it. How can this be? Surely all Catholics, receiving the Eucharist and sacraments, should be filled with the holy spirit, understand the fullness of their faith, and therefore remain in the bosom of the church with all her help and graces instead of leaving to find this personal encounter elsewhere?
Well, I think were saying the same thing just saying it differently.

I am a Catholic and I have a very close relationship with Jesus and Yes, I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

We Catholics actually make altar calls in our Church. Are you surprised?

Every time I go up to the altar in a Catholic Church to receive Jesus hidden in the Eucharist, I invite Him into my heart to be my Lord and Savior! Then, I go back to my pew, I kneel and praise God and thank Him for the most beautiful gift that He could ever give me – HIMSELF!

There are probably a hundred ways “we” went wrong. Jesus never said His Church would be perfect. He protects His Church not from sinners (we are all sinners some greater some less), but from errors on truth and morals. And, were probably all different in the way we express our love for Jesus. Some of us are quiet and some us are more charismatic. Isn’t it great that God created us each so unique and different!
 
The former Catholics (who received Confirmation in an age of reason, which I hope all do) which have departed from fullness of faith are a bit of a different story to me. I think they have some reconciliation shoved under the carpet, no matter how many good works they may do.

Paz de Cristo
Michael
Yes, even Catholics who show up for Mass on Sunday not just “former Catholics”.

The confessional line is an indication of that!
 
How did we lose them? From your post it sounds like you mean converts to evangelical Christianity.

The answer is, IMO, rather surprising when you look deeply at it. We lose them the same way that the evangelical communities lose them in turn a decade or two down the road. Bear with me.

It doesn’t sound charitable, but the facts on the ground suggest that the sort of “evangelical experience Christianity” you are referring to is the exit ramp from Christianity that leads to secularism.

Here’s the process I’ve observed (first hand as I belonged to such a protestant group in college):
  1. Nominal Christian with a lukewarm faith at most and little to no real Christian community support in his own life experiences enthusiastic evangelical believer and is intrigued.
  2. He then is introduced by the evangelist to the evangelist’s community and is really intrigued. After a time immersed in this ‘fellowship’ he conflates enthusiasm and faith and concludes that he never himself previously had any faith. Maybe it’s even true.
  3. He decides that he never had faith because he was brought up in a polluted version of Christianity and decides to leave and go where the “real believers” are so that he can be “fed by the Word.” What he really means is keep experiencing God in a community of believers. He’s simply persuaded that they got that way via their diligent attention to Scripture.
  4. Over time, the enthusiasm fades and he tries desperately to prop it up because he’s built his faith on feeling that enthusiasm. They do rock beat worship music, do evangelism rallies with light shows, they parade a non-stop litany of conversion testimonies to stoke the flames.
  5. Eventually, the enthusiasm fades anyways and the props no longer keep it up. Maybe he jumps to a new church. More often he grows in frustration and bitterness takes root. God no longer seems to answer his prayers. He drops out of activities. Eventually, he stops going to church. He becomes cynical about the “religious right” and his conscience brings to light many of the serious over-simplifications and intellectual dishonesty that exists in the American evangelical world (7 day creationism, biblical literalism in general, actual homophobia, absurd prohibitions on playing cards, alcohol and dancing).
  6. He tosses baby Jesus out with the bathwater of American evangelicalism and becomes just another secularist.
This isn’t just me pontificating. The churn rate at many of the non-denom ‘churches’ is extremely high, look it up. It’s because they build the person’s entire perception of what faith is on the emotional surge of initial conversion. When the feeling fades (as it always does, even for saints like Mother Theresa), so does the faith.

So as I said, the thing he left for is also the thing he’ll leave the new place because of, eventually. He just doesn’t realize that he is leaving the Lamb and veggies of Catholicism for the Big Mac & fries of Flashinthepan Community Church. Even the congregations themselves follow that pattern. Look at Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral. He pulled 'em in, got 'em riled up and enthused and had nothing more to offer when the enthusiasm dulled. No sacraments, no millennia old churches.
I agree with the premise that emotions are the selling point, and tangible things can rile up emotion be them buildings full of people, funny looking buildings, or good talks.

The key is understanding what is, and is not an emotion and being able to control and wade through our emotions to find what we are searching for- truth.

Ask folks what love is, and most will tell you, love is an emotion.

Problem with that assessment is that we can prove love exists without ‘feeling it’. How?

A few examples - Married folks don’t have the same emotion for the spouse as was there in courtship, but that doesn’t remove love from the marriage equation. The emotion fades, but the love grows more strong and genuine.

Ever help someone pick something up that they dropped? Were you super charged with emotion before acting? The act was one sourced from love, kindness.

If when emotion fades, someone thinks that a ‘Jesus High’ will never fade with a switch of scenery, they are displaying that emotions are getting the better of them. This is totally different than switching due to a search for truth.
 
If when emotion fades, someone thinks that a ‘Jesus High’ will never fade with a switch of scenery, they are displaying that emotions are getting the better of them. This is totally different than switching due to a search for truth.
👍
 
I just watched a video called ‘Why I’m no longer Catholic’ on Youtube.

Now, I’m a recent revert to the church and I’m not confident in apologetics, but I wanted to scream at this man! Oddly enough he had disabled comments on his video! Hmm.

His main gripe, and his reason for conversion was the notion of ‘accepting Christ as my personal lord and saviour’ and making that commitment to Christ in prayer. It seems this is what had been lacking in his faith previously- a personal encounter with Jesus.

But- as catholics- we can all do this! We can all say this! It doesn’t change catholic doctrine, and furthermore, we can be in a very close relationship with christ in the Eucharist.

Where did we go wrong? I mean specifically if this is the argument- that Catholics do not have a close relationship or acceptance of Christ.

I have uncovered the beauty of the church recently, and its depth. To quote Patrick Coffin- the church is like a building which you keep on exploring- and more and more floors are added. Then you go into the garden…there are flowers, and other great joys to behold…

But- if the average person doesn’t look- they might miss it. How can this be? Surely all Catholics, receiving the Eucharist and sacraments, should be filled with the holy spirit, understand the fullness of their faith, and therefore remain in the bosom of the church with all her help and graces instead of leaving to find this personal encounter elsewhere?
You might want to start a thread for those who left. I would have a lot to say if you do. “Why did you leave?” Of course that opens people up to being bashed but those who are brave enough to respond can give you their take without all the Catholics deciding what convinced them to leave. If you want to know, ask.
 
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