How did you discern your spouse? Especially for those who did very chastely/courtship

[DL82]

Well, lots of people think it’s either sexual or platonic. Thing is, “platonic” is actually a form of love between a man and a woman, which technically makes it sexual in a spiritual sense. Second thing is, there’s the whole romantic dimension that doesn’t need to come to sexual fruition before marriage. Butterflies, anyone?

Technically, “platonic” is a historical fiction anyway - the Renaissance philosophers needed to explain away why Plato’s Socrates is always talking about the ‘love’ of young men - because his ideas on love and beauty were key to their Christian understanding of aesthetics, they couldn’t admit that it was because Socrates was most likely a pederast (as was common in ancient Greek society), so instead, they invented the idea that he was talking about a non-sexual ‘platonic love’!

On a more important note, there is a difference between romantic and sexual love. I think some of the Victorian ideas about courtship draw on Puritan ideas, which are extremely prudish, and seem opposed to romance and sex. As Catholics, we are not wrong to see sex as the purpose of dating, but sex within the context, ultimately, of a loving marriage, the good sex that God wants us to enjoy as our vocation. Chastity shouldn’t be about being unromantic, and it shouldn’t be about ignoring the realities of sexual attraction. It should be about expressing a deep romance that speaks of a deep personal commitment, a full, fruitful commitment to the good of the other, which preserves their dignity and is in keeping with what the Church teaches is the purpose of sex and marriage.

We also need to remember that most traditional marriages took place when the partners were much younger, still in their teens, and often adults needed to give them a ‘push’ in the right direction through courtship rituals. The same goes for modern books on dating and discerning a Catholic spouse - what is appropriate for a 17-year-old in High School will be different to what is appropriate for a young adult ‘starting over’ in their faith, and different to an older single person with many years of prayer and discernment behind them.

You’ve already tried the modern world’s myth “new is good” and found it wanting, beware the danger of the opposite extreme “old is good”, which is also a myth. The reality of the Kingdom of God and a truly chaste Christian culture has yet to find its’ fullest expression anywhere on earth at any time in history. Learn about the Theology of the Body, take it deeply to heart, pray, if possible before the Blessed Sacrament, and then live your life in the 21st century in the place where you are.

:twocents:

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Norsemean - was that a typo, or are you trying to tell me something?

Heh no, must be a typo

We are Catholics, not Calvinists; we believe in free will, and so must recognize that in all our decisions, including dating/discerning a spouse. We can’t say “oh, well, God’s will” if it is in fact our own wrong decisions that lead to misfortune, such as marrying outside the Church because the spouse is ineligible due to divorce w/o annulment when we have the Bible and the Church warning us against it.

Also, the Catechism refers to people’s right to choose their spouses in the section about honoring mother and father, which would pose a contradiction if our spouses were pre-picked for us.

Well, what about providence? That is not against free will, is it? We should of course try to define terms like providence, free will and divine intervention etc, to have a fruitful discussion. But it seems to me that believing in a divine plan for a marriage of two people is not the same as rejecting free will completely. I am a convert - I am convinced that that was Gods plan with my life, but it was nonetheless my own choice to convert. It seems to me that I can believe in ‘the one’ as someone God has planned for me to marry, while I’m actually marrying this person out of free will. That’s not Calvinist, is it?

Karl Keating also addressed this in a recent issue of This Rock; I do not have an online link for it yet, though.

Okay, let me know if you find it.

 

[Norseman82]

Well, what about providence? That is not against free will, is it? We should of course try to define terms like providence, free will and divine intervention etc, to have a fruitful discussion. But it seems to me that believing in a divine plan for a marriage of two people is not the same as rejecting free will completely. I am a convert - I am convinced that that was Gods plan with my life, but it was nonetheless my own choice to convert. It seems to me that I can believe in ‘the one’ as someone God has planned for me to marry, while I’m actually marrying this person out of free will. That’s not Calvinist, is it?

Sounds speculative to me.

The problem is that the whole “person God has in mind for you” has the potential to be used to try to lay a guilt trip and/or manipulate. I know it has been attempted on me.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Sounds speculative to me.

The problem is that the whole “person God has in mind for you” has the potential to be used to try to lay a guilt trip and/or manipulate. I know it has been attempted on me.

I can imagine that, but that doesn’t mean that the concept itself is false.

 

[former_Catholic]

I’ve had a few short-term (about 6-8 weeks) “relationships” that went nowhere and now I’m praying for the right way to find who God intends for me.
!

Clarify and visualize your life goals as clearly as you can. Ask God for someone appropriate with whom to share your life goals and observe very closely what subsequently crosses your path, and listen to your guardian angel when observing what crosses your path. Forget about the advice and opinions offered by well-meaning human beings; people only know what little they know of God and of life and it is not enough, not nearly enough…

I’ve been happily married for 32 years, 5 kids.
We put on our own wedding completely contrary to the wishes and well-intended advice of everyone, most of whom did not bother to attend…
My cousin, on the other hand, had the best wishes and well-intentioned advice and approving pre-marriage counseling and vociferous blessings and help of everyone in the church and greater community sanctifying his wedding and his marriage with 2 long standing friend priests vying for which would conduct the ceremony and which would merely assist… in a church big enough for all the well wishers…
and that marriage didn’t even last 5 years.

And so my advice would be to listen to what God has to say on the matter, not man.
Simply present your life goals to God.
Ask for someone to share those life goals with, and observe what crosses your path.
Watch and keep an open mind, and listen to your guardian angel.
You will be presented with a couple of appropriate options, a couple of appropriate paths either way for your consideration, and it will be up to you which path to choose.
Been there. Done that. It works.

Remaining Roman Catholic wasn’t one of my life goals, by the way, (although it well might be one of yours), just in case you were wondering.

 

[Jay82]

The pressure of dating that you call so good, actually brings out the worst in me. I lose the spirit I share so easily with friends.

Don’t feel bad, dating puts some pressure on me and makes me a bit nervous as well.

The pressure of dating that you call so good, actually brings out the worst in me. I lose the spirit I share so easily with friends.

I guess my new question is, Guys, if a woman told you she wanted too see you, consider you for a relationship, but wanted to ease into dating by first hanging out at a pub/going bowling, etc., would you accept that, as long as she was clear it was to be more than friends eventually?

I would definitely accept this and I think it would go well, regardless if it lead to anything more or not. I like this initial getting to know someone period.

I generally have this approach with girls I am interested in, although I think they eventually ‘friend-zone’ me and I haven’t had much success so far

 

[siena_avila]

I’ve been thoughtfully considering the recent discussion about “the one,” which while girlishly romantic, is not reality. Additionally, it doesn’t allow for the Catholic nature of marriage, which involves some self-sacrifice. It doesn’t seem like a good personality trait to have to go through one’s life thinking you could *only *sacrifice yourself for one solitary person.

Thanks for the advice, Former Catholic. It is my goal to stay in the faith that has brought me so many blessings, clarity, and exaltation, and of course the Eucharist. It’s my prayer God leads me to men who will be on the journey with me. And then to use my free will to actually get us together instead of shyly looking at one another all the time! And lately God’s been helping me protect myself from the anxieties I had when I initially made this thread.

Jay, I’ve heard guys are just as nervous, even more so. In fact, I was told by a few of my friends’ boyfriends and my own male friends that guys won’t ask out a woman unless they’re nearly 100% sure they’ll get a positive response. True?

I’m glad you like my idea as well. And I’m sorry it hasn’t been successful for you. I think clarity of intention and goals are important, which is why I would specify why I wanted to hang out casually (I like you, but stuffy dates make it hard for us to be ourselves, so let’s be ourselves and see if we like each other still).

 

[Maltee]

I think that the idea of “the one” implies that God created another human being, another immortal soul, just for you to perfectly fulfill you, which isn’t the case. First of all, Christ is the only one who can perfectly fulfill us. We are created to be fulfilled by God, and not any earthly creature. Second, the idea is somewhat selfish. God didn’t create anyone for you. We are each our own person. Heaven has not ordained one man or woman specifically for you as a spouse. Rather than “the one,” there are probably thousands of men or women who would make a good spouse, and a good match, for an individual. I’m sure God can lead you towards a person through circumstances and such, but that doesn’t mean that if you chose not to marry them, you’ve missed your chance at “the one” and will never get a chance again. If such a thing as “the one” existed, then whenever you had marriage problems you would have to wonder, “What if I married the wrong person? What if I missed the One?” In reality, the person you marry is “the one.” Your spouse is the one given to you before God and heaven through the sacrament of matrimony.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

I think that the idea of “the one” implies that God created another human being, another immortal soul, just for you to perfectly fulfill you, which isn’t the case. First of all, Christ is the only one who can perfectly fulfill us. We are created to be fulfilled by God, and not any earthly creature. Second, the idea is somewhat selfish. God didn’t create anyone for you. We are each our own person. Heaven has not ordained one man or woman specifically for you as a spouse. Rather than “the one,” there are probably thousands of men or women who would make a good spouse, and a good match, for an individual. I’m sure God can lead you towards a person through circumstances and such, but that doesn’t mean that if you chose not to marry them, you’ve missed your chance at “the one” and will never get a chance again. If such a thing as “the one” existed, then whenever you had marriage problems you would have to wonder, “What if I married the wrong person? What if I missed the One?” In reality, the person you marry is “the one.” Your spouse is the one given to you before God and heaven through the sacrament of matrimony.

I agree with this fully. Maybe the discussion arose because some emphasized free will by which to chose a partner, while I emphasized the hand of God in the process. This post gets the middle position I guess, and I think Maltee is right.

 

[Jay82]

Jay, I’ve heard guys are just as nervous, even more so. In fact, I was told by a few of my friends’ boyfriends and my own male friends that guys won’t ask out a woman unless they’re nearly 100% sure they’ll get a positive response. True?

I think it depends on the guy, but it is probably true for the majority. I probably fall into that category…I would have to have a reasonable level of confidence the girl is interested in me before asking her out (to throw a number out there…probably greater than 50%).

Yeah, guys get nervous as well. Or at least some do. I do sometimes and then its tough to be myself. I’ve talked with girls who have told me that I’ve made them really nervous as well and thus, the two of us being that way makes the situation difficult. I think a bit of nervousness is good though, in my opinion, it means you like the person that much.

I’m glad you like my idea as well. And I’m sorry it hasn’t been successful for you. I think clarity of intention and goals are important, which is why I would specify why I wanted to hang out casually (I like you, but stuffy dates make it hard for us to be ourselves, so let’s be ourselves and see if we like each other still).

I agree. Oddly enough, I’m in a situation like this now…just kind of hanging out with a girl as friends, doing things together in a group or just the two of us, but they aren’t ‘dates’ and I guess we’ll see where things lead. So far so good. I think this approach is good for me because I like to get to know a girl more gradually.

 

[John_AH]

Hello Seina,
To start off I am not married, but I would like to propose the way God brought her into my life.

In short God asked me to trust Hm.

After a number of rather bad experiences in relationships, I asked God the exact question you asked us, because my way was not working. His answer was to trust in Him. This started a series of events, that when looked back upon now seems nearly impossible.

What hapened was He first told me to recenter myself on Him (past relationships, I got lost). I had to let go what I learned and what I thought I wanted and put God squarely in the driver seat. Then He told me about me, He told me who I was and what I was about; the good and the bad. It was a humbling experience. Then to my joy He started telling me who she was. He started telling me of the qualities and characteristcs she would have. To top it all off He told me exactly how I would meet her and things about her background that would make me certain who she is.

Last year at the appointed time and in the appointed way, she walked into my life. Statiscially impossible to say the least, she was not a fudging of anything He told me, she was exacty who He said she would be. It gets even better… after long conversations that seemed to last forever, it became more evident just how good of a match we were. Trust in God indeed!

By giving up my choice and trusting in His, He introduced me to the most beautiful woman I have ever known (besides the holy mother).

Through her walking into my life my trust and faith in God took a huge step.
To say the least it was and still is very difficult at times, but a way that strengthens our faith and trust in Him along with revealing the one, IMHO has blessings written all over it.

God’s humble servant,
John Anthony

jmj

 

[former_Catholic]

It’s my prayer God leads me to men who will be on the journey with me. And then to use my free will to actually get us together instead of shyly looking at one another all the time!

To overcome the shyness factor, it helps to remember that all human beings desperately need to be appreciated and valued, and that the world in many ways continually disdains and devalues and alienates… well, everybody on the planet.
Appreciation is actually the single greatest prayer to help overcome shyness. The method is that you simply ask God to help you appreciate in some small way, in the name of God, all of the people that you meet, and you practice with feeling and expressing that appreciation toward them in some small way until it becomes automatic. Give it a week and see if it helps. Give it a year and you’ll be able to walk out on stage and face an audience.

 

[siena_avila]

Maltee and LongJohn, you make sense.

Jay, I’m glad things are working out for you!

John AH, congrats on your marriage! That’s pretty sweet that

He told me exactly how I would meet her and things about her background that would make me certain who she is.

I’m sure I’d be too anxious if God told me it’d be a guy named Seamus Lee Catholic, and I’d spend many nights Facebook stalking the men with that name. Or that some sunny October day, he’d walk into the Bible study. But I’d be anxious as to which one! Some of your story sounds like the perfect justification of the idea of “the one.”

However, I’m reminded of the movie When Harry Met Sally. Sally, newly single,doesn’t want to date, but her friend wants to set her up, feeding her this myth about the one : “All I’m saying is that somewhere out there is the man you are supposed to marry. And if you don’t get him first, somebody else will, and you’ll have to spend the rest of your life knowing that somebody else is married to your husband .”

I actually do trust in the Lord, and His mother (I’ve prayed a 54-day novena about this), and I believe I’m slowly starting to recognize not “my” husband, but rather, husband material in the men I meet. Now I just have to let my guard down and allow myself to feel for someone.

Thanks for the tip, former Catholic. I’ve been trying to do that with customers who can sometimes frustrate me!

 

[Jay82]

Jay, I’m glad things are working out for you!!

Well…we’ll see…

However, I’m reminded of the movie When Harry Met Sally. Sally, newly single,doesn’t want to date, but her friend wants to set her up, feeding her this myth about the one : “All I’m saying is that somewhere out there is the man you are supposed to marry. And if you don’t get him first, somebody else will, and you’ll have to spend the rest of your life knowing that somebody else is married to your husband .”

I actually do trust in the Lord, and His mother (I’ve prayed a 54-day novena about this), and I believe I’m slowly starting to recognize not “my” husband, but rather, husband material in the men I meet. Now I just have to let my guard down and allow myself to feel for someone.

I really like the movie When Harry Met Sally, but I don’t agree with the line you quoted. You’ll cross paths with the right person eventually…other people will be marrying all the time, it doesn’t mean that one of those guys was supposed to be for you. The fact he ended up with someone else is evidence (to me), that he was never meant to be with you in the first place, so don’t worry.

Just put yourself into situations where you can meet nice guys and things will soon fall into place before you even realize it.

 

[rapunzel77]

For many years I was single and unhappy. I prayed for my future spouse everyday. Eventually, I found him on a Catholic dating website. Since we are both older, we wanted to cut to the chase so we were totally transparent with each other. I know that will probably not work with everyone but any relationship must be built on trust and friendship for it to be stable and solid. After about 2 weeks of talking on the phone and internet, I knew I was in love with him and he was in love with me. We just knew but at the same time we were praying together, especially the rosary and consecrating our relationship to the Immaculate Heart. Our Lady helped us to decide.

We didn’t follow any particular model since it was a long distance relationship at first. In fact, I was the one who invited him to chat with me on the website so we weren’t following the “Victorian” rules that the man is supposed to ask out the woman. For a couple of years I tried to wait and see if any men were interested in me online or anywhere else but that wasn’t working. I felt lonely and depressed because I believed that no one would consider me to be a desirable mate. I had to take matters into my own hands.

The Victorian model is unrealistic, especially now and there were drawbacks to it in the 19-20th centuries as well. Spouses need to be able to trust each other and form a strong bond of friendship. So many people were in unhappy marriages just as they are today. I feel that transparency is better than finding out major failings after the marriage. It saves some heartache.

 

[John_AH]

Seina,
God speaks to everyone in their own speical way. There is not one way in which we will meet, find, or be found. That is the reason why I am being vague.

He did not tell me her name, he told me speicific information about her. So in order to meet her I had to be out and about to basically discover someone who had been right infront of my eyes for nearly a year. It was only when we started talking did all the things He told me long ago started to fit.

Your spouse is supposed to help you grow closer to God. There is no reason why your search or wait for that person should not do the same thing.

Waiting promotes patience & searching promotes perserverence & loving every one and being open to everyone you meet is following in His footsteps.

God Bless,
John Anthony

 

[ExDeoVita]

Thanks for the info VonDerTann!

The pressure of dating that you call so good, actually brings out the worst in me. I lose the spirit I share so easily with friends.

I guess my new question is, Guys, if a woman told you she wanted too see you, consider you for a relationship, but wanted to ease into dating by first hanging out at a pub/going bowling, etc., would you accept that, as long as she was clear it was to be more than friends eventually?

I’m not sure if everyone is using the same or even the correct definition of courtship here. For a long time I didn’t know the difference, and I think a lot of people mis-understand the terms or use them synonymously.

Allow me to post an article that describes the differences between dating and courtship and predicate my response on the definations used in this article.

tob.catholicexchange.com/2010/07/19/2058/

Personally, I would only consider a relationship if it were courtship, or if it were to become courtship relatively soon. I can see how a particular scenario may alter my approach: If a young man really doesn’t know a young lady that well and wants to meet her once or twice before entering into courtship than I would say yes, but the courtship would happen relatively soon or the two would part ways.

However, I think many people already know enough about the person they are interested in (otherwise what is the interest based on) to enter into a courtship right off the bat. I like the idea of courtship because it is ‘cutting to the chase’ and ‘getting on with it’. It seems very refreshing in a society where the casual dating scene seems perpetual and never really goes anywhere.

If we premise our intentions on the fact that the relationship whether dating or courtship should be ordained to finding the right spouse than I think the dating thing gets cut out of the equation.

So I suppose my response to your question would be yes, given the relationship would in fact be courtship and the ‘easing into part’ would only last one or two encounters.

*My response however presupposes that it would be a guy asking a girl out - I really don’t know how I would react if it was a girl that took the first step, I’m pretty sure I would feel emasculated to some degree. Call me old school, but I think the guy should make the first step, and I would follow up by asking the girl’s father for permission to court her if things got that far…

 

[ac_claire]

I actually do trust in the Lord, and His mother (I’ve prayed a 54-day novena about this), and I believe I’m slowly starting to recognize not “my” husband, but rather, husband material in the men I meet. Now I just have to let my guard down and allow myself to feel for someone.

I think this is very wise. The whole, there’s only “one” person out there for you idea doesn’t seem very rational to me, nor is it anything that’s in the Bible or in Church writings, so…

With me, I met someone through an online evangelization group. (Catholic, of course.) We got a long so well and could talk so easily together…we just ended up getting close that way, as friends. But I knew he was “husband material”…We spent about a year just getting to know eachother, but most of that time was online. So I could see that in real life it might not take nearly that long.

We were both Catholic, we both knew we wanted to get married one day (to someone!) and have families. Very strongly felt that we wanted children and a traditional family life, etc.

When we met in person we went to Mass every day together and prayed for discernment. We both had a “feeling” that we had found our spouse. I think that this feeling was from God. Sometimes he works with our feelings, you know? Why wouldn’t he…he created us as emotional as well as rational beings.

So we got married two years after meeting online and one year after meeting in person. Got pregnant on our honeymoon! In our case it was just that he fit all the criteria I had always had for my future husband. And I’m not talking shallow things like hair color, etc. I mean the non-negotiables like being Catholic, wanting a family, sharing the same immediate and long-term goals, values, etc. And we got along. We “clicked” in all the ways that you would with a best friend…we could talk for hours…we got eachother’s sense of humor…we are alike in some ways and complimentary in other ways. I could totally imagine growing old together and never getting bored with eachother.

It does sound like a cliche, but seriously put it in God’s hands. Trust Him and if this is your true vocation, He’ll eventually point you to the right person. I have absolutely NO DOUBTS about this.

 

[siena_avila]

First, I did not contextualize the quote enough. I put as promulgation of the myth of “the One,” which I don’t necessarily believe in. Rather, what I’m discovering through prayer is that God is working on my heart to see the package of “the One” (faithful Catholic, good communicator, embodies all of C.S. Lewis’ Four Loves with me, etc.) in a guy. Much Like John AH knew his wife, but didn’t know she was his wife until it hit him that she fit what he was looking for.

I very much trust in God, but not myself. My mom wants me to ask a nice guy to coffee, but I barely know him, and in our circles, that’s tantamount to me initiating a courtship, and if I don’t want to consider it with him later, that makes him the 2nd guy of the group I’ve turned down. And once it’s off the table, the friendship is merely cordial and pleasantries. Then it’s like I’m working through the group guy by guy!

So, I’m just myself in our group situations and pleasant and waiting for a mutual drawing of hearts to one another. I’m quite content with this.

Call me old school, but I think the guy should make the first step

There are many, many guys I’ve met who never make a move and when they finally get snared by some other woman, they are surprised if they learn I was upset that I was not the one asked out because I’ve been conditioned not to “make the first move.” Suddenly, the general admonishment to not flirt excessively has become to some circles as women - do not flirt at all. And guys think we are uninterested or unavailable.

ExDeoVita, how would a woman wisely let it be known she’s available or interested in That Guy but not That Guy Over There?

I would follow up by asking the girl’s father for permission to court her if things got that far…

Not my dad! He’ll laugh and laugh and ask “Do you even know my daughter? Did you ask HER permission first? She’s 25 and 1000 miles away living on her own! That’s precious…”

In other words, know her situation and what’d she’d appreciate. Me, I’d like the guy just to introduce himself to my roommates (who have more faith than my folks) and inform his wise Catholic older guy friends that we’ve started this courtship/exclusive dating/Facebook official thing and he promises to keep chaste as we discern how God wants us to relate to each other in the long run.

 

[ac_claire]

Call me old school, but I think the guy should make the first step, and I would follow up by asking the girl’s father for permission to court her if things got that far…

I gotta agree with you here. I think taking that kind of initiative shows you that you’ve got a real man there, and indicates leadership potential which is crucial since you’re looking for someone who will provide for you and be a good husband and father.

If it’s clear he likes you and you like him back, but he is too timid to make the first move, then I’d think long and hard about whether he’d make the kind of husband and father that I want for my family. He’s ideally gotta have some natural “take charge”-ness in his blood. In my opinion anyhow.