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shelby_sun
Guest
We will all have things to answer for before God, even you.
How do catholic women or men justify their consciences with using contraception?
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Soren_Itenu
Guest
I know. Of course I do.
What do you take me for?
But one thing I do know is this: I obey the Church’s moral teachings, and when I don’t, I go to confession as soon as possible.
Do you?
What do you take me for?
But one thing I do know is this: I obey the Church’s moral teachings, and when I don’t, I go to confession as soon as possible.
Do you?
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shelby_sun
Guest
Wait a minute, why would you not obey the church’s moral teachings if you know what they are? In the back of your mind you know you can because you will easy be forgiven by going to confession.
This is something I have struggled with, prayed over, and spoken to more than one priest about. If I said I believe in what the church says when I cannot, than I am a liar, and God knows it. You seem to think this is just some whim and for many it is, but I have clearly stated that it is not how it is for me. So my question back at you, why would you ever not obey a moral teaching of the church when you are SOOO outspoken to others.
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Soren_Itenu
Guest
What?
I try to obey every moral teaching of the Church. If I fail, I go to confession. No one’s perfect.
The difference is that I’m willing to do my best to obey, not to say, “I won’t obey. I won’t confess.”
Are you trolling me, or are you naturally this obtuse?
I try to obey every moral teaching of the Church. If I fail, I go to confession. No one’s perfect.
The difference is that I’m willing to do my best to obey, not to say, “I won’t obey. I won’t confess.”
Are you trolling me, or are you naturally this obtuse?
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russet1
Guest
Let me get this strait.
You have spoken to better Catholics than me and they have told you that if you follow Catholic teaching you are an extrememist?
Hmmmm Ok. Well, I wonder if they are better than an obedient informed Catholic.
I will tell you one thing. Shelby, you state that you have considered leaving the Church.
The sad part is that you already have. If you deny the faith how can you claim the faith?
I will ask you one more time.
How can you believe in the Eucharist and 2000 years of teaching. How can you believe what your senses tell you is wrong? How can you accept the broken body of our savior but on some issues think that the Church is wrong or that you can come to a different conclusion in your timeless wisdom on matters such as human sexuality.
Come home shelby. Become Catholic.
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shelby_sun
Guest
If I don’t believe in my mind and heart it is a sin, even if the Catholic church says, why would I confess it. If I know the Catholic church says it is a sin but I do it any way because I do not believe in my heart it is wrong why would I confess it? if I did God, would know I couldn’t be sorry for what I didn’t think was wrong in the first place
?If you are trying to get me to brainwash myself into believing everything the Catholic church has said or done in moral teaching, you might as well belong to a cult. Again, this is the one thing for me, so maybe like others have suggested I go to another church, but if that is how people want to handle it, there will be millions of people leaving the Catholic church over this one issue, millions!
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Soren_Itenu
Guest
There’s no discussion left with you, shelby. You’ve apparently made your choice to not serve, to not soften your heart, to not turn to a moral authority higher than yourself. I used to be the way you seem to be – prideful. I let my pride get broken out of me last year, and it was the best thing that’s ever happened to me. I accept the Church’s authority now and have come home. I hope someday you do, too.
There will be no more replies from me to you.
If you ever want to talk again, PM me.
There will be no more replies from me to you.
If you ever want to talk again, PM me.
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shelby_sun
Guest
One year, well you are still prideful if you thought you could really “convert” someone to everything you believe with how you respond. Better not too.
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JackieMom
Guest
You know - I don’t love the teaching on contraception either. It’s always been a struggle for me, and I have FOR SURE gone through periods where I thought it was ridiculous, or shouldn’t apply to me because I had real reasons to use it, or that I should not cede control of my body and existence to celibate old men. I have been frustrated, angry, disappointed - all of it.If I don’t believe in my mind and heart it is a sin, even if the Catholic church says, why would I confess it. If I know the Catholic church says it is a sin but I do it any way because I do not believe in my heart it is wrong why would I confess it? if I did God, would know I couldn’t be sorry for what I didn’t think was wrong in the first place
If you are trying to get me to brainwash myself into believing everything the Catholic church has said or done in moral teaching, you might as well belong to a cult. Again, this is the one thing for me, so maybe like others have suggested I go to another church, but if that is how people want to handle it, there will be millions of people leaving the Catholic church over this one issue, millions!
In the Jewish tradition, part of the law is obeying God just because He said so. Some of their rules and teachings don’t have a discernible purpose, other than just seeming to make life harder for the Jews. In Catholicism, we often want and expect a clear explaination of why we’re being asked todo something. We get our catechism and our encyclicals and don’t expect to have to obey something that can’t be justified. The Jews, however, are used to being obedient just for the sake of it. And sometimes I look to that attitude when I disagree or don’t understand a Church teaching. I am obedient just for the sake of it. Just because God said so. I know I am not owed a oerfect understanding or even peace with His laws, I just have to be a good daughter and so what He says because I trust Him.
Do you agree that God knows what is best for you? Do you agree that we should honor Him with our obedience, even if we don’t like His laws? We are allowed to doubt or disagree, but we are not allowed to disobey. At times, I have felt that my specific situation warranted a dispensation from Church law. Sometimes I have felt that I should do what I think is best, and that God will see that I meant no harm. The truth is, none of us knows how God deals with willful disobedience, even when it seems justified. I fear God’s wrath, and I fear Hell, so strictly out of dutiful obedience, I obey.
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shelby_sun
Guest
JackieMom, Thank you for your response and your honesty; it is truly appreciated. Now what I am about to say is not to be argumentative or stubborn, although others will see it that way.
First, I respect the Jewish faith very much, so I think it is great that you look to it for understanding; however, has Catholic we went against their beliefs and teachings when we accepted Jesus as our savior. That said, one of us did not obey God’s way or at least are taking different routes for now.
Second, the idea of the kind of obedience you speak of has put many young people in very bad positions, many being molested by priest because they were told to obey in the name of God. I think that is another reason the church is in the state it is in. When priest, who are to follow and obey God, do not do so, and other priest cover it up or suppress information, it is much harder for people to obey, like you do, which is admirable.
I do think God knows what is best for me; maybe that is why I could not agree with this teaching. Maybe it was God’s way of keeping my marriage or prevent me from getting pregnant because I simply could not handle it; I don’t know, and again I am ready for God to enlighten me or judge me when that time comes. People say “they felt God speak to them”. Just maybe by not hearing Him He is also trying to tell us something, especially when they prayed and wrestled with the decision for so long. Those who just believe everything because the church says so scare me. Too many bad things have happened in the history of the Church,(not due to God) but the church, because people just obeyed. That is how cults work and the Catholic Church is NOT a cult.
Thank you again for your response. I am glad you overcame your limitation in obedience like you work for.
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Suslar
Guest
Do you think the Church should bow down to your level of understanding and thought or that perhaps you could make an effort to try to at least know what the teaching is and why it exists? It’s ok to question and wrestle with teachings - as long as you know what they are and actively look for resolution. No one has to believe blindly. We believe because we have both Faith and Reason. As already said, you do not have to believe “everything” to be considered “in good standing” with the Catholic Church. Specifically, you may dissent with any non-essential practice (traditions that come from the local churches in areas of discipline, liturgical form, and devotions) that does not advance you in holiness. But, we must believe all infallible core beliefs and the Precepts of the Church. Principal among these is the sacredness of all life. To reject Core Beliefs is to remove yourself from the Church. The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, is a grave sin.If I don’t believe in my mind and heart it is a sin, even if the Catholic church says, why would I confess it. If I know the Catholic church says it is a sin but I do it any way because I do not believe in my heart it is wrong why would I confess it? if I did God, would know I couldn’t be sorry for what I didn’t think was wrong in the first place
If you are trying to get me to brainwash myself into believing everything the Catholic church has said or done in moral teaching, you might as well belong to a cult. Again, this is the one thing for me, so maybe like others have suggested I go to another church, but if that is how people want to handle it, there will be millions of people leaving the Catholic church over this one issue, millions!
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Suslar
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Then I shall specifically thank God today that my credibility doesn’t come from you!
If you read the posts, I did not say anything about my education. I said it is evident that you obviously have not studied the Faith; that you lack a rigorous religious education. In your narcissism, you’ve made this thread about you. You publicly aired your sins and your marital problems. You’ve told us how your three children are a drain on your finances. You’ve posted over and over that you don’t know much about actual Church teaching and you refuse to follow any teaching that doesn’t suit you and your personal needs. You’ve said you are going to continue in sin and are ok with dying in the state of sin. nd you are not even the OP! You hijacked the thread.
You’ve asked questions and a number of us have attempted to answer them in charity. You’ve rejected every response and attacked the responder. You’ve even managed to twist responses to say the person answer your question benefits from your twisting? You’ve made judgments about people you don’t know. You’ve told outright lies. It’s obvious that you NEED the Church! Jesus came for the lost. He wants to show you the way, but it entails actually listening and being able to use your reason, intellect and heart. You have to make some movement toward Him and He will throw open wide the doors to His passionate mercy and love. By choosing not to follow His teachings, you are moving away, not toward Him. And Jesus will let you go because He loves you enough to give you free will. Did you ever consider that you cannot hear Him because you are too far away?
When you were a child, it was ok to have a child’s understanding of things. But as an adult believer, you have an obligation to learn and live the Faith as we all do. One of the best analogies is a young child thinking the sun “goes away” in the evening. When that person becomes older, their understanding grows to know the sun didn’t “go away.” What was taught was not “wrong” per se – it was at the level of a little child. Those types of explanations shouldn’t serve you anymore as you mature in spirituality. And many, many people do struggle thru a time of peeling back old understanding to grasp the fullness of the Faith in depth. We have an amazing Faith tradition already in place – none of us needs to make it up. No one on this thread twisted or added loopholes to anything – except for you.
For the record, because in your ignorance you lied about my situation, contraception was once an issue in my life. And, I took the time to seek out competent counsel, research the Truth, and read. I did not choose to persist in obstinate sin as you are. I also did not then and do not now find it necessary to change my beliefs, but to change my understanding and outlook. Human understanding is always improving and our collective understanding about God is increasing as well. I “get that” because of my Jesuit education. We were taught to think. I find it mind-boggling that you criticize my education and then praise Jesuit education without having a clue that I am the recipient of Jesuit education! In fact, I studied under one of the most brilliant Jesuit theologians of the last 200 years or so. But you don’t know that because you never asked. Nor have you asked about my life experience. You are wrong in that regard too.
You know Shelby, I really did try to offer you assistance and answers. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were not just picking a fight. Now, I can’t tell if the ad hominems are because you lack knowledge and feel cornered, just want to argue and have nothing of substance to say, or really have less than charitable intent. At any rate, I really will continue to pray for you and the hundreds like you who are so lost. May God have mercy on this Divine Mercy Sunday.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Again, Suslar, I am fully aware you can recite everything their is to know about the Catholic church and its teaching, canon law, traditions, etc. and I cannot. That is not because I am not capable of understanding. I went to 13 years of catholic school where we learned fully about the Catholic Church position on this topic in both Theology and Biology. Again, as I have said numerous times now, i spoke about it to more than one priest, so just because I am not coming around to your beliefs and the Catholic church’s teaching over only this one issue, please do not continue to tell me I do not understand. I have also said numerous times that I do not think the Catholic church should change its position just because I cannot agree.
When I was in a PT rotation doing rehab, I worked with another PT student that could tell you about any and all diseases, their symptoms, treatment plans, etc., it was truly impressive and something I could not come close to doing because I knew where to find information and I used my experience and common sense and people skills. That other student failed her rotation, and failed badly, where I received very high marks. The reason she failed is because you cannot treat every situation from a book. You cannot take every stroke victim with out considering their life situation, their other health concerns, past experiences and beliefs, the list goes on forever. God knows the different situations we are in and why we make the choice we do, the Church does not. God knows how hard I struggled with my decision and why. I have never said it is OK or said any one else should do it. What I have said is that even though I knew I was going against the Catholic churches teachings, I had a decision to make that went way beyond using NFP or taking a pill, and one I would do again.
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russet1
Guest
Shelby. You have brought up Catholic schools on several posts.
Sadly some of the most anti catholic and ignorant statements about the faith come right after the words “I went to Catholic school.”
You have done the standard.
Argued a contrary position. brought up the death penalty when talking about pro life issues, brought up the abdication of abstinence on Fridays, and of course you have to bring up sexual molestation.
You are hitting all the anti Catholic points. But those points show a gross misunderstanding of the faith. Why is that?
I am currious. In the Church of Shelby what is the moral justification for Birth Control? How does it make you holy?
Sadly some of the most anti catholic and ignorant statements about the faith come right after the words “I went to Catholic school.”
You have done the standard.
Argued a contrary position. brought up the death penalty when talking about pro life issues, brought up the abdication of abstinence on Fridays, and of course you have to bring up sexual molestation.
You are hitting all the anti Catholic points. But those points show a gross misunderstanding of the faith. Why is that?
I am currious. In the Church of Shelby what is the moral justification for Birth Control? How does it make you holy?
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Suslar
Guest
Oh my gosh! You are so right!
I too had the unfortunate experience of 13 years of Catholic school as a child - K-12. It was the late 70’s/ early 80’s where we were taught “Jesus loves you” so anything goes. It was terrible! Teachers then were not certified. Many barely knew the Faith. Many others had their own agendas. I feel truly sorry for my peers of this generation who were the product of any type of less than orthodox religious instruction (Catholic schools or CCD). These are the people who think they know everything because they went to Catholic school. Sadly, I know from experience, they tend to be the least catechized but also the least able to acknowledge it. It is the hardest group to evangelize.
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Suslar
Guest
Thank you for that affirmation. I really do work hard to ensure my beliefs are what the Church teaches in regards to Faith and Morals. The Church is a wise and benevolent teacher!
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shelby_sun
Guest
Well Suslar, you got your rant because I simply do not believe in one (ONLY ONE) teaching of the church; one I have spoken in depth with to more than one priest. I brought up my situation because I had actually been through what the OP asked about, so instead of hear second hand or those with no experience at all, I mentioned it.
If you knew me you would know that I believe I know NOTHING about ANYTHING except what I feel, and again I cannot think or feel something I simply do not, no matter what someone like you says or how horrible you sound!
You talk about twisting words, I have NEVER said I was right, holy, saved, excused, educated or anything else. I did not hijack this thread you kept responding, not to help me but to convert me. You did in fact bring up your education if you bothered to read what you wrote before sending. You said you had several years in graduate level course, which you should be very proud of because I know the time and effort all those course took, but don’t lash out at me because I don’t agree with everything you and the church want me too. It shouldn’t matter to you and if your are upset that is on you/. No one forced you to read my post anymore, and I actually would have thought this thread would have stopped long ago, but I was not about to sit back and have people twist my words either!
BTW I went to a Jesuit grade school and have been around the Jesuit all my life. When I told them my situation they said I must pray about it and follow my heart, that God understands much more than we do. I hope someday you have that kind of understanding because of your last post I find you less than kind or holy yourself. I speak everyday to the priest about my post and I assure you they would find yours much less charitable than mine. They find my lack of being able to ask forgiveness not at all prideful, but coming from a lack and inability to love myself. You said it yourself you were wasting your time post to me, now I hope you feel better.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Suslar, one last thing and than I am done. I NEVER said my children are a drain on me financially. I chose to sent them to Catholic school, something I said I was grateful for everyday as I am everything in my life. They a gift and a blessing for God, For you to twist my words like was just flat out mean and really needs confession. How dare you???
Mark121359
Well-known member
Back to the OP’s original question. I’m not at all surprised as to how catholic men or women justify their consciences with using contraception. When you consider their position on all the other social issues. I know I’ve posted this poll on other threads, but I consider it relevant to the title of this particular thread. Look at these numbers from a Gallup Poll done in 2008.The number next to each reflects the percentage of Catholics that think it’s morally acceptable. The number next to the first number is regular churchgoing Catholics (defined as those who attend church weekly or almost every week)
Peace, Mark
I mean, seriously now, How in the world am I supposed to be surprised that most Catholics don’t give a hoot about contraception, when you see these numbers staring back at you! Talk about a crisis of faith! No wonder Fr. Menezes exclaimed “Appalling,” when I heard him on the radio in one of his Father of Mercy talks cite similar numbers. I heard Mother Angelica say on last night’s live classics show, that this world is in serious, serious trouble…and that episode was from 1999. Amen, serious trouble indeed! God love ya Mother Angelica! I miss your words of wisdom! I cringe at what you would have to say about the state of this world a la 2013!..
Peace, Mark
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Suslar
Guest
No one save God alone has to power to grant Faith and thereby convert people. As I have written multiple times in this discussion, no one on CAF can change another’s thinking and it would be silly to think anyone would be persuaded with an argument.
Still, it’s not just to make false statements. While I mentioned Catholic schools in an early post, I did not bring up my education until post # 191 and later in post 194. Nowhere have I mentioned when, where or how long I studied or what degrees, if any, I hold. You made assumptions and in post 192 attributed great brilliance to me, “Again, Suslar, I am fully aware you can recite everything their is to know about the Catholic church and its teaching, canon law, traditions, etc. and I cannot.” Thank you for that vote of confidence even though it is not true. I did not say I had “several years in graduate level course” - I said I synthesized grad level material for your benefit. (Try re-reading post 166).
I didn’t “lash out” at you. I don’t care if you agree with me. A person’s Faith should have nothing to do with me – it’s all about God. I’m not upset in the least. I’m simply astounded by your posts. You asked questions and with great love for a fellow sister in Christ, and obviously at great risk to my own character, I tried to help you. Believe what you will, but think about rereading each promise I made to hold you in prayer. I took those very seriously. I was at Church this afternoon for a Divine Mercy holy hour and did offer the entire time on my knees for you and your needs knowing well that God know what those are. If that sounds “horrible” to you or less than charitable, then so be it but it’s all I have to offer you since words written here seem meaningless. God’s peace to you, Shelby. .
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