How do catholic women or men justify their consciences with using contraception?

[russet1]

I didn’t know we were required to judge peoples sins on this thread and I already acknowledged that I judged and should not have. You seem to have an issue with my not doing things as YOU see fit as far as pointing out the evil of others. I am so glad you find yourself to be such a good Catholic speaking out against evils, some of us do not have a talent for it any more than we have a talent for singing in the church choir, and you certainly wouldn’t want me doing that either. Some of us go out and help those who have had evil done to them instead of using words to correct the evil done. I do believe it takes all kinds. Is that not OK with you.

Of course it is ok with me. I am currious as to what your tallent is?
We have established that it is not speaking out against the evil of contraception.
So what is it? And was posting on this thread a mistake?
I do consider myself a good Catholic if by that you mean Obedient to the Church and to God. Have I failed? Yup you bet! But it is important to remember that Augustine, our most trusted source on moral theology was quite the sinner as was Paul. And both of them had no problem preaching against sin. It is our duty to live the Gospel and spread it. If you like certain aspects of the Gospel more than others then I guess you will only feel comfortable with certain ways to live it. But remeber that you should perform the spiritual works of Mercy. It is your calling as a Catholic. And while you might not be comfortable with say, “Admonishing the sinner” you still are called to do it! Just like Someone else might not be comfortable with clothing the naked or feeding the hungary it is still their Cathoic obligation as well!
I wish you good luck and am sorry this subject casued you grief. But It seemed pretty clear what this thread would entail from the title.

 

[einna]

Of course it is ok with me. I am currious as to what your tallent is?
We have established that it is not speaking out against the evil of contraception.
So what is it? And was posting on this thread a mistake?
I do consider myself a good Catholic if by that you mean Obedient to the Church and to God. Have I failed? Yup you bet! But it is important to remember that Augustine, our most trusted source on moral theology was quite the sinner as was Paul. And both of them had no problem preaching against sin. It is our duty to live the Gospel and spread it. If you like certain aspects of the Gospel more than others then I guess you will only feel comfortable with certain ways to live it. But remeber that you should perform the spiritual works of Mercy. It is your calling as a Catholic. And while you might not be comfortable with say, “Admonishing the sinner” you still are called to do it! Just like Someone else might not be comfortable with clothing the naked or feeding the hungary it is still their Cathoic obligation as well!
I wish you good luck and am sorry this subject casued you grief. But It seemed pretty clear what this thread would entail from the title.

Certainly didn’t sound ok to you. No not a mistake to post here. After reading your post I feel much better with myself. Funny thing you mention protestants a few times because to me you sound like every hard core baptist preacher I have ever heard. Best of luck speaking out against all evil, but there are more graceful and charitable ways to do it, but of course that is not required. Just FYI, there are other post going on right now where they are defending the use of contraception, make sure you do your duty to respond:thumbsup:.

 

[russet1]

Back to the subject.
Here is a quote from an archbishop in detroit.
Archbishop Allen Vigneron:

“For a Catholic to receive Holy Communion and still deny the revelation Christ entrusted to the church is to try to say two contradictory things at once: ‘I believe the church offers the saving truth of Jesus, and I reject what the church teaches,’ ” Vigneron told the paper. “In effect, they would contradict themselves.”

And.

“If a Catholic publicly opposes the church on a serious matter of the church’s teaching, any serious matter – for example, whether it be a rejection of the divinity of Christ, racist beliefs, support for abortion or support for redefining marriage – that would contradict the public affirmation they would make of the church’s beliefs by receiving Communion.”

The Archbishop said this things in the context of the Gay “Marriage” debate but I think it is important to notice that he was specifically addressing on apporaching for comminion while in contradiciton with the Church on a serious matter. Which birth control certainly qualifies as.

Again, this is not new teaching it is Catholic teaching. If you oppose the Church or are not in a state of comminion with the Church and Her teachings you need to refrain from the Eucharist.

You simply cannot disagree with the Church on “Just this one issue” and be a faithful Catholic!

 

[Soren_Itenu]

All I see here is Catholics fighting.

The world laughs at us and asks us where our so-called brotherhood is.

We hate our fellow Christian brother and sister more than the world.

 

[russet1]

Certainly didn’t sound ok to you. No not a mistake to post here. After reading your post I feel much better with myself. Funny thing you mention protestants a few times because to me you sound like every hard core baptist preacher I have ever heard. Best of luck speaking out against all evil, but there are more graceful and charitable ways to do it, but of course that is not required. Just FYI, there are other post going on right now where they are defending the use of contraception, make sure you do your duty to respond:thumbsup:.

I thought you said you did not know anything about protestants? Perhaps your specialty is Baptist theology. Apparently, by what you state, you hear many of them. I did not grow up baptist and you identify as a Cradle Catholic so you must have some frame of reference I am not seeing. But, your Baptist comment seems like a way of saying I am judgemental. Was that your point? Were you pigeon holeing me and an entire denomination as judgemental? I hope not. That would not be charitable or graceful. I probably could use some tutoring on being graceful and charitable. We all could. I would love to see you model this behavior for me. So point me to the thread you are referencing and I will follow your example of charitably and grace. I have not seen you speak out against the subject on this thread. I am eager to see any approach that may help our common goal of preaching the Gospel and calling others to holiness. Out of thier sin! This is our command as Christians and most importantly Catholics. We have been lead by those who preached against the World. Against sin and who have died for it. If you have found a better way, please help me learn it. Because It seems to me that many times we try to temper our message to appease the societal norm and feelings the message is what suffers and sin is what wins.

Perhaps we should agree that sin is evil and we have to help ourselves and others conquer it. But first we have to define it. And that is what has been done on this thread. After that, you are right, there are many ways to help others out of sin. You can preach against it, love them through it, educate them about it, heck, you can even bribe them not to sin! But we need to be crystal clear about sin. Especially this one! This one is really and especially evil. It attacks the very core of creation, of humanity, of life. It casues the domestic Church of a family to be an anti life killing Church. I am sorry if I am more than a little fired up about doing battle with the evil of the world.
As the leftists love to say
“If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention.”

Pay attention!

We can continue this via PM. Please contact me with the thread in which you will demonstrate a better way to speak out agasint all evil!

 

[russet1]

All I see here is Catholics fighting.

The world laughs at us and asks us where our so-called brotherhood is.

We hate our fellow Christian brother and sister more than the world.

Yes, there is too much of that here. So do you have any comments on the Origianl subject?

I just posted a quote from an Archbishop that I think speaks to the heart of the subject. what do you think of my assertion that the Good Archbishop’s words can be applied to the direct subject of this thread and Catholic women and men justifying contraception?

 

[Soren_Itenu]

I had comments way earlier in this thread. I, too, got into fights, which I am ashamed of. I PMed and apologized to the people I’d hurt, and I won’t be dragged into another fight with my brothers and sisters on this forum. Not ever again. That’s my public promise.

 

[russet1]

I had comments way earlier in this thread. I, too, got into fights, which I am ashamed of. I PMed and apologized to the people I’d hurt, and I won’t be dragged into another fight with my brothers and sisters on this forum. Not ever again. That’s my public promise.

Ok that is great!. But what about the subject?
As an aside. A new thread on the subject of all this infighting could be beneficial.
If you start one and tell me where it is I would love to join!

 

[Soren_Itenu]

To be concise, my thoughts on the subject are this: people justify sin to themselves because human beings are excellent at self-deception. I did it for years, self-deceive, I mean, into thinking I was basically a good person when in fact I’m a horrible sinner. Now I no longer justify my sins; I just run to confession, confess, and resolve to not sin again. And when my resolve fails, I return to confession. But the thing about confession is that you have to stop the sin. For example, you cannot confess using artificial birth control if you just plan on keeping using it the next day and the next day.

/notsoconcise

 

[russet1]

To be concise, my thoughts on the subject are this: people justify sin to themselves because human beings are excellent at self-deception. I did it for years, self-deceive, I mean, into thinking I was basically a good person when in fact I’m a horrible sinner. Now I no longer justify my sins; I just run to confession, confess, and resolve to not sin again. And when my resolve fails, I return to confession. But the thing about confession is that you have to stop the sin. For example, you cannot confess using artificial birth control if you just plan on keeping using it the next day and the next day.

/notsoconcise

Absolutley! I think confession is one of the greatest gifts to any human ever. It is the only way to make ourselves whole.

 

[shelby_sun]

Back to the subject.
Here is a quote from an archbishop in detroit.
Archbishop Allen Vigneron:

And.

The Archbishop said this things in the context of the Gay “Marriage” debate but I think it is important to notice that he was specifically addressing on apporaching for comminion while in contradiciton with the Church on a serious matter. Which birth control certainly qualifies as.

Again, this is not new teaching it is Catholic teaching. If you oppose the Church or are not in a state of comminion with the Church and Her teachings you need to refrain from the Eucharist.

You simply cannot disagree with the Church on “Just this one issue” and be a faithful Catholic!

Yes, I got your message (“just this one issue”) and I agree I am not a faithful Catholic and many have helped me see that here on this thread. Thank you for helping me see that the Catholic church might not be the place for me. Although, if you are right, at least 70% of Catholics are not faithful Catholics, so the church needs people like you who are truly faithful to help in this fight.

 

[russet1]

Yes, I got your message (“just this one issue”) and I agree I am not a faithful Catholic and many have helped me see that here on this thread. Thank you for helping me see that the Catholic church might not be the place for me. Although, if you are right, at least 70% of Catholics are not faithful Catholics, so the church needs people like you who are truly faithful to help in this fight.

Shelby I absolutly think the Church is the right place for you and while yes, you caught the message, I know it is a very common one. Like you pointed out in your percentage. But that only makes more important the idea to not be one of the many going through the wide gate, but rather one of the few, going through the narrow gate.
There is no faith, no ideology and no philosophy or belief system that will bring you greater joy and reward than the fullness of the Catholic faith. I know that we are a church that is broken, that we have many who do not follow the faith and do not follow God. But the good news is you can! “Jesus, I trust in You” is not Just a nice idea but rather a full on mantra for life.
The Church is the right place for every single person on earth. That is the teaching the Faith. You belong with us, you belong to God. And ONLY in the Catholic faith are the sacraments of grace available to any sinner who wishes to take advantage.
The Church does need people like me. But it also needs people like einna. And the Church especially needs people like you. Regular people struggling through life like all of us. Stirving to be better. Allowing the Church to guide you to eternal bliss and salvation!

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby I absolutly think the Church is the right place for you and while yes, you caught the message, I know it is a very common one. Like you pointed out in your percentage. But that only makes more important the idea to not be one of the many going through the wide gate, but rather one of the few, going through the narrow gate.
There is no faith, no ideology and no philosophy or belief system that will bring you greater joy and reward than the fullness of the Catholic faith. I know that we are a church that is broken, that we have many who do not follow the faith and do not follow God. But the good news is you can! “Jesus, I trust in You” is not Just a nice idea but rather a full on mantra for life.
The Church is the right place for every single person on earth. That is the teaching the Faith. You belong with us, you belong to God. And ONLY in the Catholic faith are the sacraments of grace available to any sinner who wishes to take advantage.
The Church does need people like me. But it also needs people like einna. And the Church especially needs people like you. Regular people struggling through life like all of us. Stirving to be better. Allowing the Church to guide you to eternal bliss and salvation!

I am not going to get caught up in defending myself again. I very much admire your true devotion to the Catholic Church, but I don’t like the way you present your faith and if that is what the Catholic church has become I simply don’t belong there anymore. The priest have told me things will change with Pope Francis as our new Pope. The Jesuits are not about “judging” and point out others sins, they are about loving each other with the faults and limitations they have. They are about teaching and guiding people and letting them know God loves them and is there for them always. You seem passionate about your faith. Passion is powerful and it can be presented in beautiful, loving ways but also in an ugly, destructive ways. If you are right and this is what the Catholic church wants from us, I simply do not belong there anymore.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Hey, guys.

When I sin by being unkind here, please point it out to me. Please “judge” me. I can get better only when my error is pointed out.

 

[russet1]

I am not going to get caught up in defending myself again. I very much admire your true devotion to the Catholic Church, but I don’t like the way you present your faith and if that is what the Catholic church has become I simply don’t belong there anymore. The priest have told me things will change with Pope Francis as our new Pope. The Jesuits are not about “judging” and point out others sins, they are about loving each other with the faults and limitations they have. They are about teaching and guiding people and letting them know God loves them and is there for them always. You seem passionate about your faith. Passion is powerful and it can be presented in beautiful, loving ways but also in an ugly, destructive ways. If you are right and this is what the Catholic church wants from us, I simply do not belong there anymore.

Ok shelby. You have to follow your conscience and you are responsible for informing it. You have the information you need.
I wonder why you would walk away from Jesus himself for pride or for the advantage of not liking the way the faith is presented. Are you really Catholic?
You have a gross misunderstanding of the Pope, the jesuits and the Church.
The Pope is not going to "Change’ Church teaching on Birth control or morality.
The Jusuits are not a “liberal” “progressive” branch of Catholics. I recieved several degrees from a wonderful faithful Jesuit school. I have known them to be wise and Holy men. As in any group there are a few who differ in views but make no mistake, they are Catholic!
The Church is not a political animal. She does not change with the whims of society.
But we are way off track here.
A while ago I asked two things from you. You have done a wonderful job of deflecting.
So,

1. How can you not believe the Church on a matter than can be logically defended. (Like the immorality of Birth Control) but yet accept something like the Eucharist. Do you know what the Eucharist is?
2. How can you justify Birth Control as something God wants? Take all the Catholic stuff out of it, just between you and your version of God and justify sexual activity with mutilation, and subterfuge and lying. Justify it as something Holy.

 

[shelby_sun]

Ok shelby. You have to follow your conscience and you are responsible for informing it. You have the information you need.
I wonder why you would walk away from Jesus himself for pride or for the advantage of not liking the way the faith is presented. Are you really Catholic?
You have a gross misunderstanding of the Pope, the jesuits and the Church.
The Pope is not going to "Change’ Church teaching on Birth control or morality.
The Jusuits are not a “liberal” “progressive” branch of Catholics. I recieved several degrees from a wonderful faithful Jesuit school. I have known them to be wise and Holy men. As in any group there are a few who differ in views but make no mistake, they are Catholic!
The Church is not a political animal. She does not change with the whims of society.
But we are way off track here.
A while ago I asked two things from you. You have done a wonderful job of deflecting.
So,

1. How can you not believe the Church on a matter than can be logically defended. (Like the immorality of Birth Control) but yet accept something like the Eucharist. Do you know what the Eucharist is?
2. How can you justify Birth Control as something God wants? Take all the Catholic stuff out of it, just between you and your version of God and justify sexual activity with mutilation, and subterfuge and lying. Justify it as something Holy.

Please. please do not state things I have never said nor implied. I do not believe the Pope will change any moral teaching of the Catholic church, I think his message will be presented in a different way than yours. I too was born and raised by the Jesuit, being around them almost everyday of my life and I know they do follow the church teachings. BTW, they were the ones telling us that we were sinners, BUT that God loved us anyway and we needed to ask for forgiveness.

If you read all my post I have never said the church is wrong in its teaching on BC, never. It has been stated over and over that there is no justify a Catholic women using birth control, and I won’t start that again.

I also never said I accept the Eucharist, if by that you mean taking it a Mass, because I do not. Like I said anything I say you will tear apart and me along with it. There is not explanation or reasons for you.

I have a whole huge part that started long before I was even born and through no fault of my own, I face very difficult situations, but that still, to you, does not justify what I have done. I am not walking away from Jesus, I would never do that, but if the Catholic church is encouraging people to be like you for whatever moral teaching I simply do not belong there, which I am seeing more and more to be the case.

 

[russet1]

Please. please do not state things I have never said nor implied. I do not believe the Pope will change any moral teaching of the Catholic church, I think his message will be presented in a different way than yours. I too was born and raised by the Jesuit, being around them almost everyday of my life and I know they do follow the church teachings. BTW, they were the ones telling us that we were sinners, BUT that God loved us anyway and we needed to ask for forgiveness.

If you read all my post I have never said the church is wrong in its teaching on BC, never. It has been stated over and over that there is no justify a Catholic women using birth control, and I won’t start that again.

I also never said I accept the Eucharist, if by that you mean taking it a Mass, because I do not. Like I said anything I say you will tear apart and me along with it. There is not explanation or reasons for you.

I have a whole huge part that started long before I was even born and through no fault of my own, I face very difficult situations, but that still, to you, does not justify what I have done. I am not walking away from Jesus, I would never do that, but if the Catholic church is encouraging people to be like you for whatever moral teaching I simply do not belong there, which I am seeing more and more to be the case.

Can you defend your use of Birth Control as Holy or Godly?
Do you believe in the Real Presence?

Simple.

 

[jmcrae]

I am not going to get caught up in defending myself again. I very much admire your true devotion to the Catholic Church, but I don’t like the way you present your faith and if that is what the Catholic church has become I simply don’t belong there anymore. The priest have told me things will change with Pope Francis as our new Pope. The Jesuits are not about “judging” and point out others sins, they are about loving each other with the faults and limitations they have. They are about teaching and guiding people and letting them know God loves them and is there for them always. You seem passionate about your faith. Passion is powerful and it can be presented in beautiful, loving ways but also in an ugly, destructive ways. If you are right and this is what the Catholic church wants from us, I simply do not belong there anymore.

It would be impossible to point out someone else’s sins in this media because we can’t even see each other. But if someone announces that they are committing this or that sin and don’t plan to change, how are people supposed to react? “There there dear God understands” when God has already clearly promised hellfire in these cases?

When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, He did not tell her to just keep on partying - that He is okay with such behaviour - no! He said “Go, and do not sin any more.” She probably found it inconvenient to give up her boy friend and her source of income. She could have complained that the society of her time didn’t give her very many options for independently supporting herself, and she could have said, “God needs to understand
my situation - without a man and without a source of income what am I supposed to do?” But we know that she repented, and she became a Saint.

 

[einna]

I am not going to get caught up in defending myself again. I very much admire your true devotion to the Catholic Church, but I don’t like the way you present your faith and if that is what the Catholic church has become I simply don’t belong there anymore. The priest have told me things will change with Pope Francis as our new Pope. The Jesuits are not about “judging” and point out others sins, they are about loving each other with the faults and limitations they have. They are about teaching and guiding people and letting them know God loves them and is there for them always. You seem passionate about your faith. Passion is powerful and it can be presented in beautiful, loving ways but also in an ugly, destructive ways. If you are right and this is what the Catholic church wants from us, I simply do not belong there anymore.

Shelby keep following Pope Francis, I truly believe he will guide you. Keep talking to the priest you have who truly know you. Bless you dear.

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby keep following Pope Francis, I truly believe he will guide you. Keep talking to the priest you have who truly know you. Bless you dear.

Thank you.