How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[erikd]

This what you are taught; but not by the Word of God. I cited one of many passages concerning the security of the believer based upon the promises in Christ. If one cannot understand this plain-as-day passage, then the others will be as much or more confusing.

I also believe that Jesus is my Savior. What exactly does that mean? What does it mean to believe in Jesus? This is perhaps the most misunderstood philosophy of the modern era. It is one thing to say that you believe in Jesus as your personal Savior, it is quite another to say that you understand what Jesus is really asking of us. Consider this: If the Bible is inerrant, if the Bible cannot have contradictions, than how do you justify your belief with the following quotes:

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (o. rhema) that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Mt. 4: 4

I start with this to make a point: All the words of God need to be taken into account, not just the ones that seem most convenient.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, all of you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt. 5: 20

Where does it say that this person is a non-believer? Righteousness could refer to a believer who does unrighteous works, could it not?

21 All of you have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mt. 5: 21-22

Where does it say that this person is a non-believer? Where does it say this person has not accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior? Can’t this person be a believer?

30 And if your right hand offend you, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
Mt. 5: 30

Where does it say that this person is a non-believer?

48 Be all of you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mt. 5: 48

Where does it say that all you have to do is believe?

25 Agree with yours adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto you, You shall by no means come out thence, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
Mt. 5: 25-26

Where does is say that all you need to do is just believe? Remember, just two verses above that Jesus mentions hell, so he’s not talking here about an earthly prison.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word (o. rhema) that men shall speak, they shall give account (o. logos) thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words (o. logos) you shall be justified, and by your words (o. logos) you shall be condemned.
Mt. 5: 36-37

Where does it say the condemned is an unbeliever? Where does it say the condemned has not accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior? Idle words could come from a believer could they not?

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mt. 13: 41-43

Where does it say that the un-righteous are unbelievers? Where does it say that “all things that offend” refer only to non-believers? Don’t you know any believers who sin? Isn’t a sin an offense?

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt. 13: 47-50

Seems to be talking about good and bad; not the believer and the unbeliever.

If you’re looking for verses which tell you exactly what you need to do, perhaps these three might be useful. Faith and works are necessary here, and these verses are not in contradiction with any other verse, when taken in correct context.

21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. (works)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (faith): depart from me, all of you that work iniquity.
Mt. 7: 21-23

You see, in the three verses above, Jesus flat out tells us that without faith, we have nothing. On that point, I think we agree. But Jesus also tells us that unless you do the will of the Father in heaven, you shall not enter the kingdom. Perhaps a full belief in Jesus means not just belief but also obedience? The real challenge of understanding Scripture is reading things in context. One line verses are only effective if they are not in contradiction to anything else within the Bible. Verses 21-23, for instance, portray the importance of both faith and works, with the emphasis on faith. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say saved by faith alone. If it did, it would be contradictory to verse 21 above.

God Bless

 

[una_fides]

This what you are taught; but not by the Word of God. I cited one of many passages concerning the security of the believer based upon the promises in Christ. If one cannot understand this plain-as-day passage, then the others will be as much or more confusing.

Why do you start with this passage on your list of “plain-as-day” passages and not another such as this one?
2Pe 2:15, 20-21 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray… For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

or this one?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

or what about this one?

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

surely this one is clear enough, no?

You see it depends on your starting point. If you start with a proof text that supports your idea that once you “accept Jesus” you are always saved, then you continue to read that interpretation into the other Scriptures because of your pre-existing belief. Today there are tens of thousands of protestant denominations all disagreeing on every issue in the Book. They cannot agree on fundamentals or even what the fundamentals are. Each denomination has its own spin on the Scriptures. The Bible is not an objective source that simply produces one and only interpretation that everyone can clearly see. There needs to be an authorized interpreter. Scripture tells us who is to interpret these things for us. The pillar and foundation of truth is not Scripture it is the Church (1 Tim 3:15). And this Church has always been led by bishops who were successors to the apostles. Here are just a few of the many verses:

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you,

Act 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

1Th 5:12 But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Luk 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

1Jn 4:6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Num 27:17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd."

John 21:15-17 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Who feeds and tends the sheep but the shepherd? Chist established Peter (Rock), on whom he promised to build the Church (Mat 16:18) and to whom he gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Mat 16:19) to be his visible shepherd of the flock after his ascension into glory.

The Christian Church has understood these truths from the beginning that for us to know the truth about Christ and his teachings, we must do so by approaching the authority which he himself has established:

St. Ignatius of Antioch, bishop and martyr, disciple of St. John the Apostle:
“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

The concept of “eternal security” and “once saved always saved” as is taught today was unknown during the early Church. You will not find early Church fathers interpreting the passages you cite in that way. If you would like me to provide you with texts from the early Church fathers in how they understood such passages and teachings you have in question, just let me know, and I will be happy to help.

 

[una_fides]

I don’t know where I made a statement that my will is Gods will; but I will say if you are filled with the spirit; you will be changed and the propensity to sin will be less and less as the Holy Spirit sanctifies us throughout our Christian life to the direction of the perfection of Christ; but never obtaining it in this life. We won’t be perfected until we see Him as He is, then we will be like Him. I never met a true and mature Christian, one that accepts God’s saving grace through faith in Christ and all that encompasses, that was concerned about loosing their salvation since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that a person of God has eternal security in Christ. If there were no other passages in all of Scripture;
1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

God bless you this night!

Do you believe that God directs and controls one’s will?

 

[erikd]

Tanner:

One more thing I wanted to put out there. As you see, I quoted you Scripture verse after Scripture verse showing you that indeed there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and I used a Bible that you are probably familiar with, the NKJV so that we can compare apples to apples. You said that I believe as I do due to the traditions of men. I also noticed that in your public profile you list Colossians 2:8 as your favorite Scripture verse:

Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ

I wanted you to consider one thing regarding this verse and your earlier statements that I believe in a tradition of men. The Catholic Church was built by Jesus Christ Himself almost 2000 years ago. I’m sure every Protestant is screaming “NO” right now, but none can prove this statement wrong. History shows us a continuous succession of Popes starting with St. Peter and continuing onto Pope Benedict XVI today. Historical writings as early as the first century show us that the Pope indeed had authority and was not afraid to enforce the mandates of Christ.

The deceit of man, forming the traditions of man, is something the Church has fought since the beginning, starting with the early heresies and continuing right into the reformation. Historical writings prove that for 1500 years the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church believed as one Body of our risen Lord Jesus Christ. It was not until the reformation that Martin Luther, through his “95 Thesis” made an attempt at challenging the Church teachings which had stood for 1500 years prior. I invite you to consider the possibility that Martin Luther, along with his predecessors Such as John Wycliffe and Johannes Hus, and along with his co-conspirators like Ulrich Zwingli and John Calvin, are the real beginning of the traditions of men. Think about it logically: These men all have some disagreements with one another. How can this be? How is it that Christianity eventually led to approx. 40,000 denominations? Could it be because of the traditions of men as taught by the originators of these traditions? Could it be that people found it easier to swallow some teaching and therefore easier to reject others? Don’t forget King Henry VIII who beheaded two Catholic Priests for not allowing to receive a divorce. Obviously King Henry VIII found it easier to eliminate the truth than to accept it. But the truth still remains. After all, did Christ teach different Gospels? Did the Holy Spirit help each one of these men to believe just a little differently? NO. Christ taught one Gospel (1 Peter 4:17) and one Gospel only. There were no disagreements between the Apostles which were not settled and agreed upon by all. That is part of what make the Church “One.” The Church believes today as it has in the past, because Christ never left His Church (St. Matthew 28: 20). The early beliefs within the Catholic faith are easily verifiable through the historical writings of the Church Fathers. If you’re not familiar with them, I would invite you to check out Catholic.com and go into their search engine, and just type in “Church Fathers” and see what comes up. You will get plenty of writings which speak of Catholic doctrines, as described by Church Fathers as early as the first century. We’re talking about people who wrote historical documents who knew the Apostles and even Christ Himself!!! Historically this will show you that Church beliefs and Church doctrines have not changed. We still believe the same way we always did. Take for instance the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary: This was written about as early as 400AD by St. Jerome. Or how about the Mass: It was described as early as 130 - 165 AD by St. Justin Martyr. He also describes the Eucharist, as does St Augustine in the early 5th century. All consistent with Church teachings then and now, and all consistent with the Word of God. I invite you to look at the historical values of these writings and how they apply to the worship of God as seen through the eyes of billions of people for the last 2000 years. I think you will find unity and oneness, of which you will not find in any Protestant community around the world. This unity cannot come from man, as man is not intelligent enough to form and make last such a wonderful creation of God.

God Bless

 

[erikd]

Do you believe that God directs and controls one’s will?

Great point Una Fides.

 

[mikeledes]

This what you are taught; but not by the Word of God. I cited one of many passages concerning the security of the believer based upon the promises in Christ. If one cannot understand this plain-as-day passage, then the others will be as much or more confusing.

The passages we have presented are also as “plain-as-day:”

2**"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit**.

“In Me” in Scripture is as “plain-as-day”. It means to be saved. I also posted the following:

That’s why as Catholics, we believe that verses like John 15:2 and John 10:28 do not contradict or overide each other. Both of these verses are affirming very important truths that can be reconciled without denying the fact, for example, that “in Me, in Him, or in Christ” uniformly means one who has been justified or that God’s plan can be frustrated. John 10:28 teaches us that those whom God has predestined are assured entrance in eternal glory, that they will infallibly be saved. Passages like John 15:2, 6 however, teaches us that not all of the justified - all of those who are in Christ - are numbered among the predestined and thus at least some of those who have been justified will fail to persevere. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus and His apostles taught the Catholic view of predestination because only the Catholic view reconciles those passages that talk about assurance of salvation for the predestined with those that talk about loss of salvation.

If Paul, for example, held the Calvinist view, then that would make him self contradictory. For example, the Calvinists hold the following theological assumptions:

1. Christ died only for the elect
2. Only the elect will be justified
3. And hence all of the justified will persevere and never perish.

However, if Paul believed and taught these assumptions, then why would he say something like this:

1 Corinthians 8:10-11

10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The Greek word here for “perish” is the same Greek word found in John 10:28. Paul primarily uses “perish” (apollumi) as a reference to eternal destruction. Now if this refers to a false professor, then it contradicts Calvinism’s limited atonement because it specifically says that Christ died for this person. If it refers to a person who is truly saved, it contradicts Calvinism’s perseverance of the saints, since it teaches that none of the justified will ever perish. So if Paul believed in TULIP, I highly doubt he would even say this. Moreover, if its is not true and impossible for my action to cause a weaker brother to stumble and ultimately perish, then Paul was lying. And if Paul taught perseverance of the saints and his audience also believed this, then what would be the purpose of Paul saying this? He would be contradicting himself.

But we know from other passages that the truly justified do fall from grace (John 15:2, 6, Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6, etc.). And hence not all of the justified belong to those who are predestined to glory, though all of the predestined will be justified. And hence Paul can both affirm the assurance of final salvation of the predestined and also loss of salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

In addition to this verse, I’ll add:

1 Corinthians 9:27

27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

That rather odd for someone who believes that he is absolutely assured of salvation to say.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

Why do you start with this passage on your list of “plain-as-day” passages and not another such as this one?
2Pe 2:15, 20-21 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray… For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

**I started with the easiest to understand, because if one cannot understand the easy & obvious, then how will one understand, what appears to be more difficult?

I’ll use 2 Peter, which you used to make some point; I believe your is that point one can loses their salvation by choosing to walk away? Correct me if I’m wrong on the basic assumption.

If you were to continue to read 2 peter 2:20-23, then the point that is made is; people are exposed to the gospel and even follow along with the crowd; then when things get boring or tough and some sacrifice is required, they say to themselves “this is not for me- see ya!”

Versus 20-23 read as follows (NASB) "For if, after they have escaped the defilement’s of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, {returns} to wallowing in the mire.”

This is clearly a piece of tare hanging around the wheat or perhaps the seed that fell among the rocks; they initially heard the gospel, like the feeling, became real excited, then walked away because they never accepted Christ on His terms; only on their terms; so eventually they return to the way they were before. Only this time it is worse because they were exposed to the Truth; whereas they would have been better never knowing the truth. These people were most likely water baptized, but never received the Spirit because God knows the intent of the heart and give his Spirit to His true children.

These are the same religious people that profess to know Christ and have been exposed to the truth; but are on the “wide way” that is marked heaven, but leads to hell in Matthew 7:13-14. I promise you many that of them were water baptized, but never received the true baptism, which is the Holy Spirit.

I am not going to address the rest of the errors you listed because you have the erroneous bent that one can lose their salvation, which the Bible makes abundantly clear; the a child of God cannot. The one’s that seem to have received “knowledge” of the word, as Peter, pointed out, were fakes and never had the indwelling of the spirit.
If you feel you can loose your salvation and you honestly believe that at water baptism you receive the Holy Spirit and still believe you can loose you salvation; then you never had it to begin with. You are among the “religious broad road” spoken in Matthew 7. That is between you, your conscience and God; I do not know you and cannot condemn you; if it were up to me I would probably convert every soul, but I am not God and thank God for that; for I would make tons of mistakes; whereas God makes none.**

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

What the heck; I’ll address this one because it so simple.
Someone willing to forgive others trespasses against them show they have Christ living in them via the Holy Spirit. Since anyone who has Christ is a new creation because the old man was put to death with Christ on the cross; they by the new nature because Christ dwells in them; they will forgive just as the Father forgives because Christ and the Father are one and a believer is one with Christ.

what about this one? Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not …in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

**This is the final response to the people on the “religious broad road” marked heaven, but leads to hell in Matthew 7:13-14 and this is the resulting words of the Lord has for those very devout religious people that have a form of godliness, but the HEART is far from Him. By the way; this is the vast majority or “many” Jesus speaks of. Do a word search on “few” and “many”; it is rather startling…God used it to get my attention and eventual conversion.**surely this one is clear enough, no?

You see it depends on your starting point. If you start with a proof text that supports your idea that once you “accept Jesus” you are always saved, then you continue to read that interpretation into the other Scriptures because of your pre-existing belief.

The antithesis is that if you believe in the preconception that you can lose your salvation; then you pick and chose your passages and ignore or distort others to fit your religion. this is why you must not have preconceived notions and just begin to read the Word of God and ask, seek and knock for the truth. If your heart is right and you are persistent; He will not turn His back on you.

 

[mikeledes]

The antithesis is that if you believe in the preconception that you can lose your salvation; then you pick and chose your passages and ignore or distort others to fit your religion. this is why you must not have preconceived notions and just begin to read the Word of God and ask, seek and knock for the truth. If your heart is right and you are persistent; He will not turn His back on you.

The exact same thing can be said about those who hold to the preconception that you cannot lose your salvation - a preconcsption that is not biblical and was not a teaching of Christianity for 1500 years until it was invented by John Calvin. Not even Martin Luther believed that. And if you hold to such an erroneous preconception, then you will pick and chose and ignore or distort those passages that contradict it, such as:

John 15:2

**2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. **
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Galatians 1:6

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 5:4 (Same group as above)

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

Hebrews 10:26-29

26For if we (i.e WE BELIEVERS) go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The following website does a really good exposition of Hebrews 6, 10, and also 2 Peter 2. It’s an Arminian website, so I ask Catholics to read with caution. But the basic point they make - that salvation can be lost - is true:

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-5-hebrews-64-9/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-6-hebrews-1026-30/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-4-again-entagled-in-corruption/

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I reaffirm the following point:

I also would like to address John 10:28. In most Catholic documents regarding predestination, this passage is often cited. The Catholic Haydock Commentary says the following:

Ver. 28. They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand. He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace. (Witham)

In other words, the Catholic Church believe that this passage is fulfilled in those who are predestined to glory and hence is primarily about those who are predestined to glory. Regarding predestination, all Catholics must uphold the following basic principles:

(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits.

It is also a dogma of the Catholic Church that those whom God has chosen to be glorified will infallibly be saved and they will be given efficacious graces, including the gift of final perseverance, that will secure their final salvation. And hence, thwe Catholic Church teaches that the number of those who are predestined is immutable, none can be added and none can be lost.

However, the Catholic Church also teaches that all of those who are predestined will be justified and glorified, but not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined. This, we believe, is not only taught by Scripture, but was the historic teaching of Christianity for 1500 years - taught by Augustine, whom Calvinists love to make reference to - and also taught by Martin Luther himself and upheld by Confessional Lutherans today. We believe that the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the predestined - and that’s because Scripture teaches one can lose his or her salvation (fall from grace) - and hence those that fall from grace and die in that state were not numbered among the predestined, though they were truly justified at one point. God allowed these to fall away, but He secures the salvation of the predestined by granting them the unmerited gift of final perseverance.

Moreover, I want to touch on the word “snatch.” The Greek word used here is harpazo, which generally means to carry off by force. Another good example of this word in Scripture is Matthew 12:29:

**"Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off ** (harpazo) his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

So “harpazo” involves force and means to overpower. God cannot be forced to do anything or be overpowered. Everything happens in accordance with God active or permsissive will. When Adam fell from his state of original rightoeousness, did Satan overpower God. No. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Adam fell. So in the case of those who do fall away, they are not being “snatched.” God allows them to fall away, but actively secures the salvation of the predestined.

1 Corinthians 8:11

11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish (Gk. apollumi), for whom Christ died?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

The passages we have presented are also as “plain-as-day:”

2**"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away**; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

“In Me” in Scripture is as “plain-as-day”. It means to be saved. I also posted the following:

In addition to this verse, I’ll add:

1 Corinthians 9:27

27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

That rather odd for someone who believes that he is absolutely assured of salvation to say.

God Bless,
Michael

**You are on the “broad religious road” marked heaven, but leads elsewhere. If you have the bent, preconception, that you can lose your salvation; not only is God a liar, but you will hear “depart from me; I never knew you”.

When I began to read the Bible I had the preconceived notion that all you had to do was believe “in God” and that He “existed”. This form of religion goes back further than your; the Jews felt that way. this is why you must Ask, Seek, and Knock through the Bible and continue banging at god’s door. When He see your hearts true intention; He will answer; but He must see a true heart and intent for Him before anything will happen; including understanding His word.

See my post to una fides; just above this one to get more detail and insight.

God bless both of you this day**!

 

[Tanner9188]

I reaffirm the following point:

**Since God is infinite and the creator; He knows all and controls all things according “to His good pleasure” or “according to His purpose”…to deny these basic truths, which permeate throughout the OT and particularly in the NT; is to deny God. Not surprising since there are two roads marked heaven, the broadway of religion’ and the “narrow path of God”-to which few find it. The result? Depart from me; I never knew you!

Once you have the preconception that you can lose you salvation; then you have just enslaved yourself to a works righteousness and put yourself under the law, which is death. Once yo truly trust God and know there is nothing you can do to obtain any favor with God, including water baptism; then you are broken before Him and if you Ask, Seek and Knock with the heart and intent for God’s righteousness, then and only then will He save you.

It is the path all the godly throughout the ages have taken; it is the narrow way that leads to life; whereas religion is the form of godliness, marked heaven, but leads to hell.**

 

[mikeledes]

**You are on the “broad religious road” marked heaven, but leads elsewhere. If you have the bent, preconception, that you can lose your salvation; not only is God a liar, but you will hear “depart from me; I never knew you”. **!

God is not a liar. That is precisely why I believe salvation can be lost:

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Only an heir can have an inheritance and you cannot have an inheritance taken away unless you are a child of God. I don’t believe God engages in vain threats.

BTW, do you believe Martin Luther and Lutherans, classic Arminians (Methodists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, etc.) that have died believing that salvation can be lost have heard or will hear “Depart from me, I never knew you?”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[una_fides]

Since God is infinite and the creator; He knows all and controls all things according “to His good pleasure” or “according to His purpose”

You still have not answered my question I twice asked you earlier. Do you believe that God is in control of your every action including sin?

 

[mikeledes]

**Since God is infinite and the creator; He knows all and controls all things according “to His good pleasure” or “according to His purpose”…to deny these basic truths, which permeate throughout the OT and particularly in the NT; is to deny God. Not surprising since there are two roads marked heaven, the broadway of religion’ and the “narrow path of God”-to which few find it. The result? Depart from me; I never knew you!

Once you have the preconception that you can lose you salvation; then you have just enslaved yourself to a works righteousness and put yourself under the law, which is death. Once yo truly trust God and know there is nothing you can do to obtain any favor with God, including water baptism; then you are broken before Him and if you Ask, Seek and Knock with the heart and intent for God’s righteousness, then and only then will He save you.

It is the path all the godly throughout the ages have taken; it is the narrow way that leads to life; whereas religion is the form of godliness, marked heaven, but leads to hell.**

I do not deny predestination, nor do I deny unconditional election. What I do deny is the man-made innovation of perseverance of the saints/ eternal security. I believe as a Catholic that all those whom God has purposed to be glorified will be glorified and their glorification He will secure with theor free cooperation. None of these can be lost. That is a Biblical truth that is dogma in the Catholic Church. But from Scripture, we also know that there will be those among the justified who will fall from grace (Galatians 5:4). And hence not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined.

I do not believe God is a liar and I don’t believe that Paul is a liar either. However, those who teach make God and Paul liars:

1 Corinthians 8:9-10

**9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? **

If true believers can never lose their salvation, then the Holy Spirit has just lied. It is impossible for the actions of one true believer to cause another true believer to perish. Therefore, if Paul says that our actions can cause a true believer to perish and that’s not true, then he has lied. But as I said, God is not a liar. It is the doctrine of eternal security that makes God a liar.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[una_fides]

I started with the easiest to understand, because if one cannot understand the easy & obvious, then how will one understand, what appears to be more difficult?
That passage is “easy to understand” for you because it is a proof text that backs up your interpretation of Scripture, which is a tradition handed down from John Calvin. It was not a tradition handed down by Christ and his apostles, for the followers of the apostles dispersed throughout the world knew nothing of it.

You continue to explain away or ignore verse after verse in Scripture that contradicts your beliefs. And it seems you do not understand that for me, those verses I cited are crystal clear. If you study the beliefs of different denominations, you will find that they all will see the Scriptures in agreement with them as being clear and those that disagree as agreeing somehow. How can you know who is right? If you are coming from your pre-existing bias that your denomination’s teachings are correct, then you will continue to fall into this trap. The only way to truly be set free is to rather than follow your own private interpretations or inclinations or that of a denomination that began 1500+ years after Christ founded his Church to instead follow the teachings that have been handed down to the saints (Jude 1:3) and which were kept by the successors to the apostles. It is only in this apostolic Tradition that you will find the correct understanding of Scripture as you beg for light from the Holy Spirit (James 4:6). If we do not beg humbly, we cannot expect to arrive at the truth.

I also have another question for you. If someone were to ask you how they might escape the defilements of the world, how would you answer? You would say something along the lines of “accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior” or something to that affect correct? So in other words, when someone is initially justified they escape the defilements of the world. You are going to counter and say that they can also escape the defilements of the world by just going to church and being a false professor because it fits in with your interpretation of 1 Pet 20; however, you have not escaped the defilements of the world unless you have been washed clean from them. There is nothing in the text itself (apart from your isogesis into the text) to indicate that this is a false escape from defilement. It clearly says they have escaped the defilement and we do that through being justified.

Mat 6:15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offenses.
You did not sufficiently explain this verse but instead focused on the preceding one. Your interpretation would say that if you do not forgive then you are a false professor. Well let me ask you this have you ever not forgiven someone? Obviously this verse is referring to sin. It says if you commit a sin of not forgiving then you yourself will not be forgiven. Hence if you commit certain sins then according to your interpretation you would have to conclude that you were never saved in the first place. Galatians 5:19-21 therefore says that if you committ fornication then you will not interhit the kingdom of God. It says that you must walk in the Spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So if you fulfill the lusts of the flesh then you are not walking in the Spirit. Can someone who is in the Spirit not walk in the Spirit? If so, then he is not producing fruit and will be thrown into the fire. Do you see that according to your theology logically speaking if someone commits any form of fornication (which would include lust as Christ himself explains) then he is not saved. Remember that for if you have ever lusted then you are not saved. You cannot have it both ways. Either you are in Christ and are not committing sin or you commit sin and your will belongs to the devil. You will know them by their fruits. If you do not live a perfect life, then you would have to conclude you were never saved in the first place. Otherwise, you make God the author of your sins and violate clear warnings given to believers that if they commit sin then they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[mikeledes]

You still have not answered my question I twice asked you earlier. Do you believe that God is in control of your every action including sin?

Here’s a concrete example of a regenerated and justified believer who turns away from the Lord and falls into gross idolatry:

**1 But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites— 2 from the nations of whom the LORD had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the LORD his God, as was the heart of his father David. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9 So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD had commanded. **

God* warned * the Israelites not to marry foreign women. Solomon did not heed this warning and his heart turned away from the Lord, practicing gross idolatry. This is clear evidence that a righteous person can turn away from practicing righteousness:

Ezekiel 18:24

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

God specifically says that Solomon had FORSAKEN Him:

1 Kings 11:31-32

** ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32 (but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), 33 because they have forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David.**

And here are some concrete examples form the New Testament:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **

And later, Paul says the following regarding these individuals:

Galatians 5:4

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We also have:

2 Timothy 1:19

**19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. **

Your faith cannot suffer shipwreck if your faith is already shipwrecked (false faith).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

The exact same thing can be said about those who hold to the preconception that you cannot lose your salvation - a preconcsption that is not biblical and was not a teaching of Christianity for 1500 years until it was invented by John Calvin. Not even Martin Luther believed that. And if you hold to such an erroneous preconception, then you will pick and chose and ignore or distort those passages that contradict it, such as:

John never invented anything; he just showed what was already there; nothing different than your Church in that regard or any church.

John 15:2
**2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. **
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace **of Christ, for a different gospel;

Galatians 5:4 (Same group as above)

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hebrews 6:4-64For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 10:26-29
**26For if we ** (i.e WE BELIEVERS) go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
The following website does a really good exposition of Hebrews 6, 10, and also 2 Peter 2. It’s an Arminian website, so I ask Catholics to read with caution. But the basic point they make - that salvation can be lost - is true:
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-5-hebrews-64-9/
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-6-hebrews-1026-30/
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-4-again-entagled-in-corruption/
God Bless, Michael
RESPONSE ON NEXT POST

 

[Tanner9188]

**
Again; I had the preconceived notion that if I just believed in God, which I have since childhood and was a “good” person, then I would be in heaven. Not till I began in ernest, then came across Matthew 7:13-14; did I realize there is much more to knowing God and more importantly God knowing and loving you. I Asked, Seeked and Knocked again and again and cried my heart out to God because I realized I was at His total mercy and nothing in me could change that. This is when God moved in my life and once I accepted God’s will and not mine; God kept His promise and gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit and my life at that point began to change. He took good friends that were not good for me spiritually right out of my life; He showed me how to grow through His word toward the love and compassion for Him and for others. I was lead to many different churches which at first appeared to be lead by God, but was actually built by men. As I grew in knowledge and understanding and continually prayed He would increase my faith and discernment and love for Him and others; then He lead me to a church to which He is building and has given me the privileged to minister to others. I was able to see what I thought were good deeds for Him, but He showed me the selfish motives that were still lurking; now I do things that i don’t even think about; I just do them, then look back and see it was God working through me and not of my own. It is an amazing transformation, but it is just as God says.

The ARMINIAN’s are clueless and use the most radical and unregenerate Christians, which they call Calvinists. I do not know of a Calvinist that believes that because you cannot lose your salvation, then sin sin sin.

Paul was accused of this very thing and exposed these phonies for what they are in Romans 6:
“1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.”**

Paul and all true believers understand that when one is saved; the old man of sin is dead and died with Christ on the cross and the resurrection is the proof to all the world that sin dominion is defeated; so those of us who have died in Christ; raise in newness of life in Christ. Therefore; we cannot only not lose our salvation, but we cannot continue as we once were. We still sin; it is not the perfection of this sinful body we still live in, but we will continue to out to death the deeds of the flesh, as Paul iterated. So the direction of the believers life will be to sin less and less and the believer will continue too become more and more like Christ. We never reach the fullness because we still reside in a sin laden body and a battle will continue to rage till we die and see Him as He is and become like Him. Know one understands this power that has not received the Spirit; no one…you can read till your blue in the face. This is why the Bible is so unique and supernatural and is called the Living Word; it is not an ordinary book written by men. That’s why I get a little chuckle whenever all of you start speaking in terms of “all those denominations” or “Catholics brought us the Bible”; It a living book and God gave it the life; for it is His spoken word. Also; knowing most, many, the majority; as God said will not find the “narrow path” that leads to heaven. That includes many, most, and the majority of JW’s, Mormons, Baptist, Methodist, Catholics, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Episcopal etc etc.

The antithesis is that in those same groups; there are a “few that find it”; there lies the hope for all that are breathing! I honestly believe there will be more children who were aborted and died of starvation and disease occupying heaven than adults. i don’t believe their new glorified bodies will be that of infants and children.

God bless all of you!

 

[mikeledes]

Mat 6:15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offenses.
You did not sufficiently explain this verse but instead focused on the preceding one. Your interpretation would say that if you do not forgive then you are a false professor. Well let me ask you this have you ever not forgiven someone?

There is another verse about the justified and forgiveness of sins:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

The king is God and the servant whose large debt is forgiven by the king is a *justified *Christian (sins have been forgiven). The servant fails to forgive his fellow servant. The king (God) is angered and withdrawa his forgiveness and reinstates the debt. The Jesus says God will do this to the apostles if they do not forgive. God will withdraw His forgiveness and reinstate their “debt” (i.e. loss of salvation) if they do not forgive. That’s why Jesus also says:

Matthew 6:14-15

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:7

7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

You still have not answered my question I twice asked you earlier. Do you believe that God is in control of your every action including sin?

**I believe from Scripture that we do sin; something God does not like or make us do. With that said; three things come to mind;

1. Romans 8:28 “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.”

This would include a believers sin!

1. Romans 8:13 “for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

This is the pattern or direction of your life in Christ; to battle the deeds (sin) of the fleshly sin nature.

1. Paul puts it all together and I feel the exact way and I hope this answers you question; please read this part of Romans 7 very carefully:
   “14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I {would} like to {do,} but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want {to do,} I agree with the Law, {confessing} that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.”

That last sentence just summarizes the true experience!

God bless - got you run for now. Sorry if I overlook some of the questions; I’m running on 3 posts and many people; so I am bound to lose my place; so thanks for reminding me and when I do not address something; unless i say otherwise it was overlooked and just ask you remind me as you did above.**