How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[mikeledes]

**
Again; I had the preconceived notion that if I just believed in God, which I have since childhood and was a “good” person, then I would be in heaven. Not till I began in ernest, then came across Matthew 7:13-14; did I realize there is much more to knowing God and more importantly God knowing and loving you. (edited due to lack off space)**

God bless all of you!

You make claims based on an erroneous interpretation of Scripture and do not really address the Scripture passages that contradict you. If what you claim is so, then please explain to us how King Solomon, who was regenerated, TURNED AWAY from the Lord - he FORSOOK God - and fell into gross idolatry? Please explain how CHRISTISNS can desert Him who called the by grace and be severed from Christ and fall from grace (Galatians 1:5,5:4)? Please explain how someone who has believed, repented, enligtened, tasted of the heavenly gift of salvation, made PARTAKER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and sanctified by blood of Christ can fall away (Hebrews 6 & 10)? Please explain how a true Christian’s action can cause another true Christian to stumble and* perish *(1 Corinthians 8)? Please explain the following:

Romans 11:20-22

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

If all those who believe have absolute assurance of salvation, then why should they fear being cut off? Why should they fear not continuing in His goodness if they have absolute assurance of their perseverance in His goodness? Why should they fear that God may not spare them if they have absolute assurance that He has already spared them? The doctrine of eternal security makes total nonsense of this verse and a number of other verses.

The impression I get from your posts is that you do not really read our posts or consider our arguments. I apologize if this is not true, but that is the impression I get. You rarely address the verses presented to you and instead cite other verses and somehow think that your interpretation of these verses override those that contradict it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

[25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

That last sentence just summarizes the true experience!

And Solomon went through this experience, as do all of the justified, and yet his heart turned away from the Lord and he forsook Him, falling into gross idolatry. And this summarizes the experience of these Christians:

Galatians 1:6 (NKJV)

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

And Paul says that these have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

And if Paul meant what you claim in that passage, then it rather odd for him to say IN THE SAME LETTER, that we should fear because if God might not spare us and cut us off (Romans 11:20-22)? If continuing in God’s goodness is inevitable because of an internal change, then why would Paul say this, undermining what he supposedly taught just a few chapters earlier? The doctrine of eternal security/ perseverance of the saints makes Paul contradict himself and makes nonsense of a number of passages:

pugiofidei.com/eternal.htm

itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/07/did-augustine-teach-eternal-security.html

God Bless,
Michael

 

[teak421]

I am wondering what the Catholic response is when Protestants site John 3:16(“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”) in support of their “saved by faith alone” belief.

I would love to see what a Calvinist does with that verse… Sure they have a good explanation.

• Michael

 

[teak421]

**
Also; knowing most, many, the majority; as God said will not find the “narrow path” that leads to heaven. That includes many, most, and the majority of JW’s, Mormons, Baptist, Methodist, Catholics, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Episcopal etc etc.God bless all of you!**

Morning,

To to clarify your statement, you believe the above listed Christian sects will not inherit the Kingdom of God? (JW’s and Mormon’s do not believe in the trinity, so I would not lump them with the others…)

• Michael

 

[teak421]

Tanner,

Do you happen to belong to any particular Christian sect? Curious…

• Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Morning,

To to clarify your statement, you believe the above listed Christian sects will not inherit the Kingdom of God? (JW’s and Mormon’s do not believe in the trinity, so I would not lump them with the others…)

• Michael

Protestants insist that they are united in the essentials or fundamentals. And yet they don’t agree on what the fundmentals are. They say that revolutions eat their own children, and this has been true in the case of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther was the one that started it, and now many contemporary Protestants would label him a a teacher of “works righteousness” for believing in baptismal regeneration, confession and absolution, and loss of salvation. And if loss of salvation is “works righteousnss”, that means that Pentecostals, Methodists, Nazarenes, Mennonites and Amish, Lutherans, Nazarenes, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. do not really teach faith alone. That’s more than half of Protestantism.

In Protestantism, each man is basically a law unto himself. Everyone of them claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit when they interpret Scripture and yet they end up with contradictory conclusions. It happened within the first two decades of the Protestant Reformation (Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Calvin, Anabaptists) and it continues today. All I know is that God is not the author of this confusion.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All

1 Tim 1: 19 holding faith and good conscience. By rejecting conscience certain persons have made a shipwreck of their faith.

1 Tim 4: 1, NOW the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Tim 5:8, If anyone does not provide for his, relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse then a unbeliever.

1 Tim 6:10, For the love of money is the root of all evils: it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs.

1 Tim 6:21,for by proffessing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith. Grace be with you.

Plain as day to me unless we pick and chose out of the biblical library .

Peace, one now1opcorn:

 

[Dogface_Soldier]

An argument from the original languages:
Here is the Douay Rheims version, which is a literal translation of the Latin Vulgate:
“For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”
In the Latin, the subjunctive is used, which is translated into English as “may” or “might” not perish (pereat) and “may” or “might” have everlasting life (habeat). The future “will not…” but “will have…” is most certainly not used. I do not know Greek, but I do have a copy of the Greek interlinear New Testament, which also has the same word construction as the subjunctive in Latin:
Joh 3:16 ουτωςG3779 γαρG1063 FOR SO ηγαπησενG25 [G5656] οG3588 LOVED θεοςG2316 GOD τονG3588 THE κοσμονG2889 WORLD ωστεG5620 τονG3588 THAT υιονG5207 αυτουG846 HIS SON τονG3588 THE μονογενηG3439 ONLY BEGOTTEN εδωκενG1325 [G5656] HE GAVE, ιναG2443 THAT παςG3956 EVERYONE οG3588 WHO πιστευωνG4100 [G5723] BELIEVES ειςG1519 ON αυτονG846 μηG3361 HIM αποληταιG622 [G5643] MAY NOT PERISH, αλλG235 BUT εχηG2192 [G5725] MAY HAVE ζωηνG2222 LIFE αιωνιονG166 ETERNAL.

There is not a promise being given that anyone who believes automatically just because he has faith alone will be saved. The text is saying that if someone believes they might not perish and might have everlasting life, meaning that through their faith they can be saved if they also persevere and work in that faith through charity. They must persevere to the end to be saved, as Christ instructs us elsewhere in Scripture. Their faith must be with works as James 2 clearly states. And the faith must be working with charity as St. Paul writes. They must also keep the commandments, as Christ and St. Paul also clearly state. (All verses available upon request.)

Sola fide is not biblical, but of course neither is sola Scriptura.

Hope this helps.

I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. The subjunctive is used to express possibility, probability, exhortation, and purpose. In particular, where the Greek ιναG2443 THAT is used, it is an expression of purpose. Verse 16 is not expressing a causal relationship, rather, it is answering why God sent Jesus. This reading is corroborated by the context in the subsequent verses. We do not have any subjunctive verb forms in English, so we have to supply other words to convey the meaning.

Consider the statement: “I applied the tourniquet to stop the bleeding and save his life”. I am expressing why I applied the tourniquet. The statement does not suggest that the application was successful in stopping the bleeding or saving his life. “I sent David to the house to fix the leak”. Doesn’t say how David fixed the leak.

 

[una_fides]

Protestants insist that they are united in the essentials or fundamentals. And yet they don’t agree on what the fundmentals are. They say that revolutions eat their own children, and this has been true in the case of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther was the one that started it, and now many contemporary Protestants would label him a a teacher of “works righteousness” for believing in baptismal regeneration, confession and absolution, and loss of salvation. And if loss of salvation is “works righteousnss”, that means that Pentecostals, Methodists, Nazarenes, Mennonites and Amish, Lutherans, Nazarenes, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. do not really teach faith alone. That’s more than half of Protestantism.

In Protestantism, each man is basically a law unto himself. Everyone of them claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit when they interpret Scripture and yet they end up with contradictory conclusions. It happened within the first two decades of the Protestant Reformation (Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Calvin, Anabaptists) and it continues today. All I know is that God is not the author of this confusion.

God Bless,
Michael

[sign]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints (1 Cor 14:33)[/sign]

 

[una_fides]

I believe from Scripture that we do sin; something God does not like or make us do. With that said; three things come to mind;

1. Romans 8:28 “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.”

This would include a believers sin!

So you believe that God controls your will to get you saved but then let’s go and let’s you continue to sin afterward but at the same time you believe that he wouldn’t let you fall away from the faith or persist in grave sin because then you would not be one of the elect in the first place and would have never really been saved? Sounds quite confusing to me.

 

[Tanner9188]

You make claims based on an erroneous interpretation of Scripture and do not really address the Scripture passages that contradict you. If what you claim is so, then please explain to us how King Solomon, who was regenerated, TURNED AWAY from the Lord - he FORSOOK God - and fell into gross idolatry? Please explain how CHRISTISNS can desert Him who called the by grace and be severed from Christ and fall from grace (Galatians 1:5,5:4)? Please explain how someone who has believed, repented, enligtened, tasted of the heavenly gift of salvation, made PARTAKER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and sanctified by blood of Christ can fall away (Hebrews 6 & 10)? Please explain how a true Christian’s action can cause another true Christian to stumble and* perish *(1 Corinthians 8)? Please explain the following:

Romans 11:20-22

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

If all those who believe have absolute assurance of salvation, then why should they fear being cut off? Why should they fear not continuing in His goodness if they have absolute assurance of their perseverance in His goodness? Why should they fear that God may not spare them if they have absolute assurance that He has already spared them? The doctrine of eternal security makes total nonsense of this verse and a number of other verses.

The impression I get from your posts is that you do not really read our posts or consider our arguments. I apologize if this is not true, but that is the impression I get. You rarely address the verses presented to you and instead cite other verses and somehow think that your interpretation of these verses override those that contradict it.

God Bless,
Michael

**I read you posts, but your understanding of Scripture an d the time to correct all is wrong would take hours upon hours, which I do not have. Plus as i said before I have be bombarded. Whenever you say i have no interpretation or it is on my own; I have a rule that “I ignore the ridiculous”. Solomon was reconciled to God; yes He walked away just as David did; yet God said of David that he was a man of God’s own heart. All these true believers that sin against God; God will and does chasten them until they return to the narrow way. Furthermore, all things, including one’s sin, work together for good to those who love God. I don’t ignore your posts, but until you receive the Holy Spirit by having a true heart of repentance and pleading with God rather than following the precepts of man, then it is like trying to get through a brick wall 3 feet thick with a rubber spoon. therefore; i stick to the word of god and allow him to do the rest. t is not personal; i know the gospel, i know the plan of salvation, I know the future. Why? Because I am a true child of God, a new creation in Christ Jesus. Speaking of the future; people better get there act together because we are not far from the economic collapse spoken of in Revelation and the coming for His own before the great tribulation period starts; nothing else needs to happen.

God bless you friend!
**

 

[una_fides]

Again; I had the preconceived notion that if I just believed in God, which I have since childhood and was a “good” person, then I would be in heaven. Not till I began in ernest, then came across Matthew 7:13-14; did I realize there is much more to knowing God and more importantly God knowing and loving you. I Asked, Seeked and Knocked again and again and cried my heart out to God because I realized I was at His total mercy and nothing in me could change that. This is when God moved in my life and once I accepted God’s will and not mine; God kept His promise and gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit and my life at that point began to change. He took good friends that were not good for me spiritually right out of my life; He showed me how to grow through His word toward the love and compassion for Him and for others. I was lead to many different churches which at first appeared to be lead by God, but was actually built by men. As I grew in knowledge and understanding and continually prayed He would increase my faith and discernment and love for Him and others; then He lead me to a church to which He is building and has given me the privileged to minister to others. I was able to see what I thought were good deeds for Him, but He showed me the selfish motives that were still lurking; now I do things that i don’t even think about; I just do them, then look back and see it was God working through me and not of my own. It is an amazing transformation, but it is just as God says.

Tanner,

I share a very similar conversion story. I was a terrible teenager, but converted back to protestantism around 18. I wanted to serve God and do what was right so I did that as best I could in the way I had been raised to believe was correct. I went to a famous protestant university that was “Bible based” hard core even. It was there, as a history major, that I became interested in the history of the Church and the early Church fathers (not from the professors by any means or at least they did not intentionally stir up such interest as they were very anti-Catholic). Through an in depth study of the Church fathers, different teachings from various protestant sects, Catholic theology, and Scripture, while begging God to guide me to the fullness of truth and not let anything hold me back, I came to realize that the Church from its onset was one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic. She had a hierarchy and settled matters of dispute through Church Councils, just as the apostles did in Scripture. She held firm to the teachings she received from the apostles, and she herself canonized Scripture. Without her, we do not have a canon nor would we even begin to guess as to what individual letters circulating around the early Church were inspired, nor would we even think to ask if they were. The individual books of the Bible do not have a preface that say “This book of ___ is inspired by God”, etc. We only know they are because the early Church fathers organized them into a whole and compiled them into a canon at the local Church Council of Carthage in AD 397. Why would we trust these successors to the apostles to infallibly get it right concerning which books should be in the Bible and which should not–as there was a strong debate over many of the books and many that did not make it–but not trust them on other matters of doctrines. They studied and understood the Scriptures they compiled, and their understandings were not unique only to those fathers in Carthage, but the whole universal Church understood them that way.

I believe that God is drawing you to this same Church. I believe he draws everyone to the fullness of the truth. We must continue to humbly beg for his light, and be willing to forsake everything, especially ourselves and our preconceived beliefs and notions for the sake of Christ and his truth. If we take a step back and really think about the origins and the early development of the Church, it only makes sense that these initial Christians would be preserving that message they received from the apostles and for which very many of them gave their lives to defend and preserve. The pillar and foundation of truth according to the Holy Spirit is not Scripture but is the Church (1 Tim 3:15).

 

[erikd]

38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will be overthrown:
39 but if it is of God, ye will not be able to overthrow them; lest haply ye be found even to be fighting against God.
Acts 5:38-39

If you compare the history of Protestant denominations, non-denominations, etc. with the 2000 year history of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and apply these two verses, can you picture a parallel?

God Bless

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner,

I share a very similar conversion story. I was a terrible teenager, but converted back to protestantism around 18. I wanted to serve God and do what was right so I did that as best I could in the way I had been raised to believe was correct. I went to a famous protestant university that was “Bible based” hard core even. It was there, as a history major, that I became interested in the history of the Church and the early Church fathers (not from the professors by any means or at least they did not intentionally stir up such interest as they were very anti-Catholic). Through an in depth study of the Church fathers, different teachings from various protestant sects, Catholic theology, and Scripture, while begging God to guide me to the fullness of truth and not let anything hold me back, I came to realize that the Church from its onset was one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic. She had a hierarchy and settled matters of dispute through Church Councils, just as the apostles did in Scripture. She held firm to the teachings she received from the apostles, and she herself canonized Scripture. Without her, we do not have a canon nor would we even begin to guess as to what individual letters circulating around the early Church were inspired, nor would we even think to ask if they were. The individual books of the Bible do not have a preface that say “This book of ___ is inspired by God”, etc. We only know they are because the early Church fathers organized them into a whole and compiled them into a canon at the local Church Council of Carthage in AD 397. Why would we trust these successors to the apostles to infallibly get it right concerning which books should be in the Bible and which should not–as there was a strong debate over many of the books and many that did not make it–but not trust them on other matters of doctrines. They studied and understood the Scriptures they compiled, and their understandings were not unique only to those fathers in Carthage, but the whole universal Church understood them that way.

I believe that God is drawing you to this same Church. I believe he draws everyone to the fullness of the truth. We must continue to humbly beg for his light, and be willing to forsake everything, especially ourselves and our preconceived beliefs and notions for the sake of Christ and his truth. If we take a step back and really think about the origins and the early development of the Church, it only makes sense that these initial Christians would be preserving that message they received from the apostles and for which very many of them gave their lives to defend and preserve. The pillar and foundation of truth according to the Holy Spirit is not Scripture but is the Church (1 Tim 3:15).

**
Good morning and God bless you this day!

What was the name of the college you went to?

I do not see any similarities as you do; based on the results. I’m not insulting you; just making a observation. You see; God used His word to call me; whereas you took an interest in history and turned you back on the word of God in my opinion only. You became introlled with the early church history as given by the Church. The earliest church fathers, the apostles and God; did not celebrate the Lord’s supper with literal flesh and blood as the Acts 2 speaks of:
42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they {began} selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. "

Several things to note in this these passages; 1) No flesh was broken and no mention of wine; only literal bread. 2) No priest mentioned 3) it was small and house to house 4) no mention of water baptism; yet they were being saved and 5) It was the Lord adding to the number; no mention of Peter adding to the church; only the Lord builds His church. A lack of something does not mean it did not happen; to rove a negative you have to have all the knowledge that exists and that would be God. However, you would think based on what you believe must happen or be present that at least 1 or 2 of the 5 listed would be there…don’t you?

As far as you last paragraph; you would think that the Apostles or other NT writers, the true church fathers, would mention these activities you celebrate at least a few times if not many times, but it is silent.

God bless you!**

 

[Tanner9188]

38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will be overthrown:
39 but if it is of God, ye will not be able to overthrow them; lest haply ye be found even to be fighting against God.
Acts 5:38-39

If you compare the history of Protestant denominations, non-denominations, etc. with the 2000 year history of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and apply these two verses, can you picture a parallel?

God Bless

You are correct in some respect. Let me ask you a few questions? Is God a respecter of persons? Acts 10 "34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand {now} that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

If this does not convince you that He doesn’t respect a “Church” built by men or “Denominations” built by men; then nothing will.

Do you think He shows partiality to religious organization such as your; or any other denominations? Nope!

He tells you what God requires; it is not complicated as you all make it to be; for Hi syoke is easy and HIs burden is light - not heavy!
Gal 2
" 6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)–well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter {had been} to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in {his} apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars"

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner,

I share a very similar conversion story. I was a terrible teenager, but converted back to protestantism around 18. I wanted to serve God and do what was right so I did that as best I could in the way I had been raised to believe was correct. I went to a famous protestant university that was “Bible based” hard core even. It was there, as a history major, that I became interested in the history of the Church and the early Church fathers (not from the professors by any means or at least they did not intentionally stir up such interest as they were very anti-Catholic). Through an in depth study of the Church fathers, different teachings from various protestant sects, Catholic theology, and Scripture, while begging God to guide me to the fullness of truth and not let anything hold me back, I came to realize that the Church from its onset was one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic. She had a hierarchy and settled matters of dispute through Church Councils, just as the apostles did in Scripture. She held firm to the teachings she received from the apostles, and she herself canonized Scripture. Without her, we do not have a canon nor would we even begin to guess as to what individual letters circulating around the early Church were inspired, nor would we even think to ask if they were. The individual books of the Bible do not have a preface that say “This book of ___ is inspired by God”, etc. We only know they are because the early Church fathers organized them into a whole and compiled them into a canon at the local Church Council of Carthage in AD 397. Why would we trust these successors to the apostles to infallibly get it right concerning which books should be in the Bible and which should not–as there was a strong debate over many of the books and many that did not make it–but not trust them on other matters of doctrines. They studied and understood the Scriptures they compiled, and their understandings were not unique only to those fathers in Carthage, but the whole universal Church understood them that way.

I believe that God is drawing you to this same Church. I believe he draws everyone to the fullness of the truth. We must continue to humbly beg for his light, and be willing to forsake everything, especially ourselves and our preconceived beliefs and notions for the sake of Christ and his truth. If we take a step back and really think about the origins and the early development of the Church, it only makes sense that these initial Christians would be preserving that message they received from the apostles and for which very many of them gave their lives to defend and preserve. The pillar and foundation of truth according to the Holy Spirit is not Scripture but is the Church (1 Tim 3:15).

I wanted to add one more comment about the passage in Acts; notice the people were selling things to help others; why is the Roman Catholic Church the wealthiest institution in the world? They make Bill Gates look like a peasant. That has always bothered me; because it seems to be the opposite approach of building treasures in heaven. Since I don’t know the reason I cannot comment; other than what I just said because it more of a thought that makes me wonder why because it doesn’t make much since to me.

 

[Tanner9188]

una_fides:
So you believe that God controls your will to get you saved but then let’s go and let’s you continue to sin afterward but at the same time you believe that he wouldn’t let you fall away from the faith or persist in grave sin because then you would not be one of the elect in the first place and would have never really been saved? Sounds quite confusing to me.
**Nope! You are reading into what I stated. When you are in obedience to the Lordship of Christ; guess what? Your will is the same as His will. If you fall into sin; God will either let it go because you conscience brings to back to God; remember the Holy Spirit leads and guides those who are in Christ. He will chasten you. In some cases He will bring you into the kingdom; meaning He will kill you. As I said before the child of God’s free-will is to sin, but the child will be convicted very quickly. If He were to continue to sin, say like infidelity, then you can count on being severely chastened and a guilt would lie on that person until He came back to the straight path or God may just that that person out of this world. Once you are a true child, then you remain forever. true children want to please the Father; this is one of the manifestation in the life of a believer. you will not have a continuous unbroken pattern of sin if you are a true child.

You are asking because you are wondering if you yourself are a true child or not. I
cannot answer that.
God bless you !**

 

[teak421]

**I read you posts, but your understanding of Scripture an d the time to correct all is wrong would take hours upon hours, which I do not have. Plus as i said before I have be bombarded. Whenever you say i have no interpretation or it is on my own; I have a rule that “I ignore the ridiculous”. Solomon was reconciled to God; yes He walked away just as David did; yet God said of David that he was a man of God’s own heart. All these true believers that sin against God; God will and does chasten them until they return to the narrow way. Furthermore, all things, including one’s sin, work together for good to those who love God. I don’t ignore your posts, but until you receive the Holy Spirit by having a true heart of repentance and pleading with God rather than following the precepts of man, then it is like trying to get through a brick wall 3 feet thick with a rubber spoon. therefore; i stick to the word of god and allow him to do the rest. t is not personal; i know the gospel, i know the plan of salvation, I know the future. Why? Because I am a true child of God, a new creation in Christ Jesus. Speaking of the future; people better get there act together because we are not far from the economic collapse spoken of in Revelation and the coming for His own before the great tribulation period starts; nothing else needs to happen.

God bless you friend!
**

Can you read Greek?

• Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

I would love to see what a Calvinist does with that verse… Sure they have a good explanation.

• Michael

**Teak, It would depend on the person you asked and their willingness to address all that statement entails. It is not the “easy believism” that most in this forum espouse. " whoever believes in Him" is a statement that encompasses all that Christ is; similar statement you will find and gives a tiny peak as to what I am saying
John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

What does it encompass to “believe in His name”? The little extra is “as many as received Him” What does that mean?

Last example of many possible :
John 20:31 “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” The underlined phrase combines the two.

The point without going to all the detail to which it entails: to believe and believe in His name is more than a verbal statement of profession. There are many people who look at it that way and it would be a mistake that would lead one to hell.

God bless; maybe when i have more time I will expound on this in a great deal of detail.**

 

[teak421]

**
Good morning and God bless you this day!

What was the name of the college you went to?

I do not see any similarities as you do; based on the results. I’m not insulting you; just making a observation. You see; God used His word to call me; whereas you took an interest in history and turned you back on the word of God in my opinion only. You became introlled with the early church history as given by the Church. The earliest church fathers, the apostles and God; did not celebrate the Lord’s supper with literal flesh and blood as the Acts 2 speaks of:
42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer**. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they {began} selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. "

Several things to note in this these passages; 1) No flesh was broken and no mention of wine; only literal bread. 2) No priest mentioned 3) it was small and house to house 4) no mention of water baptism; yet they were being saved and 5) It was the Lord adding to the number; no mention of Peter adding to the church; only the Lord builds His church. A lack of something does not mean it did not happen; to rove a negative you have to have all the knowledge that exists and that would be God. However, you would think based on what you believe must happen or be present that at least 1 or 2 of the 5 listed would be there…don’t you?

As far as you last paragraph; you would think that the Apostles or other NT writers, the true church fathers, would mention these activities you celebrate at least a few times if not many times, but it is silent.

God bless you!

Tanner,

One thing that I’ve seen is a tone that is certainly not showing love and charity towards your neighbor. And for that, I am truly sadden for you because you seem to have some knowledge (or your own understanding), but your knowledge is not profitable because you do not show love.

I will pray for you with two things: one, that you are not “leaning on your own understanding…” and two, “that God grants you the Wisdom to know what is right or wrong”.

Please do the same for me.

• Michael