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erikd
Guest
I would love to hear your story. Welcome home brother.
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teak421
Guest
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erikd
Guest
AMEN Onenow1:thumbsup:Quote =onenow1 I guess some people think Jesus dropped the bible down to us directly from heaven. The sad thing fhat I don’t think they recognize is Jesus had to come down as a man to teach the apostles His commands. Jesus[God] always used man to relay his messages:shrug:
Peace, onenow1opcorn:
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onenow1
Guest
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teak421
Guest
I’ll prolly post on my blog when I complete it… I’ll post the direct link. Take Care!I as well !
Peace,onenow1
- michael
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Tanner9188
Guest
**It is called special revelation; remember the Apostles and other disciples were with the Lord for 3 years and remember the promise that Jesus would send the "helper AKA: holy Spirit, and He would bring all things into remembrance; these were eventually written down by people inspired by the Holy Spirit. The OT had been in print, not mass production since there was no printing presses, but the scrolls were read aloud and expounded by the leaders at the synagogues. The Holy Spirit authored every word; which were written down by men. As far as which books were to be included; again the Holy Spirit was at work and a set of standards were determined under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and even after this there remained some confusion, but over a fairly short period of time the canonization was complete. However there are some religions that decided to add some books to the Bible that did not meet the canonization test putforth by the Holy Spirit. We know this is true because one of the books, which I will not mention, specifically states it is not inspired and some of the other books contain historical and geographical errors, which was one of the main hallmarks in determining the cannon as inspired by the Author.
On doctrines; their is but one truth to a doctrine; but that one truth can have multiple applications. For example, Romans 1:18-32 (or end of ch 1) gives one truth, which is the wrath of abandonment and the steps that both an individual or nation goes through. This could also apply to a group on individuals in a specific church. Sampson would be a perfect example of an individual, our nation is at the 3rd step. Israel would be another example; however God will eventually redeem a remnant of them during the tribulation period; so they are a little extra special.
On your last statement is pure and erroneous conjecture on your part because to put an entire bunch of people into a single category as it were fact. The problem is as Scripture teaches; you put 10,000 randomly chosen Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists and the rest into a room and you will come away with a few or small group that will come with a consistent and correct interpretation of a doctrine; like can a true believer lose their salvation? The rest will have a multitude of answers and reasons and all will cite passages in Scripture and or other outside sources and all believe they have it right.
There are two main reasons for this; First and foremost; only the truly regenerate person who has the resident Holy Spirit to lead to all truth will have the correct answer because the Bible says that there are two paths marked heaven, but only one actually goes there and on the narrow path; the Holy Spirit is the their resident guide and are the few. On the other hand; the group that is all over the map have not truly believed in Christ and all that encompasses and do not have the resident guide; therefore they rely on their own man made precepts and self righteousness in interpreting the Scripture and they are the “many”, which are on the broad road that leads to final destruction although it was marked heaven. Do a word study in the NT on the ket words “few” and “many”; then you will know what I am speaking of. Also, the word remnant is also a good key word to use for the OT and NT.
Hope that answers your question and God bless you and thanks for asking!**
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teak421
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teak421
Guest
Let me remove some conjecture for you:
- Assembly of God believes that one could lose salvation.
- Southern Baptist believe in eternal security and you can not lose your salvation.
- Calvinist believe that we have no free-will and are elected before the dawn of time to either heaven or hell
- Pentecostal Holiness believes you must speak in tongues or you are not saved.
- Apolistic Church of God believes that you must be baptized in the name of Jesus ONLY in order to be saved.
- Michael
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onenow1
Guest
Quote=onenow1 May I suggest this bible quote from Malchi.
“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down thereof My name
has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered
to My Name, and a Pure Offering: for My Name is great among the
Gentiles, saith the Lord Almighty.”
Malachias 1:11,
Septuagint
Quote= onenow1. How many other churches in the world comply with this message of Malchi; taken from the word of God. In fact how many others can comply? In the Catholic Church, Mass and the Eucharist are offered up everyday of the week, all around the world.
Peace onenow1
opcorn:
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erikd
Guest
You’re right, the Holy Spirit was at work, but as “onenow1” pointed out in post 539, God used man to relay His messages. As a matter of fact, all of Scripture was written down much the same way. So, my question is who was being led by the Holy Spirit to produce this list, when did it happen, and how many Books were included? Teak 421 asked you a similar question in post 541 so we’re all very curious. Also, which religions decided to add Books and how many did they add? Also, do you know of any that took Books away? Just curious.
God Bless
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Tanner9188
Guest
**No; Only God is infallible; including every word He has uttered. Listen to the words of Peter:
“and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
Initially Peter is speaking of future things, but then He includes all of Scripture.
Blessings!**
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Tanner9188
Guest
**Let me reiterate your erroneous assumptions again:
On your last statement is pure and erroneous conjecture on your part because to put an entire bunch of people into a single category as it were fact. The problem is as Scripture teaches; you put 10,000 randomly chosen Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists and the rest into a room and you will come away with a few or small group that will come with a consistent and correct interpretation of a doctrine; like can a true believer lose their salvation? The rest will have a multitude of answers and reasons and all will cite passages in Scripture and or other outside sources and all believe they have it right.
There are two main reasons for this; First and foremost; only the truly regenerate person who has the resident Holy Spirit to lead to all truth will have the correct answer because the Bible says that there are two paths marked heaven, but only one actually goes there and on the narrow path; the Holy Spirit is the their resident guide and are the few. On the other hand; the group that is all over the map have not truly believed in Christ and all that encompasses and do not have the resident guide; therefore they rely on their own man made precepts and self righteousness in interpreting the Scripture and they are the “many”, which are on the broad road that leads to final destruction although it was marked heaven. Do a word study in the NT on the ket words “few” and “many”; then you will know what I am speaking of. Also, the word remnant is also a good key word to use for the OT and NT.
In addition, just like Catholics, there are divisions within each group. Some Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues; others do not as an example. Just as some Catholics buy into the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception, while others don’t.
It always will come back to the truth of Scripture that says their is the few and the many and the few are always the remnant; it is in terms of religious people claiming Christ; not outright non-believers.
I have to go for now; I will try to come back later tonight and finish up.**
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onenow1
Guest
Quote=onenow 1. Indeed ! And this verse tells it all. John 21: 24-25 This disciple is the one who vouches for these things and has written them down, and we know that his testimony is true. There was much else that Jesus did;if it were written down in detail.I do not suppose the whole world could itself hold all the books that would be written.
The traditions of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church instituted by Christ Himself,
continues to Shepherd the Church along with the Holy Spirit, three persons in one Triune God.
Matt. 28: 18 and Jesus came to them and said all authority in heaven and earth are given to me, go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them all that I have commanded you; and lo I Am with you to the close of the age.
John 21: 24-25 pretty telling don’t ya think ?
Peace, onenow 1
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, Tanner
Quote =Tanner. it always will come back to the truth of Scripture that says their is the few and the many and the few are always the remnant; it is in terms of religious people claiming Christ; not outright non-believers.
Quote= onenow1. This is how catholics see it ! It comes down to Authority, and who Jesus gave the authority to: and He gave that authority to the Church.
Peace,onenow1
Quote =Tanner. it always will come back to the truth of Scripture that says their is the few and the many and the few are always the remnant; it is in terms of religious people claiming Christ; not outright non-believers.
Quote= onenow1. This is how catholics see it ! It comes down to Authority, and who Jesus gave the authority to: and He gave that authority to the Church.
Peace,onenow1
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teak421
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una_fides
Guest
Tanner,
You are absolutely right that the Holy Spirit was at work in guiding the early Church fathers to determine the books in Scripture by establishing certain tests that they themselves applied to each book. As you may know, the first time the NT books were compiled together into one unified canon was in AD 397 at the Council of Carthage. I certainly agree that the fathers at Carthage had the guidance of the Holy Spirit in making these determinations, and as you later stated in your post only a truly regenerate person will be able to be led to the correct answer on matters of faith, and I’m sure you and I both agree that these fathers were led to the correct answer concerning the books in the New Testament as well as the rules by which they came to determine which books fit into that NT.
If we believe that the Holy Spirit guided these individuals to determine and to canonize Scripture then wouldn’t it make sense that the same Holy Spirit would have guided them on other matters as well? If He is able to preserve them from error in determining a canon, then couldn’t he preserve them from error on other matters? You see the Holy Spirit does just that. When the leaders of his Church gathered together in a Council, just as we have recorded in the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit guided them to their conclusions and preserves them from error whenever a controversy arises.
You and I would both agree that Christ established a Church when he was on earth and that Church was led by the apostles. The key to realize is that the Church did not die with them; it continued and has continued throughout history, and she has preserved the teachings of the apostles through both the written Scriptures and apostolic Tradition that was handed down orally to the apostles and their successors. The two most certainly do agree, but we must start by examining the teachings of the fathers and the Church and then see if the Scriptures can be found to be in agreement, but we most certainly cannot approach with preconceived notions of dogmas that we cannot trace in history to any time before AD 1000 and presume that the apostles intended to communicate what those doctrines are saying. We must be careful and humbly beg God for light from heaven in these matters and be completely willing to empty ourselves of everything for the sake of Christ and his truth.
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teak421
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Tanner, how much more specific do I need to get? I can go to their web sites and get their doctrinal statements if you want?
- Michael
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teak421
Guest
How did this special revelation get transmitted? Because there was no Bible at the time… it was through oral TRADITION.
- Michael
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soflochristmas
Guest
Praise Jesus and welcome home.
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twb1621
Guest
In order to be able to understand a passage of the Bible one must be aware of:
In what form it was written, e.g., prose, poetry, history, etc. (Literary Form)
Why it was written.
When it was written.
What is the whole book about?
What is the meaning of each word?
How does it fit in with other parts of the Bible on the same subject?
The Old Testament is organized under three major headings:
The Law - this is the first in importance and consists of the first five books.
The Prophets - this consists of the preaching attributed to the prophets and their writings and the Books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings.
The Writings - this consists of the remainder of the Old Testament.
The Bible is God’s gift to us. The Bible is God’s love letter to His people. It was written over many centuries and contains different kinds of writing. We all need help to interpret what is being said in the different books. The Catholic Church offers that help.
Since the Bible is not one book, but a library of books, there are many different kinds of writing in these books, e.g., prose, proverbs, parables, prophesy, prayers, poetry, (narrative hymns), legends, legal documents, letters, sermons, songs, stories, etc. This is called Literary Form.
To refer to a fact that most non-Catholics hate to hear, and directly related to the rebuttal of the establishment of the bible, the Bible and the canons were organized and established for the teaching of the Catholic Faith by the Catholic Church, period. The Bible doesn’t contain all there is, it requires the teacher. It was taken out of its element to be used to establish another person’s opinions and edited and altered regardless of what one labels it as. One speaks reverently of the Bible being the inspired word of God but doesn’t defend it being altered or edited over 1000 years after its establishment. If the Septuagint and the Vetus Itala and the Latin Vulgate and every other succeeding Vulgate where good enough for Jesus, the Apostles and the Church fathers and successors to use as the correct resources, who 1500 years later qualifies to change or edit that? If you are expert in algebra and I hand you a book on astrophysics without the teaching of one who has the skills to teach the subject, how well would you do interpreting and formulating? Yet I see no support for the majority of the rebuttals and twisted interpretations commonly presented… Another “for instance”, when referring to Saint Jerome and the Latin Vulgate, Catholics refer to Him as “Saint” yet others usually wont. The Latin Vulgate generated from the Vetus Itala, the Septuagint. Church Fathers? Quote after quote supports the teachings of scripture with Sacred Tradition, they support the Catholic Church as the one true Church founded by Jesus and Jesus proclaimed it would NEVER fail, so it goes. God reveals to His church as time goes on which is why although nothing is reduced in its teachings , clarity increases as God deems appropriate.
Regarding the Deuterocanonicals, this might give a starting point;
Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:
Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.
Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”
Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.
Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.
Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.
Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).
Continued next Post.
In what form it was written, e.g., prose, poetry, history, etc. (Literary Form)
Why it was written.
When it was written.
What is the whole book about?
What is the meaning of each word?
How does it fit in with other parts of the Bible on the same subject?
The Old Testament is organized under three major headings:
The Law - this is the first in importance and consists of the first five books.
The Prophets - this consists of the preaching attributed to the prophets and their writings and the Books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings.
The Writings - this consists of the remainder of the Old Testament.
The Bible is God’s gift to us. The Bible is God’s love letter to His people. It was written over many centuries and contains different kinds of writing. We all need help to interpret what is being said in the different books. The Catholic Church offers that help.
Since the Bible is not one book, but a library of books, there are many different kinds of writing in these books, e.g., prose, proverbs, parables, prophesy, prayers, poetry, (narrative hymns), legends, legal documents, letters, sermons, songs, stories, etc. This is called Literary Form.
To refer to a fact that most non-Catholics hate to hear, and directly related to the rebuttal of the establishment of the bible, the Bible and the canons were organized and established for the teaching of the Catholic Faith by the Catholic Church, period. The Bible doesn’t contain all there is, it requires the teacher. It was taken out of its element to be used to establish another person’s opinions and edited and altered regardless of what one labels it as. One speaks reverently of the Bible being the inspired word of God but doesn’t defend it being altered or edited over 1000 years after its establishment. If the Septuagint and the Vetus Itala and the Latin Vulgate and every other succeeding Vulgate where good enough for Jesus, the Apostles and the Church fathers and successors to use as the correct resources, who 1500 years later qualifies to change or edit that? If you are expert in algebra and I hand you a book on astrophysics without the teaching of one who has the skills to teach the subject, how well would you do interpreting and formulating? Yet I see no support for the majority of the rebuttals and twisted interpretations commonly presented… Another “for instance”, when referring to Saint Jerome and the Latin Vulgate, Catholics refer to Him as “Saint” yet others usually wont. The Latin Vulgate generated from the Vetus Itala, the Septuagint. Church Fathers? Quote after quote supports the teachings of scripture with Sacred Tradition, they support the Catholic Church as the one true Church founded by Jesus and Jesus proclaimed it would NEVER fail, so it goes. God reveals to His church as time goes on which is why although nothing is reduced in its teachings , clarity increases as God deems appropriate.
Regarding the Deuterocanonicals, this might give a starting point;
Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:
Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.
Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”
Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.
Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.
Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.
Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).
Continued next Post.
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