How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[PEPCIS]

According to the Bible, one can have saving faith that does not bear fruit

2 Peter 1:5-9

**5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith **virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Peter does not say that he who lacks these things (virtue, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love), never had true faith. He says he who lacks these things “has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.” This means that the person had true faith.

Well, it works BOTH WAYS. We could not say that he did not have true faith, and you cannot say that he did. Only Jesus can. However, we are commanded to treat such a person as if he were a heathen.

 

[Kortyr]

The bible over and over saids salvation is a free gift from God…its free…just accept it…but we must accept it thru faith in christ jesus…then everything else kicks in as sign of that faith…and that includes obedience to all the things he commands us to do. If you say you are a christian and refused to get water baptised…I would question your faith.

What you’re saying is that people are robots. Once we accept faith, things just kick in and we run on automatic pilot…getting baptized, obeying His commandments. No, that’s not how it works. We believe in Christ, and that faith is made alive by our getting baptized, doing good works, obeying His commandments on our own free will. Those things do not just “happen” because we have faith. We must choose to do them. If we don’t, our faith is dead.

 

[jean8]

I am wondering what the Catholic response is when Protestants site John 3:16(“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”) in support of their “saved by faith alone” belief.

Jn.3:16 is sometimes referred to as 'The Little Gospel." I read that somewhere.
However, we are being sanctified daily. We are also called to be holy as our Lord is holy.
When a person thinks about this task, Jn.3;16 tells us this is the beginning of our christian walk with the Lord. The gift of faith is wonderful, but being holy is a prayful work for us all. Think of the Ten Commandments. If we break one , we have broken them all. I heard this somewhere also. is this true?
Please read Phil. 2:12-13, Heb.10:24-31, 2Pet.2;20-21 btw, these are notes from a booklet written by Patrick Madrid. Heb,10:26 should get your attention.
Lets pray for one another.

God bless you,
jean

 

[thechristian]

What you’re saying is that people are robots. Once we accept faith, things just kick in and we run on automatic pilot…getting baptized, obeying His commandments. No, that’s not how it works. We believe in Christ, and that faith is made alive by our getting baptized, doing good works, obeying His commandments on our own free will. Those things do not just “happen” because we have faith. We must choose to do them. If we don’t, our faith is dead.

You can’t accept faith on your own…it is a gift of God…Yes that’s what faith does in christ it adds everything else. Without faith what is baptisum anyways…it means nothing. If you don’t have spirtural faith (not worldy faith) everything is meanigless baptisum, obeying commanments, ect. Yes our faith is dead…my exact words…I think I have been saying
thatn haven’t I.

God loves you…God bless

 

[PEPCIS]

What you’re saying is that people are robots. Once we accept faith, things just kick in and we run on automatic pilot…getting baptized, obeying His commandments. No, that’s not how it works. We believe in Christ, and that faith is made alive by our getting baptized, doing good works, obeying His commandments on our own free will. Those things do not just “happen” because we have faith. We must choose to do them. If we don’t, our faith is dead.

No, works do not determine faith. Faith determines our works. Works is a result of faith. Faith is not a result of works.

 

[mikeledes]

You make the same mistake as most Christians, equating works as a means of salvation, instead of properly understanding works to be a product of faith. This is CLEARLY taught in such places as Matt. 7:21, because it is obvious that there are “works of righteousness” - works which are produced by honest, true faith - and “works of evil” which are works produced from the heart of man.

In order to know which works are worthy, you must know what produces them. Since our hearts are desperately wicked, and no one knows them better than Jesus, then it stands to reason that Jesus will judge our hearts, NOT OUR WORKS, because He declares “I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity”!!

The works that these people had performed were good works and deeds (at least they are outwardly appearing to be good works and deeds). But when Jesus sees them on the last day, He will judge with righteous judgment and see past the works and into the heart of man.

And what works do you think Catholics consider “works of righteousness?” The works of righteousness are those works which have as their motive faith and love and done in a a state of grace.

I have a question. Is confessing with the mouth a work?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Well, it works BOTH WAYS. We could not say that he did not have true faith, and you cannot say that he did. Only Jesus can. However, we are commanded to treat such a person as if he were a heathen.

The issue is that many Protestants claim that the faith that saves is the faith that works. This they say in order to reconcile Sola Fide with James 2. However, what happens in the case of a true faith that doesn’t work, as in the passage I cited?

My point is that works or lack of works does not mean that a person’s faith is genuine or not.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What you’re saying is that people are robots. Once we accept faith, things just kick in and we run on automatic pilot…getting baptized, obeying His commandments. No, that’s not how it works. We believe in Christ, and that faith is made alive by our getting baptized, doing good works, obeying His commandments on our own free will. Those things do not just “happen” because we have faith. We must choose to do them. If we don’t, our faith is dead.

You can’t accept faith on your own…it is a gift of God…Yes that’s what faith does in christ it adds everything else. Without faith what is baptisum anyways…it means nothing. If you don’t have spirtural faith (not worldy faith) everything is meanigless baptisum, obeying commanments, ect. Yes our faith is dead…my exact words…I think I have been saying
thatn haven’t I.

God loves you…God bless

So the person in 2 Peter 1:9 who has been cleansed from their old sins an yet lacks all those qualities listed in the previous verses has a worldly faith? Please explain how one can be cleansed of their old sins through a wordly or dead faith?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[una_fides]

I know. I didn’t say that they weren’t in the Bible. I simply said that just because they are in the Bible doesn’t mean that it means that “faith alone” means that you can work your way to heaven.

Catholics do not believe you can “work your way to heaven.” In fact, any good works done outside of Christ have no merit at all. Many baptists think that the Catholic Church teaches that if they do a certain amount of good works then they will get into heaven. The Catholic Church does not teach this at all. We are saved by faith working through charity (Gal 5:6; Eph 3:17, 6:23).

The Universal Church of Jesus wasn’t confused on the issue. The Catholic church was confused, and that was because they stuck their head in a toilet and preached indulgences and other garbage in order to fill their coffers.

The only Church around for the first 1500 years was clearly Catholic. There were no methodists, baptists, pentecostals, or any of the other tens of thousands of sects around until after the reformation, though some of their heresies did originate somewhat earlier such as the denial of Christ’s divinity, etc. Regarding indulgences, please read these articles:
catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609fea3.asp
catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp

It probably doesn’t make sense to most catholics because catholics refuse to acknowledge that the flow of information in the first 1500 years was controlled by the Catholics, and they didn’t want a regular guy to own a Bible. What do you expect? (facetiousnous)

The Church did not keep the Bible from people. Quite the contrary. You fail to realize that before the printing press, it was no easy task in getting the Bible to the common uneducated person (who couldn’t read it anyway as literacy rates were extremely low back then). Only rich educated people could afford to purchase Bibles because of the length of time it took scribes to copy them by hand.
Here’s an article that will explain more: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711clas.asp

On a side note, how do you even know the books in your Bible are inspired? Who told you they were? Did you know that those books were compiled and canonized by the Catholic Church, and that the original list of books from the earliest concils in which they were compiled actually contained the books you would call “apocrypha,” which Catholics referr to as “deuterocanonical” (i.e. Macabees, Wisdom, etc).
Here’s an article on that incase you’re interested: catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806fea2.asp

The only one deficient in understanding is you. I will quote from the Lumen Gentium [Latin for “Light of Nations”], which is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. This Dogmatic Constitution was made public and promoted as official Church doctrine by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, following approval by the assembled bishops by a vote of 2,151 to 5.

[sign]“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”[/sign]

You need to study Catholic teachings more thoroughly, as he clearly was.

Two things, first Vatican II was not infallible, though it did have the potential to teach infallilbly. Pope Paul VI explained that the Council did not invoke infallibilty in definiting any dogmas of the faith. General Councils are only infallible when they define dogmas that must be believed. Vatican II was merely summarizing and trying to restate prior teachings in new ways more applicable to the times. That said, even if the teaching did have the level of infallibility attached to it–which again I and Paul VI do not believe it did–that does not mean you are understanding it correctly in light of the Church’s prior teachings on the matter. I explained how the statement must be understood as pertaining to profession and not as to pertainging to worshipping the same God in truth.

Here, let me help you out there, C H R I S Tian. CHRISTians serve the God, JESUS CHRIST. Do Muslims serve Jesus Christ? Do Jews serve Jesus Christ? No. They do not serve the same God that we serve. Please don’t tell me that you serve the same god that they serve.

Thank you for your sarcastic comments. It all makes much more sense to me now that you’ve spelled out the word Christian for me. How could I have possibly missed that.
Do you believe that the Jews in Scripture did not worship the true God because they did not have the revelation pertaining to the Trinity?
We are getting well off topic on this discussion of Muslims worshipping the true God, so if you’d like to start a new thread or join one in progress on this subject, be my guest.

 

[mikeledes]

The only one deficient in understanding is you. I will quote from the Lumen Gentium [Latin for “Light of Nations”], which is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. This Dogmatic Constitution was made public and promoted as official Church doctrine by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, following approval by the assembled bishops by a vote of 2,151 to 5.

[SIGN]“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”[/SIGN].

This really should be the subject for another thread so I’m not going to get into a prolonged discussion on this issue. But this reminds me of the following verse:

Acts 17:23

** 23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.**

Here, Paul says that the pagan and polytheistic Greeks worshipped the God he was about to proclaim to them. They did not worship Him with knowledge, but they worshipped Him nonetheless. The mere fact that the Coucil said that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics does not mean that Muslims worship him in Spirit and in truth or that the Muslim religion is a true religion.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mgull]

The thing I can’t stand about evangelicals is that they teach this false idea or heresy that after you have faith, the way James describes it, then there is nothing you can do and they good works will just start flowing out of you, like Jimmy Swaggart or Ted Haggard.

What’s interesting to me is one verse that just jumps out at me and that is the last verse in chapter 4 of James. Why would he state that passage if he, according to the evangelical’s poor exegesis, he had previously written that from having faith you will just produce good works?

The thing about faith and works is this: due to our belief and acceptance of the Word(Jesus) God will give us Grace with that Grace there are many things that we not only can do but must do, things are expected from us Christians and if things weren’t expected of us then the entire Bible would serve no purpose. As Catholics we recognize that there is nothing we can do on our own accord to have that faith and to get that Grace, we believe in Christ and God allows us to partake in the sacraments that He gave his Church.

 

[thechristian]

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

God so loved the world (man) that he gave (scraficed) is only his only son (Jesus) so that
everyone (Man) who beliveve in him (Jesus) will not perish (spirtural death) but have eternal
life (salvation).

The words in brackets do not appear in scripture but are used for explanational purposes only.

This is so easy to grasp, my 7 year son understands it.

The answer to the question is LOVE.

 

[mikeledes]

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

God so loved the world (man) that he gave (scraficed) is only his only son (Jesus) so that
everyone (Man) who beliveve in him (Jesus) will not perish (spirtural death) but have eternal
life (salvation).

The words in brackets do not appear in scripture but are used for explanational purposes only.

This is so easy to grasp, my 7 year son understands it.

The answer to the question is LOVE.

Amen! What I don’t grasp is faith alone. I believe that we a justified by gace through a faith that works through* love *(Galatians 5:6). Jesus also said:

John 8:51

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

God Bless,
Michael

 

[thechristian]

Maybe love is keeping his…

 

[mikeledes]

Maybe love is keeping his…

Amen! That’s why the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace through fides caritate formate. In other words, faith united to or informed by love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[thechristian]

I can agree with that 100% they teach at my church also…I fellowship at an envangelico fundamentalist church…calvery chapel.

Peace and blessings

 

[jcrichton]

Hi everyone and God Bless you. First let me say what a pleasure it to “meet” Catholics who can actually quote scripture in defense of their faith. It is not something I am used to. Most Catholics I speak to attribute everything they know to tradition.

However, in response to the quote from Mark 10:17-27 I was taught that the reason Jesus had that man sell his possessions, and give it away, was because this young man “loved his money.” That is evidenced by his response and the fact that he went away, and did not follow Christ. Mark 10:24 states “…how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!” This young man placed his money before his desire to follow Christ.

To my knowledge there are no contradictions, of any sort, in the Bible. The whole, of the Bible, is a perfect harmony. We are called to good works to show the “new nature” created by salvation. They are ordained not to accomplish salvation, but to demonstrate it. Also please see 1 Peter 2:12 as another reason for good works.

Please help! I don’t, as a non-Catholic, understand the belief that the Catholic church is the sole authority in Scriptural interpretation and application.

I think that if you begin by reading the ancient writings (no not those of the 16th century–the original ancient writings from the first and second centuries) coupled with the study Holy Scriptures, from a non-baised position, you will gain much understanding…

One of the arguments that I find common to most non-Catholic Christians is their rejection of Church history; they seem to want to believe that the Holy Spirit laid dormant for nearly fifteen hundred years only to inspire a myriad of “churches” of Christ, each with their own brand of philosophical and theological doctrines… they rejection of the succession of the Apostles is counter historical since the Church was founded by Christ to exist throughout time till His Parousia… by rejecting Christ’s founded Church they make themselves the authority as they create doctrines based on private interpretation of Scriptures–they obey man rather than God… something quite complexing being that most subscribe, in one form or another, to the “sola Scriptura” conviction.

I invite you to do one of several things (keeping in mind that it is best to pose one question, or several questions that are directly related, at a time):

• start a thread to discuss one theme/query at a time
• visit EWTN’s or the Vatican’s resources
• contact me and/or others through this site’s PM
• contac me and/or others direct through e-mail

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mikeledes]

I can agree with that 100% they teach at my church also…I fellowship at an envangelico fundamentalist church…calvery chapel.

Peace and blessings

I’ve heard of that church before.

Many Protestants misunderstand what we mean when we say that we are not saved by faith alone. We uphold that a faith that is by itself cannot save (James 2:15-17) and that’s why we affirm that the faith that saves is formed faith (fides formata), that is, a faith that is united to and animated by the love of God. And since love is as necessary for salvation as faith, we do not believe that we are saved by faith alone.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=337641

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=339712

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jcrichton]

Coming from a Baptist background, I don’t think that passages like John 3:36 are the ideal way to back them up. I agree with the belief that both faith and works are necessary for salvation, but I don’t feel like Protestants will be reached by this method of persuasion. The problem with this particular passage is that the King James and NIV versions of the Bible used by most Protestants read: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” and "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.’’ respectively. Neither of these mention the obedience aspect. This would, to my mind, preclude Protestants who read Scripture from following the argument that has been spelled out here.

The first, and most simply stated, passage which comes to my mind is James 2:17: “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Likewise, James 2:24 which states, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2 is replete with references to faith & works as necessary for salvation. In all versions that I know of, the text reads the same. Using the Protestant interpretations of scripture seems to me to be the only way to reach out and show them the unbiblical nature of the “faith alone” doctrine.

I am not a Catholic, but am exploring the Faith. Please feel free to send me an email or private message with any advice or comments you might have to offer. Thanks.

Hi!

Welcomed to the forum!

I fully understand what you are saying… the schism between the West and East (Church) originated from a conflict that arose from just such interpretational differences… what I find truly sad is that most of the conflicts in Chritendom seem to be of the Chinese kunfu movies plot: lots of emotional attachments, very little actual substance, and loads of suspicion; Jesus may have spoken on this when He stated that the Kingdom of Heaven is for such as children–children are thirsty for knowledge, they are trusting, obedient to their instructors, and have a huge capacity for Love and forgiveness…

I am happy that you are contemplating entering the Body of Christ–please feel free to direct your questions on this site–you can also PM or email me with your queries and I will do my best to assist you.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Could someone explain to me and maybe give me a few verses on how works are necessary for salvation?

I think that part of the problem you may have in understand the necessity of works is that you may be thinking of the works of the Mosaic Law, which cannot save, with the works of the Spirit in the Believers; perhaps I might be able to help:

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. (St. James 2:8-11)

Clearly there is a difference between the works which reflect Salvation and the works of the Law.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (St. James 2:14-17)

St. James statement is very succinct: Faith requires a physical demonstration of the “royal Law:” Love! When queried Jesus stated that there is one Commandment which is the first (Love the Lord God) and a second which is of secondary importance (Love your neighbor as yourself) and that in these two Commandment the Law is fulfilled. Yet, Love is not a “feel good/wish well” sentiment that Christians to profess:

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 St. John 4:7-8)

But God did not merely state that He Loved us… He actually brought that “feeling” into physical fruition:

9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. (1 St. John 4:9-10)

This is the “works” that must accompany “Faith” in order to demonstrated that we abide in Christ and are working out our Salvation:

11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 St. John 4:11-16)

Jesus equates Love with Obedience to Him and He states that Love must be active and physically demonstrated:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (St. Matthew 25:31-46)

St. Paul, understanding this very relationship between Salvation, Faith, and Love, warns that:

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Finally, Jesus gives us the deepest definition of Love:

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Faith alone is empty!

Maran atha!

Angel