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jcrichton
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That is a very generous definition… but Jesus uses a more compact form; He states that if we Love Him we must Obey His Commandment–that we must abide in Him!
…anyone seeking truth and goodness outside of Jesus is not truly seeking Truth, since Jesus is the Truth and goodness is to the eyes of God is not merely being able to do or think good things… just check out what Jesus tells the 72 He sent out:
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” 18He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (St. Luke 10:16-20)
Clearly, anyone who not knowing Yahweh God performs dutifully, according to what God has written in his/her heart, the goodness that is required of the people of God is in essence received as a child of God:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Romans 2:12-16)
However, it is quite difficult to do God’s Will when we live apart from God:
i.e.: Today’s North American culture prides itself in being humane and loving as it cares for all animals (specially dogs and cats), rescuing and nurturing them in an effort to keep them from suffering, dying or being extinct… this is extremely good… yet, we have a leader of state that is not satisfied with the prowes of the abortion machinery in the US and has offered financial support for a world-wide program of abortion-on-demand! It seems that our society’s goodwill has a price: the most innocent of human sacrifices: the fruit of the woman’s womb!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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…that would be like saying that God will only hold Gentiles/Pagans accountable for their sins but not the “Believers” because Jesus died on the Cross for past, present, and future sins…
It was Jesus Himself that pronounced:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (St. Matthew 7:21)
Is St. Paul contradicting Jesus? No! He simply has a greater understanding of what it means to call Jesus “Lord” and to “Believe:”
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
St. Paul understands that to proclaim the Lord’s name means to be Jesus’ servant and that none can state that he/she Believes in Jesus as his/her Lord without the Grace of the Holy Trinity.
Conversely, Scriptures does attest that there Faith stands alone… but not as a measure of Salvation but as a means to exist in God:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Further Scriptures warns against self-deception:
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (St. James 2:18-19)
St. James tells us that it is good to Believe–yet, we must be willing and able to go at it even further than acquiescing to God’s Existence!:
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (St. James 2:19-24)
Our Faith must be demonstrative of our Obedience to Christ not only for our personal edification but especially for the edification of the Mystical Body of Christ and the world at large.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, Alex B.!
I fully concur with you!
If we simply state that this or that means that we are saved or that it means by “x” alone we could be running into a heap of trouble…
Just look at the following rendering:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (St. John 3:16-18)
- verse 16: believe in the Son = eternal life
- verse 17: the Son saves the world
- verse 18a: believers in the Son are not condemned
- verse 18b: nonbelievers are condemned because they did not believe in the Son’s name
When we read further into the passage (verses 19-21) we get a greater perspective the Son’s world-wide Salvation:
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Jesus did indeed come to Save the world… but man maintains his right to choose to accept God’s Salvation:
Romans 10:16
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
…and the very first chapter of St. John’s Gospels demonstrates that though Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life, not all choose to Believe (Obey and Abide in Christ):
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (St. John 1:10-12)
…so we cannot seek a “blanket-stament” to Salvation or hook our wagon to a catch phrase that would secure our Faith/Belief.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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jcrichton
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I am glad that you awoke from the sleep of doing it your way… I too wonder about Luther… years ago I saw a take on the reform (pbs 13 NY); the program stated that Luther took refuge with some monarch and that the political and religious mêlée that ensued cost the lives of 300,000 people–I wonder if he began to realize how wrong he was and how dark was the cloud that he had released onto the world?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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You are exalting a man that deconstructed the Sacred Writings and who called the Epistle of St. James an espistle of hay (or something to that fact) and you are ignoring that from its inception the “reformation” detracted from Scriptures, rebuke the only Church founded by Christ, rejected its own leader/s; recreated itself according to the various personal “feelings” attributed to leadership of the Holy Spirit and today continues to recreate its theologies… there are over 30,000 brides of Christ while the Scriptures speak of only One; there are a myriad of contradicting doctrines which profess to have the Holy Spirit and Christ as their Spiritual Head while continuing to reproduce the culture of “reformation” throughout the world…I think that there is error on both sides of the debate (protestants and catholics). But mostly, I see error on the catholic side.
To begin with, it is not enough to state that “Nowhere in the Bible are the words “faith alone.”” That well may be true, but it doesn’t make the belief that faith alone is unnecessary a true belief.
After all, it was Luther who came to this realization in the reading of Paul’s epistle to the Romans that resulted in his Protestant epiphany that “the just shall live by faith” means that nothing else is required for heaven except faith. The “live” in this context is spiritual life, not to be confused with earthly rewards or benefits, though there are oftentimes worldly benefits achieved through godly living.
Secondly, Catholics have grave difficulties in understanding salvation, when their own papal declarations have pronounced that Musliims worship the same God as Christians do.
There are many things necessary for salvation, but none of them are derived from the works/efforts/minds of humans - though they do find their expression in human acts. That’s because faith alone can supply us with the benefits of salvation, and this is accomplished SOLELY by God’s grace.
…about the Pope… could you demonstrate through actual quotation where the Pope has stated that Christians and Muslems have the same God?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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So your understanding that faith without action is useless means that faith alone saves?
Are you truly that delusional?
St. James just told you that having Faith without taking any action to support it is empty–he even cautioned you that it is good to Believe in God (that God exists) but that it is not enough cause even the demons believe that there’s but One God… they refuse to Obey; they refuse to subject their wills to God’s Will!
Faith alone is empty–Jesus calls us to abide in Him and to demonstrate this through action by accepting and Obeying Him!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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jcrichton
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jcrichton
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So, are you suggesting that St. Peter desires that we aspire to attain an empty Faith?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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You truly must be reading a special version of Scriptures:
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
1 Corinthians 3:8
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
Revelation 22:11-12
11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
While it is true that God does not judge by appearance but rather, as He is like a two-edge sword which cuts into our inner most being, by our hearts, the fact is that we are expected to maintain a behavior that reflects that Salvation which we claim to have attained:
Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven
…and that judgment will come upon us is inevitable:
35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (St. Matthew 12:35-37)
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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So your 7 year old son understand that he is auto saved with no responsibility nothing else to do but quote some prayer that says he is saved?
Maran atha!
Angel
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PioYapJr
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It is amazing that a seemingly simple bible passage could generate such a bewildering comments and countercomments. Everytime I open a thread like this, I become thankful that with our tendency to make things complicated, God created a body that can sort out this kind of confusions with an assurance of His guidance.
If I were not a Catholic, I would surely feel the need to have a body, like the Supreme Court, who could give the final decision on matters pertaining to the constitution.
God in His wisdom is providing us with such a body to give us an unerring guidance in matters more important than a country’s constitution. Thinking about it as a Catholic I am thrilled that it is and has been with us, very much alive after 2,000 years of existence. God is giving it to us because this function to teach (among others) is necessary. Look at how we become conflicted with such a seemingly simple passage as John 3:16!
If I were not a Catholic, I would surely feel the need to have a body, like the Supreme Court, who could give the final decision on matters pertaining to the constitution.
God in His wisdom is providing us with such a body to give us an unerring guidance in matters more important than a country’s constitution. Thinking about it as a Catholic I am thrilled that it is and has been with us, very much alive after 2,000 years of existence. God is giving it to us because this function to teach (among others) is necessary. Look at how we become conflicted with such a seemingly simple passage as John 3:16!
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PEPCIS
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"PEPCIS:
mikeledes:
Yet this must be reconciled with Romans 10:9, 10 which says, in part, that “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus…”
The reconciliation is found in the fact that the confession must be genuine. People can give FALSE confessions, and they can give FALSE works. False works are the product of a FALSE confession. “A good tree CANNOT put forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree put forth good fruit.” (Matt. 7:18)
The Catholic position is that you MUST do “good” works to enter into heaven. But Jesus said Himself that not all those who have done good works and called Jesus “Lord” will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only those who have done the will of His Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21) True, good and saving works are ONLY produced by good and saving faith. Jesus knows the difference. Do you?
EVERYTHING that man does is a “work.” Each “work” is produced either by faith in God, or by faith in Man. Jesus said, “Not everyone who says unto me “Lord, Lord” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” That “confession” will not get you into heaven.
Yet this must be reconciled with Romans 10:9, 10 which says, in part, that “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus…”
The reconciliation is found in the fact that the confession must be genuine. People can give FALSE confessions, and they can give FALSE works. False works are the product of a FALSE confession. “A good tree CANNOT put forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree put forth good fruit.” (Matt. 7:18)
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It is much more than a “Protestant” claim. It is a Biblical claim.
There is no such thing as a “true faith that doesn’t work.” You’re doing two things wrong:
*]not reconciling this passage with James;
*]and not remembering that James says that faith without works is D-E-A-D. If you truly want to be in keeping with James (which you claim that Protestants don’t), then you need to acknowledge that you cannot reconcile this passage with James 2, and continue to keep the same understanding as you do.
mikeledes:
You are Biblically wrong. Jesus CONTINUALLY reminds us in His own words that you MUST WORK to gain entrance into heaven. You claim that Peter says the opposite? Either Jesus is wrong, or you are interpreting Peter wrong.
The problem in your interpretation of Peter is that you think that “forgotten” means that someone really forgot that he “got saved.” But actually, in this context, it means that you never had any original event of salvation to remember. Someone who has “forgotten” is the same as someone who has NOTHING TO REMEMBER, and that’s what that means.
Notice what Peter says: "For if these things “these things” are things that are ADDED to faith] are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . "
Your assumption is that there is such a thing as DEAD faith. But as we have seen in the rest of the Bible, specifically Jesus’ teachings, there is no such thing as a person who inherits the kingdom of God without any works produced by saving faith.
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PEPCIS
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Please. It is more than abundantly clear that the Catholic church teaches that whether or not someone goes to heaven is based on whether or not that person dies in a state of grace. In other words, if that person is not producing good works to indicate his state of grace, and he dies without receiving the “last rites”, he will have died outside of grace.
I’m not sure how it is that Catholics can say with a straight face that they do not believe that you must work your way to get to heaven, and then out of the other side of their mouth claim that they do not believe that once you are saved, that you are always saved.
una fides:
That’s playing with words. To claim that the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works” gets you into heaven is supposed to mean that Catholics don’t believe you have to work to get to heaven. That would be a blatant misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches, because even though the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works will get you into heaven,” they do believe that good works is the ONLY way to ensure that you are getting to heaven.
The problem with this approach is that it fools many people into THINKING that just because they are a “good” person, and that they do many “good” works, that they will be insured getting into heaven. But “many will say to [Jesus] in that day, Have I not done many wonderful works in thy name”, and then [He] will say to them, 'Depart from me, you workers of evil." (Matthew 7)
I refuse to get into a contest on this subject, especially since it’s off topic. It’s clear that Protestants disagree vehemently with Catholics regarding this.
Poppycock. The Catholic Church worked aggressively in keeping any translation into the common language from being promulgated among the people. They claimed that they did this because they felt the translations were “inferior”, but the reality was that the translations invariably carried anti-Catholic sympathies which they felt they needed to squelch.
No, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about keeping the people in ignorance. In today’s church, (both Catholic and Protestant) if someone couldn’t read, they’d actually teach them to read, and then the first thing they’d put into their hands would be a Bible.
What I’m talking about is the fact that the Catholic Church worked tirelessly keeping English translations from being disseminated and used by anyone who could read. While it is true that the common man could not read, there were many learned men who could. This was who the Catholic Church did not want to get a hold of any English versions.
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PEPCIS
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I’m gonna have to cut you short there. The point is NOT whether or not the Vatican II was infallible or not. The point is that this is WHAT THEY TEACH. The sad fact, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, is that the MAJORITY of the Catholic Church teaches this.
ian. CHRISTians serve the God, JESUS CHRIST. Do Muslims serve Jesus Christ? Do Jews serve Jesus Christ? No. They do not serve the same God that we serve. Please don’t tell me that you serve the same god that they serve.PEPCIS said:
una fides:
Thank you for your sarcastic comments. It all makes much more sense to me now that you’ve spelled out the word Christian for me. How could I have possibly missed that.
Sometimes, if you want to get someone’s attention, you got to use a 2 X 4.
una fides:
Of course not. The Jews worshipped Jesus Christ in the Old Testament period. At least, that is what the Bible teaches.
una fides:
No thanks.
And on an end note, please don’t take anything I’ve said too personally. Of course it’s “personal”, but because I don’t have the luxury of face-to-face discourse, I sometimes use certain literary tools (such as sarcasm) that tend to be taken as if hatred were accompanying it. That is not the case. I don’t doubt your faith, or your committment to Christ. While I certainly count you as a brother in Christ, there are some grave differences which we have.
Peace and Love to you!!
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PEPCIS
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True, this is getting way off topic, but the point is that the Catholic Church has many teachings which are not correct. You’ll notice that una fides is happy to simply state that this is not an “official” teaching of the Church. And even what you have stated COULD be wrongly interpreted to mean that Paul was talking to a bunch of people who worshiped the same God and would end up in heaven just like us because they worship the same God.
You have to be extremely careful to not only make mention that they “worship the same God” but that Paul was trying to teach them what they lacked - a proper understanding of who that God is, so that they could come to the knowledge of saving faith.
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PEPCIS
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Whoa, Nellie!!! Take it easy there! It isn’t just “evangelicals” who try to say that. There are many Catholics that I’ve run up against that would say similar things.
Most evangelicals would not say any such thing. Most Catholics would not say anything like that either. The truth is that what Protestants teach is that True, saving faith will produce true, saving works. Will you ALWAYS produce good saving works? Of course not. But you will produce an abundance of good fruit. As Jesus said, “A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and neither can an evil tree produce good fruit.”
But that doesn’t mean that you can grow an apple tree that will produce 100% perfect apples. There will always be some apples to throw into the cull barrell.
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